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The Jabbawookie

We Should Talk About Ravager

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Over the past few weeks, I’ve come to believe a variety of SSD build may be an oppressive force on the game.  (Ironic to put it above a thread with opposite viewpoint, I know.)

(1.  Let’s start by defining the general build.  It’s an Assault Prototype with Ravager, Jerjerrod/Piett, the obvious stuff like DCO and Kallus, filled turbolasers, and Intel Officer.  Maybe two Gozantis, or maybe one and a 30-odd point bid.

(2. There are definitely high-damage lists that can kill it, but the ability to throw 7 dice out the side arc at long range causes every other archetype in the game to lose firepower more quickly than Ravager in combat.  In my mind, the question isn’t whether this narrows fleetbuilding options, but to what extent.

(3. Similarly, the resistance to raid tokens weakens the mechanic and combos that otherwise might like to leave the binder (such as Rex/Kanan.)  This could prove a problem down the road as well if FFG attempts to breathe more life into Raid, as RitR would imply.

(4. The lack of ECM doesn’t pose a significant problem when you can take Intel Officer and engage in a braceless fight against something with half the hull.  (What dial control?  If you didn’t manage to one-shot the slicer tools at long range, it’s okay.  You’ll kill them next activation.)

(5. Due to the fact Rebel generics are generally effective and the aces have decent hull, they can do solid work.  But due to H9s, Imperial scatter aces get shredded, even when they strafe and retreat to long range.

(6. The mirror matchup translates poorly to competitive play.  Due to the number of dice being thrown and the difficulty of escape, an SSD will almost always die if both players choose to fight.  This is almost guaranteed to be an 8-3 or 10-1, which fails to reflect close games.*  This is exacerbated by the general desire of an Assault Prototype list to take objectives that favor positioning or defense token restoration over points.

[Edit:] (7.  According to @Truthiness's data so far, 20% of Imperial lists utilized an Assault Prototype, which jumps to 27% of winning Imperial lists.  Jerry SSDs?  27%.  Since the Command Refit is at 0%, we know that every Prime-winning SSD thus far has been an Assault Prototype with Jerjerrod.  Number of winning Imperial lists with 3 deployments?  The connection may involve a little speculation, but it sure is 27% again.  For comparison, Imperial large ships (only ISDs, Germany aside) were in 51% of fleets and also composed 27% of winning Imperial lists, which is a massive jump downward.

I have several ideas for possible solutions:

(Suggested by friends:) Errata Jerjerrod to only work on ships with a command value of 3 or lower, in the same fashion as Raddus.  This would reduce the substantial threat range of Ravager while giving Piett the limelight.  The Command Refit could also gain popularity thanks to Take Evasive Action.

Errata Ravager to only work when resolving a single concentrate fire token.  

Errata H9s not to work on flak.

Errata crippling to use the formula (hull damage / total hull), rounded up.  This keeps MoV reasonable while still allowing the SSD to change MoV through repairs and forcing enemy fleets to work through 20 shields.

Errata raid tokens and allow matching commands on the same ship.  This would not only present a potential threat to the SSD, but do it through a somewhat unloved collection of cards.

Edited by The Jabbawookie
*Anecdotally, I tabled a friend’s almost identical SSD build while healing down to 10 hull damage for the 10-1.  My friend then proceeded to do the exact same thing against another SSD list.

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4 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

(Suggested by friends:) Errata Jerjerrod to only work on ships with a command value of 3 or lower, in the same fashion as Raddus.  This would reduce the substantial threat range of Ravager while giving Piett the limelight.  The Command Refit could also gain popularity thanks to Take Evasive Action.

Errata Ravager to only work when resolving a single concentrate fire token.  

Errata H9s not to work on flak.

Errata crippling to use the formula (hull damage / total hull), rounded up.  This keeps MoV reasonable while still allowing the SSD to change MoV through repairs and forcing enemy fleets to work through 20 shields.

Errata raid tokens and allow matching commands on the same ship.  This would not only present a potential threat to the SSD, but do it through a somewhat unloved collection of cards.

Since Motti is already cut out of the equation for huge ships I'd rather not see JJ removed completely too. Rather downgrade his ability to 1 Yaw for huge ships. 

As for ravager resolving tokens, I thought it could only resolve one token per activation?

H9s could make sense, maybe just bump the cost? (on the other hand anecdotally SSDs are awfully weak to squads.)

I agree with crippling changes.

Not sure with the raid tokens. 


 

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We have one thread talking about how the SSD is underpowered in 400 point games and this thread saying the SSD (with Ravager) is overpowered and needs changes.

So with these opposite viewpoints, we can conclude the SSD is perfectly balanced as it is and needs no changes. Case closed. 😉

Edited by Derpzilla88

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12 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Since Motti is already cut out of the equation for huge ships I'd rather not see JJ removed completely too. Rather downgrade his ability to 1 Yaw for huge ships. 

As for ravager resolving tokens, I thought it could only resolve one token per activation?
 

That's an interesting idea.  I like it.  And sorry, to be more clear: no using Ravager on dial + token commands.  Which would slightly lower the amount of firepower it could bring to bear in a single activation or shot.

6 minutes ago, geek19 said:

The Starhawk is going to show soon and it rips through supers pretty well. Concentrating 3 shots into the same arc (if we include salvo as a shot) can REALLY mess some things up. I'm not denying it's a beast to fight, but let's see how it is post wave 8 release?

That's kind of the problem though.  Even if the Starhawk (and we're probably talking about Agate here too) absolutely wrecks SSDs, to the point where they're a bad choice to bring to a Prime or similar event... you'll still need to think about the SSD and have an answer to it.  Because it might show up.

An archetype needs to be pretty hot garbage before it doesn't leave a mark on the metagame.

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7 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

We have one thread talking about how the SSD is underpowered in 400 point games and this thread saying the SSD (with Ravager) is overpowered and needs changes.

So with these opposite viewpoints, we can conclude the SSD is perfectly balanced as it is an needs no changes. Case closed. 😉

Perfectly balanced as all things should be? (Snaps fingers, rips Ravager in half)

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3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

no using Ravager on dial + token commands.

I'd be willing to meet halfway with this one, raise the cost. The effect isn't particularly powerful itself, other ships use similar effects for similar costs, but in conjunction with the ship it's on 4 points seems cheap. At the very least a solid price raise could make the choice between quality officer selection and a high bid tougher.

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1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Even if the Starhawk (and we're probably talking about Agate here too) absolutely wrecks SSDs, to the point where they're a bad choice to bring to a Prime or similar event... you'll still need to think about the SSD and have an answer to it.  Because it might show up.

An archetype needs to be pretty hot garbage before it doesn't leave a mark on the metagame.

All fleets need answers, though. Like, Rieekan Aces/sloane/generic squads all need answers. MSU needs an answer, big heavy needs an answer. I'm not claiming that it's fine and doesnt need changes, I'm just trying to get a better argument from you.

Right NOW it's been released into the wild and it's easy counters are....still on the boat. But looking at your issues/points:

1) no disagreement on the build. Theres slightly different flavors, but I'm not getting bogged down in "well the TRUE pain in the neck has XYZ."

2) here's where I disagree. Not every other archetype. En masse y wings, squad builds with Gallant haven or Biggs balls, etc. Long range MSU or Arquitens or Cymoons etc. Not everything is dying as fast, especially as I'm hopefully moving in and out of range.

3) resistant but not immune. Raid screws over Piett, and if you can get 3/4 to stick, they can clear ONE or they can clear ALL with a dial, not with multiple tokens. Minor point but worth noting. Which means no moving shields and crazy bananas con fire dice amounts.

4) my Assault Frigate with ECM only needs the brace on the second shot. 7 damage SUCKS alright, but that's 2 shield zones. Brace and redirect the second shot, losing it with intel if you have to, and keep pouring damage in. 

5) Sloane multiple aces has issues. Yes. Is that a bug or a feature? Tycho/shara has issues too, but I'm not sure that's a problem mentioned, although its identical. 

6) the mirror is bad because both have concentrated all their firepower into one ship. If you have Demo or a raider nearby or whatever...

Your main point (I swear I'm not mad at you or anything, you just happened to start the thread and I'm VERY BUSY at work, haha) is that its constraining builds. But with the Regionals data, we're seeing a lot of viable builds. Slash, we're not seeing LESS builds than before. So is it that it's a strong build or is it that we're still learning the best counters?

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18 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'll also say if you post up in its front left or right arc, it ain't turning that direction. Now how you USE that is another question...

Very true. I think the biggest issue with countering the turning ability of the SSD is people have a very hard time visualizing a ship that size turning from the middle.  You get out of that front the SSD is babytown frolics. 

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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1 hour ago, geek19 said:

All fleets need answers, though. Like, Rieekan Aces/sloane/generic squads all need answers. MSU needs an answer, big heavy needs an answer. I'm not claiming that it's fine and doesnt need changes, I'm just trying to get a better argument from you.

Right NOW it's been released into the wild and it's easy counters are....still on the boat. But looking at your issues/points:

1) no disagreement on the build. Theres slightly different flavors, but I'm not getting bogged down in "well the TRUE pain in the neck has XYZ."

2) here's where I disagree. Not every other archetype. En masse y wings, squad builds with Gallant haven or Biggs balls, etc. Long range MSU or Arquitens or Cymoons etc. Not everything is dying as fast, especially as I'm hopefully moving in and out of range.

With first player, I can agree somewhat.  I've played two games with en masse Y-wings and they worked well enough if you didn't command them, but MSU is a pretty perfect example.  A CR90 or Hammerhead can be one-shotted at any attack range, which is a decrease in firepower for that fleet.  Dipping in and out of range works pretty well against non-JJ builds, but a speed 2 Jerjerrod turn extends the reach of the side arc by more than the length of a medium range ruler.  So you'd generally need to be shooting at long, then moving to beyond long + medium (some angular change in there too, but it follows anything trying to slip by the sides.)  A Jerjerrod Arquitens or CR90A can make that, barely, but it puts the MSU player at a severe disadvantage to keep 5-7 ships in that safe zone while preventing the SSD from killing 1-2 and turning the other way, especially with 3-4 opposing activations at the start of the game.

3) resistant but not immune. Raid screws over Piett, and if you can get 3/4 to stick, they can clear ONE or they can clear ALL with a dial, not with multiple tokens. Minor point but worth noting. Which means no moving shields and crazy bananas con fire dice amounts.

This is true to an extent, but it would be equally reasonable to say Piett screws over Raid, clearing all the tokens each round while getting the dial he most wants or getting two dials.  And if it's not worth its points here, where command dials are at their most valuable short of perhaps a carrier fleet, that's a real kick in the shins to the mechanic.

4) my Assault Frigate with ECM only needs the brace on the second shot. 7 damage SUCKS alright, but that's 2 shield zones. Brace and redirect the second shot, losing it with intel if you have to, and keep pouring damage in.

Definitely fair with the Assault Frigate, which is well-suited to kiting/disengaging.  Probably brace or redirect on each attack, since QTCs or XI7s are likely involved.  But the point is, that next shot will end you without entering medium range.  Which most ships have to do to get value, whether through being front arc focused or due to battery.

5) Sloane multiple aces has issues. Yes. Is that a bug or a feature? Tycho/shara has issues too, but I'm not sure that's a problem mentioned, although its identical. 

They aren't an entire archetype; usually you either didn't invest too much into Shara and Tycho, or they're covering the beefier squadrons you brought to get work done.

6) the mirror is bad because both have concentrated all their firepower into one ship. If you have Demo or a raider nearby or whatever...

Your main point (I swear I'm not mad at you or anything, you just happened to start the thread and I'm VERY BUSY at work, haha) is that its constraining builds. But with the Regionals data, we're seeing a lot of viable builds. Slash, we're not seeing LESS builds than before. So is it that it's a strong build or is it that we're still learning the best counters?

This gets right to the heart of the matter.  It's entirely possible we simply haven't learned to fight it yet with certain fleets.  My biggest issue is the answers to it presently feel narrower than other archetypes, and most boil down to a whole new level of cat and mouse game with, IMO, a higher degree of skill required by the mouse.  I originally planned to start this after getting Truthiness's finalized data, which I will be sure to include here when available.  But it's definitely not too early to open discussion on what's been giving people trouble, whether changes would be good, and whether players have found answers in unexpected places.  I really appreciate your well thought-out responses (you've got me curious about seriously testing ranged MSU again, though I rest my case there is a strong skill floor disparity there, if nothing else.)

 

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I have two issues with the SSD and have mentioned them many times already.

1) I dont like point fortressing as it makes for "unfair" tournament results. The crippling of the SSD doesnt really help as it can still continue shooting, navigating and repairing at its full capacity even if crippled, often spelling utter desaster (tabling) for the opponent that engages it. In the recent Polish Prime Stream a player on the top table was tabled because Ravager one shotted an almost fresh mc75 (yes it didnt have a brave left but still).

2) Jerjerrod cannot be allowed to continue to work with the SSD. I get the collective outcry of SSD Imperials everywhere, but it soo easily, cheaply and completely counteracts the SSDs only real weakness (i am not counting the lack of ECMs due to already mentioned reasons). The moves that are possible as a result make concentrated shooting of a hull zone pointless as it jumps from short to long range in a flash. Blocking its turns by stuffing a ship in its side is also not feasible as the Ravager side arcs are also brutal. Finally, the cost of Jerry is greatly reduced if a ship as so many hull zones and shields

Edited by RapidReload

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A game called Golem Arcana had these 'colossal' size miniatures that could be used for standard play.   My favorite was Jagara, reminds me of the SSD in Armada - points fortress, great abilities, hard to take down.

Every 25% loss of health, it would lose one of its four abilities, weakening its attack power over time. 

Yes you get half points for a crippled SSD but as others have said it loses none of its potency. Maybe when/if you cripple it or damage it every X damage cards, there should be a rule that it must discard one upgrade or gain a raid token of your opponents choice? 

 

 

 

 

images.jpeg

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2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

All fleets need answers, though. Like, Rieekan Aces/sloane/generic squads all need answers. MSU needs an answer, big heavy needs an answer. I'm not claiming that it's fine and doesnt need changes, I'm just trying to get a better argument from you.

Right NOW it's been released into the wild and it's easy counters are....still on the boat. But looking at your issues/points:

1) no disagreement on the build. Theres slightly different flavors, but I'm not getting bogged down in "well the TRUE pain in the neck has XYZ."

2) here's where I disagree. Not every other archetype. En masse y wings, squad builds with Gallant haven or Biggs balls, etc. Long range MSU or Arquitens or Cymoons etc. Not everything is dying as fast, especially as I'm hopefully moving in and out of range.

With first player, I can agree somewhat.  I've played two games with en masse Y-wings and they worked well enough if you didn't command them, but MSU is a pretty perfect example.  A CR90 or Hammerhead can be one-shotted at any attack range, which is a decrease in firepower for that fleet.  Dipping in and out of range works pretty well against non-JJ builds, but a speed 2 Jerjerrod turn extends the reach of the side arc by more than the length of a medium range ruler.  So you'd generally need to be shooting at long, then moving to beyond long + medium (some angular change in there too, but it follows anything trying to slip by the sides.)  A Jerjerrod Arquitens or CR90A can make that, barely, but it puts the MSU player at a severe disadvantage to keep 5-7 ships in that safe zone while preventing the SSD from killing 1-2 and turning the other way, especially with 3-4 opposing activations at the start of the game.

no doubt, yeah. MSU at medium range basically explodes, no disagreement.  I've had decent luck remaining at red range, which helps with the evades and the lack of QBTs (QBTs keeps seeming to be 4th place or so for best turbos on it.  doesnt mean its not there, but i dont mind slowrolling it if i have to).  MSU has a hard time if it gets into medium.... so i basically remain out of medium as much as possible.  Generally there's no Krennic (kallus, IO, DCO/Brunson take all the spots) so the red dice are either at the mercy of the roll (doesnt mean i havent been screwed alright) or SOMEONE is getting the axe for a reroll.  I've got some squads that my opponent wants kallus for, so it's just straight red rolls usually.

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

3) resistant but not immune. Raid screws over Piett, and if you can get 3/4 to stick, they can clear ONE or they can clear ALL with a dial, not with multiple tokens. Minor point but worth noting. Which means no moving shields and crazy bananas con fire dice amounts.

This is true to an extent, but it would be equally reasonable to say Piett screws over Raid, clearing all the tokens each round while getting the dial he most wants or getting two dials.  And if it's not worth its points here, where command dials are at their most valuable short of perhaps a carrier fleet, that's a real kick in the shins to the mechanic.

Raid is alright? its not amazing, but here we are.  i dont disagree that its harder to leave the binder, but Supers arent everywhere? (Unless they are in your meta, haha).  For this one, i'm just gonna say that i see your points and agree somewhat, but it's not worth getting lost in the REAL discussion for this part.

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

4) my Assault Frigate with ECM only needs the brace on the second shot. 7 damage SUCKS alright, but that's 2 shield zones. Brace and redirect the second shot, losing it with intel if you have to, and keep pouring damage in.

Definitely fair with the Assault Frigate, which is well-suited to kiting/disengaging.  Probably brace or redirect on each attack, since QTCs or XI7s are likely involved.  But the point is, that next shot will end you without entering medium range.  Which most ships have to do to get value, whether through being front arc focused or due to battery.

No, it doesnt end me though. Let's say i'm in long range and he con fires and IOs my brace and somehow gets great damage.  Evade the double, redirect the rest.  Roughly 4-5 or so, assuming you have ECM.  You NEED ECM, of course, and that DOES go back to your original point, but AF can take like 3 hits.  The second shot i'm forced to discard my brace, yes, but i should (barring INSANE rolls) be still alive or so.  Also helps with engineering on the way in as well.  I've got boarding troopers on mine, which is why im closing, but then im taking advantage of it.  No reason not to do the Paragon-Local Fire Control-ECM-LTTs Mk2A and just keep kiting.  Or theoretically Ackbar on an Ordnance 75 with Caitken and Shollan, etc.  Basically, if you're closing, have a reason to close.  Otherwise, keep kiting.

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

5) Sloane multiple aces has issues. Yes. Is that a bug or a feature? Tycho/shara has issues too, but I'm not sure that's a problem mentioned, although its identical. 

They aren't an entire archetype; usually you either didn't invest too much into Shara and Tycho, or they're covering the beefier squadrons you brought to get work done.

Same as Raid. No sense getting bogged down here for the meat of the discussion.

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

6) the mirror is bad because both have concentrated all their firepower into one ship. If you have Demo or a raider nearby or whatever...

Your main point (I swear I'm not mad at you or anything, you just happened to start the thread and I'm VERY BUSY at work, haha) is that its constraining builds. But with the Regionals data, we're seeing a lot of viable builds. Slash, we're not seeing LESS builds than before. So is it that it's a strong build or is it that we're still learning the best counters?

This gets right to the heart of the matter.  It's entirely possible we simply haven't learned to fight it yet with certain fleets.  My biggest issue is the answers to it presently feel narrower than other archetypes, and most boil down to a whole new level of cat and mouse game with, IMO, a higher degree of skill required by the mouse.  I originally planned to start this after getting Truthiness's finalized data, which I will be sure to include here when available.  But it's definitely not too early to open discussion on what's been giving people trouble, whether changes would be good, and whether players have found answers in unexpected places.  I really appreciate your well thought-out responses (you've got me curious about seriously testing ranged MSU again, though I rest my case there is a strong skill floor disparity there, if nothing else.)

Best tip that has really upped my game is use the whole deployment zone and get really finicky at navigating with your ships.  If you do a 1 click left-1 click right speed 2 movement, you can send whatever ship was directly behind it on the same path and they won't collide.  I've been starting on the literal back edge of the zone at speed 1 and letting them blow through me.  Turns 1 and 2 can sure be fast if i need to spend 5 and 6 killing them.

No part of it is easy, got that for SURE haha, but i enjoy the challenge.  Best tip is your list should focus on overloading: braces, contains, redirects, or its hull.  Brace overload is your typical big heavy list that delivers a heavy hitter, be it BTA or Home One and friends.  Contains is crit spam, through screed, toryn rerolls, yada yada, redirects is that en masse y-wings (meme: can't redirect to shields if you don't have any), and hull is straight up Ackbar or Mon Karren stuff, maybe intense XI7 usage overloading the redirects that way.  Its a bigger meaner star destroyer.  Kill it biggerer and meanerer?

And then there's just some fleets that CAN'T fight it, and either need to be reworked or retired.  I'm honestly not sure how Rieekan Aces would do against it, but it's an interesting idea to explore how to develop that into something new?

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As someone who may know a bit about the archetype in question, I'll provide a few thoughts on the topic.

5 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

(1.  Let’s start by defining the general build.  It’s an Assault Prototype with Ravager, Jerjerrod/Piett, the obvious stuff like DCO and Kallus, filled turbolasers, and Intel Officer.  Maybe two Gozantis, or maybe one and a 30-odd point bid.

Agreed in general, key components are: Assault/Ravager/Intel/two turbolasers, the rest may differ significantly.

(2. There are definitely high-damage lists that can kill it, but the ability to throw 7 dice out the side arc at long range causes every other archetype in the game to lose firepower more quickly than Ravager in combat.  In my mind, the question isn’t whether this narrows fleetbuilding options, but to what extent.

7? I can only see 6 unless you're talking about a pretty specific QBT/EA + QTC build (and relying on luck to get a red accuracy). It is true that any SSD list by definition loses firepower slower than any other list, however it has less _total_ initial firepower and no way to project it to multiple points.

(3. Similarly, the resistance to raid tokens weakens the mechanic and combos that otherwise might like to leave the binder (such as Rex/Kanan.)  This could prove a problem down the road as well if FFG attempts to breathe more life into Raid, as RitR would imply.

No disagreement, however unfortunately raid in general is weak. Other builds also can be made raid-resistant without any significant effort.

(4. The lack of ECM doesn’t pose a significant problem when you can take Intel Officer and engage in a braceless fight against something with half the hull.  (What dial control?  If you didn’t manage to one-shot the slicer tools at long range, it’s okay.  You’ll kill them next activation.)

On dial control: Cham Syndulla can easily ruin SSD day.

(5. Due to the fact Rebel generics are generally effective and the aces have decent hull, they can do solid work.  But due to H9s, Imperial scatter aces get shredded, even when they strafe and retreat to long range.

I would agree with @geek19 point - it may be a feature, not a bug. Imperials also do have generic heavy options (Mass decimators anyone?)

(6. The mirror matchup translates poorly to competitive play.  Due to the number of dice being thrown and the difficulty of escape, an SSD will almost always die if both players choose to fight.  This is almost guaranteed to be an 8-3 or 10-1, which fails to reflect close games.*  This is exacerbated by the general desire of an Assault Prototype list to take objectives that favor positioning or defense token restoration over points.

Not sure on this, as this is a case where player skill matters a lot. I would expect 10-1 in the case of significant skill discrepancy and anything between 6-5 and 8-3 otherwise.

[Edit:] (7.  According to @Truthiness's data so far, 20% of Imperial lists utilized an Assault Prototype, which jumps to 27% of winning Imperial lists.  Jerry SSDs?  27%.  Since the Command Refit is at 0%, we know that every Prime-winning SSD thus far has been an Assault Prototype with Jerjerrod.  Number of winning Imperial lists with 3 deployments?  The connection may involve a little speculation, but it sure is 27% again.  For comparison, Imperial large ships (only ISDs, Germany aside) were in 51% of fleets and also composed 27% of winning Imperial lists, which is a massive jump downward.

IMO it's Ravager/Intel/Assault. Jerry is there because he provides a marginal benefit over Piett or Thrawn and good players do tend to select an optimal choice.

I have several ideas for possible solutions:

(Suggested by friends:) Errata Jerjerrod to only work on ships with a command value of 3 or lower, in the same fashion as Raddus.  This would reduce the substantial threat range of Ravager while giving Piett the limelight.  The Command Refit could also gain popularity thanks to Take Evasive Action.

I don't think it'll change things much - there'll be Piett instead of Jerry, the firepower remains the same, maybe the skill level to use the build will go up a bit.

Errata Ravager to only work when resolving a single concentrate fire token.  

That may work if the change is warranted. I would still prefer a points change on a Ravager title as i personally think it's a bit undercosted.

Errata H9s not to work on flak.

How does it help? The only thing that it does is tipping the balance towards squad heavy all-aces builds.

Errata crippling to use the formula (hull damage / total hull), rounded up.  This keeps MoV reasonable while still allowing the SSD to change MoV through repairs and forcing enemy fleets to work through 20 shields.

Thats a major change if implemented for all ships. And if this is done for SSD only it would make SSD uncompetitive (one of the main weaknesses of SSD builds in competitive play is inability to win big vs skilled players)

Errata raid tokens and allow matching commands on the same ship.  This would not only present a potential threat to the SSD, but do it through a somewhat unloved collection of cards.

One more point - from my experience people aren't utilizing the tools already available against SSD (Syndulla, Vader, mass generic squads, asteroid placement to limit navigation, etc) and are significantly underestimating tools available with the new wave.

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45 minutes ago, PT106 said:

...Vader...

Yeah, for Imperials, the cruise missile is only 47 points, and can fit in fairly well into most lists.

 

Name: Cruise Missle
Raider I (44)

• Darth Vader (3)
= 47 Points

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3 minutes ago, ianediger said:

Yeah, for Imperials, the cruise missile is only 47 points, and can fit in fairly well into most lists.

 

Name: Cruise Missle
Raider I (44)

• Darth Vader (3)
= 47 Points

Add Corvus. Impossible to counter for SSD that doesnt have first.

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6 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Since Motti is already cut out of the equation for huge ships I'd rather not see JJ removed completely too. Rather downgrade his ability to 1 Yaw for huge ships. 

Or, errata him to do 2(or more) damage to huge ships instead. Or hull damage. Makes sense since he is swinging a thing with such huge inertia in a wide arc, the superstructure should be close to breaking point

Regarding rebel counters, anyone tried: EzraBridger, MartMattin?

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