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Cuz05

2 Firesprays and a Fang in HS. What do?

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The obvious, Fenn plus 2 Hunters leaves 8pt.

Personally, I'm not super sold on this. 2 naked Sprays will suffer dice, 1 can be quite easily annihilated in an alpha. Fenn always suffers dice. As is often the case with Fenn things, I feel it's a bit eggs>1 basket.

If I went this way, I'd likely double down on the Fenn hammer and give him Outmanouvre. Sacrifice the Sprays to allow Fenn room to lock and nuke. A risky strategy, but likely quite effective. You could spend the 8pt on the Sprays, but a talentless Fenn is incredibly prone to crappy red dice, blowing things up is often Fenns version of arc dodging, you don't want too much risk involved in that.

However, other options intrigue me more. Im mainly trying to find as many guarantees, against as many archetypes as possible, and reduce the inherent risk.

These other options require the immediate jettison of Mr. Fenn 'muh dice' Rau, to get some actual decent points to play with.

Immediately, with Fenn out, we're shifting the balance of the list to our big boys. Maybe this is unwise, twin Sprays that aren't decently loaded Boba plus Emon/Koshka have not seen much action. Moving them into a 2 ship list is a winner and gives you much better control over what goes boom and when. 

However, I am a firm believer in PerCo on a Spray. It's generally equivalent to 2 or 3 shield upgrades, or even more. The durability of an always focussed, or double focussed 2/3 die defence is considerable.

So let's add that to the Hunters. Now we have some genuine beef. 2 bruisers that should rarely lose their action and can shoulder a decent burden. They're not going to be too easy to remove.

And that's where my rabbit hole opens up fully.

Kad Solus with Outmanouvre brings us to a nice 200. This is super ship, concord into 4k/2 troll into double focus and whoops, there goes your agility. Hope you aren't blocked by a Spray.

But that's not much of a bid for our "ace". With many I4s running a mini bid, this could be trouble. They can't be allowed to dodge the Fang too easily while burning down the Hunters. Or just blow him straight up.

Fearless? It's great of course, but this Fang is not our frontline menace any more, so I'm not convinced that it'll see a lot of return. Bit dicey to go parking him in those spots, and we really do need a flanker/finisher.

So sad face for Kad, because the Skull is now a much more reasonable investment for that role. We can put Outmanoeuvre on him and be running at 193. We don't need all that bid, so what do we do?

Let the tears for absent Terry flow free.

Bombs are great here, but I'd prefer the Sprays to be mirrored for targetting/switching purposes. 2 Seismic take us to 199, which is fine, but removing 2/3rds of the obstacles seems a bit counterproductive and creates an awful lot of space for our Fang to avoid.

2 times CC then, to keep the Sprays engaged and the heat off the Skull.

No bombs :(

197, neat. I'm happy with this and it's likely gonna be 1st on the table. Seems to have beef for aces and a pseudo ace for beef and swarms. A nice collection of mods on offer overall. On paper, we've added a fair bit of reliability with relatively few changes. Simply ironing out some of the peaks and troughs.

Sure, we don't have Fenn to bully other I5/6s, but twin Sprays generally like those match ups anyway. Where they'll struggle, moving the ace from I6 to I4 is not much of an issue.

Plus, Skull Hunter is a pretty cool squad name.

Still, you can go many places. I've looked at a lightly tooled Koshka and Krassis, just 000 and Ion. Honestly don't know how that would play out, but with the increased potential for Init killing problematic masses of I2s and a bit of control for others, it seems a not terrible idea.

Ditching PerCo from the Hunters is still an option. There's a fair bit you can do with those points then....

So. What Would Jesus Do?

 

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The biggest alternative to PerCo is Proton Bombs and CC. So 2x69 points leaves us 62 for our "Ace", Outmaneuver Kad Solus, and 2 point bid.

I think this will do better against swarms, despite losing double focus, and the HS meta is definitely shifting more towards swarms. But yes, it does leave the list more vulnerable to alpha strikes.

It's also possible to go asymetrical. An outmaneuver skull leaves us 147 points for the bounty hunters, you could have PerCo on both, Proton Bombs on one, and CC on the other.

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39 minutes ago, Fippo said:

I am intrigued by angled deflectors on Bounty hunters. But i am afraid it takes too much away from offense. 

They do already have access to red reinforce and with the rear arc, stress is generally not cumbersome.

I would very much like some Proton for swarms. Asymmetry is certainly a decent option. One to turn, one to bomb. As long as they don't end up wanting to do it the other way round...

The main fear there is getting the Fang blocked too close.... He should do well at acing those lists, anyway. I had 1 vs 5 droids at the wknd. He was on a winning run if he'd had more time :D

Something to consider.

 

Edited by Cuz05

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21 minutes ago, underling said:

Or the simplicity of:

Kad w/ Outmaneuver (60)

Bounty hunter w/ Cybernetics, Hull upgrade (69)

Bounty hunter w/ Cybernetics, Hull upgrade (69)

Total (198)

I'd honestly take PerCo over CC and Hull, every time, for 1pt more. Regardless of the mini bid. They don't really need to pull red moves with an action and the perma-focussed defence adds so much more than 1 extra hit point. 

But Kad and a bid is going to nag at me forever :D

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Without Elusive in Hyperspace, I'm probably just not taking Kad Solus.  Skull Hunters!

Whether that's Outmaneuver and maybe 2x CC on the Hunters, or Fearless Skull + 2x Hull Hunters, or something else, I think it's probably just better than Kad without Elusive.

 

** edit **

Another option would be to cut a Perceptive Copilot for 0-0-0.  That saves 3 points for a baby bid, kinda.

Edited by theBitterFig

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2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

If you want simplicity in list building, you take a fearless skull, and two PerCo+Proton Bomb bounty hunters. 50+75+75, done.

Oh I really like when the numbers do that :D

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how about...

Skull Squadron Pilot (47)    
    Fearless (3)    
    
Ship total: 50  Half Points: 25  Threshold: 2    
    
Skull Squadron Pilot (47)    
    Fearless (3)    
    
Ship total: 50  Half Points: 25  Threshold: 2    
    
Boba Fett (85)    
    Fearless (3)    
    Perceptive Copilot (8)    
    Contraband Cybernetics (2)    
    Slave I (1)    
    
Ship total: 99  Half Points: 50  Threshold: 5    
    
    
Total: 199    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v8ZsZ200Z101X121WY101X121WY103X121WWW54WW92WW161W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

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3 hours ago, Greedo_Sharpshooter said:

how about...

 

Yeah, this is some good stuff. One of my mates is running a version of Boba's Skulls, so I'm not gonna :D

Haven't faced it yet but it's very similar to something I've run before.

Personally, I'd drop Boba to just PerCo and Slave 1 for a vaguely chunky bid on the Slave 1 choices. You'll meet mirrors and enjoy that perk.

It might actually be better than I thought it was...

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Flew the Skull Hunters against 5A last night, (Zizi, Tallie, Greer, I1x2). Lost the bid but was very pleased with the result. The only thing that didn't click was Outmanouevre, fairly obvious awkwardness in this match up. Fearless may have been preferred here, using the Fang more aggressively and letting the Sprays outlast and finish off the game. Losing a Spray too soon feels like it will impact the list more negatively than losing the Fang, so certainly a wider consideration.

But the Outmanouevre ace still feels like it will be a wiser course of action against front arc swarms, so it will remain for now.

Got a bit lucky with an unintentional block on Tallie that made her early dead, but PerCo worked wonders on keeping damage down from 2 die attacks, they looked good to just bruise their way through. CC was also very useful when pulling the Fang out and flipping the Sprays to stay engaged.

I love to get my hopes up and draw unreasonably positive conclusions from scant evidence, so I'm currently feeling like my SO list is on point :D

 

As an aside, I also tried Assaj with HP and title with 2 naked Sprays against them. Good fun and enjoys good dice very much. Might run that again, though it will not enjoy bad dice at all.... Thankfully, it had none in this game and I lucked fully in on a really, really bad 1st engagement, heh.

The Sprays are pretty good for taking advantage of the tractor, much arc to throw things in.

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35 minutes ago, underling said:

Another option that hasn't been mentioned is:

Skull w/ Outmaneuver (53)

Bounty hunter w/ Perceptive copilot, Deadman's switch  (72)

Bounty hunter w/ Perceptive copilot, Deadman's switch (72) 

Total (197)

 

I've considered this, but it makes R1 of the Sprays a bad place for the Skull to be. It's definitely somewhere he's gonna want to go as well.

A different 3rd ship might be fine with that.

Fearless and 2 ProBombs makes it 200. It's a definite consideration, since the bid is so situational. I do rather like the free flying of CC and no bombs though.

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Don't want to change the build discussion, but here's another one I looked at this morning.

Skull (47)

Skull (47)

M3-A (Genesis Red, I4) w/ Tractor beam (34)

Bounty hunter w/ Perceptive copilot (70)

Total (198)

Genesis Red shoots first (hopefully) providing tractor support to the other three ships.

You'll have to excuse me, I'm determined to make a scum list work in hyperspace, hopefully using an M3-A with a tractor beam... :D

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On 1/25/2020 at 4:20 PM, underling said:

You'll have to excuse me, I'm determined to make a scum list work in hyperspace, hopefully using an M3-A with a tractor beam... :D

Serissu with a tractor would do some good work for the Sprays. Certainly something I'd recommend trying out. 

Another couple of games today. A little unfair on my opponents. My 5A buddy was trying Poe in place of the 2 I1s and is openly mystified about what he should do with Poe on the table. The other chap is a newish player, trying to get to grips with the hard task that is 2 JM5s and Boba.

My dice did not help either, even a little bit.

So everything in the list feels absolutely nailed on now. PerCo is doing absolutely phenomenal work, everything about the Sprays works well with it. I fired off both CC every game and the difference it makes to target time is huge. That one flip into double focus is all they need to just keep on covering.

One of the great things about them built this way is that, not being Boba, they're not bothered about R1. They'll trade for a looong time at R2/3.

They turn away, maintain good cover/distance against what they fear and line up a tasty R1/2 shot on what they intend to bully. The dice only need to be vaguely kind to make it positive. The more numerous the opposing ships, the more they're down to 2 die attacks, which don't do a lot to 3/4 focussed greens. There is great flexibility in the token and hp stack. Tanking up or taking a couple hits to focus your attack can be a relaxing decision at I2.

CC just sets them up to continue the range control game after turning away, rather than spend a turn going slow, to shoot again, and then turning less aggressively/More predictably. The pressure they can keep up is strong, the options you can set them up with are so open.

Blasting past a higher Init ship that can't then turn on you is a thing.

Clearly, sometimes you do just close up all the space and crush something at R1. That also works.

So with those 2 just being constant massive b**t**ds, the Fang has generally good options. He can hide and wait, use them as cover or dash into the spaces they create. Having him sit out and wave his arc across places a ship will want be, instead of in a Hunter box, is a useful start.

Boba was a huge problem for him today, as expected, but his big buddies looked after him. Boba went down, leaving the Skull still alive on 1hp. Freeing him to finish up his routine demolishment of the JM5s, rather than cutting it short.

The bid made quite a difference in his pursuit of Tel, as it did with the Hunters vs a Scout. It's handy.

It seems to pay to switch treatment of the Skull during play. The Sprays really do take some work to put meaningful damage on, if you get them in the right spots. If they're on a steady sail, but not making enough of a dent at their chosen range, the Skull is on to just get in and do what he does best, or die trying. The Sprays can then pull away and make end game boxes at a safer distance. Making them basically a pair of point fortresses that don't even have to stop shooting and earning.

Against the JM5s, he had to start hurting them early and needed to really push into that. As soon  as I committed him, I saw the balance shift away from the Sprays, which just played right into my hands.

I'm obviously expecting things to get much harder. One of the Hunters will take too much damage, too soon, for too little return. Now, my victory condition has matured, the Fang is fully expendable, The results of the 1st couple of trades will determine how aggressive he needs to be and what bargains he needs to make. If he can go in and do good damage, letting 1 and half Sprays finish, the points are still good. It has almost come to this in 2 of the 3 games, now I'm much more prepared to start playing into it. He is a poison dart, to be launched at the right time.

Essentially, as potent as the R2/3 Outmanouevre can be, it is mostly win-more. If he has more than 1 or 2 turns of comfortable ranged fire, sitting out there sniping, then the job could have been done with a much cheaper ship and is likely going to play out favourably. Which then allows nasty Probombs and other biz, for a different kind of game plan.

That he can do both jobs well makes him a very strong piece here. I like the balance and flex a great deal.

The final thing that nails this as my SO list is that it's just not taxing at all. The hardest choices lie with the cheapest ship and even his are fairly binary. I don't expect to do particularly well, regardless. I do play against very good players on a regular basis, (and often lose), but I've only once played anything larger than a small store tourney and don't often play against people I haven't at least met before. What I do expect, the main thing I want, is to be able to truck this round a table all day with a very healthy amount of room for a laugh and a bunch of beers :D

But it might not do too bad.....

Be vewwy qwiet, I'm Hunting Skulls.

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This may be too simple, but I’m just dipping my toe in the scummy side of the pool. 

Tr3lix

(65) Krassis Trelix [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(6) Ion Cannon
(1) Marksmanship
Points: 72

(68) Fenn Rau [Fang Fighter]
(2) Predator
Points: 70

(56) Old Teroch [Fang Fighter]
(2) Predator
Points: 58

Total points: 200

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17 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This may be too simple, but I’m just dipping my toe in the scummy side of the pool. 

Tr3lix

(65) Krassis Trelix [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(6) Ion Cannon
(1) Marksmanship
Points: 72

(68) Fenn Rau [Fang Fighter]
(2) Predator
Points: 70

(56) Old Teroch [Fang Fighter]
(2) Predator
Points: 58

Total points: 200

Oh I think that's pretty neat. Shame T is out of HS, he's generally the 1st name I throw in a Fang list.

Boba is just such a beast, you generally get a lot more mileage from dropping one of the two Fangs down instead. They can get a little dicey, so investing more points there can wander into plain old table flip territory.

But those 2 aces are great together and well worth building around. Lobbing Ion backwards as he flees the bait position, full of holes, could be enough to let them go to town.

I'd let MMS go for Fearless on Old T. He faces things up and just straight wrecks them. It's often better than being out of arc.

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1 minute ago, Cuz05 said:

Oh I think that's pretty neat. Shame T is out of HS, he's generally the 1st name I throw in a Fang list.

Boba is just such a beast, you generally get a lot more mileage from dropping one of the two Fangs down instead. They can get a little dicey, so investing more points there can wander into plain old table flip territory.

But those 2 aces are great together and well worth building around. Lobbing Ion backwards as he flees the bait position, full of holes, could be enough to let them go to town.

I'd let MMS go for Fearless on Old T. He faces things up and just straight wrecks them. It's often better than being out of arc.

Yeah, as I stated, I'm new to the pond to the point I haven't a clue what's hyperspace in this faction. I thought this list had real assisting legs, so-to-speak. 

I also didn't follow your original 2xSprays plus... I only decided on attaining one Spray, four fangs, and two Mining Guild TIEs (filler maybe?). I thought it would make for some good tools.

Your write-ups and analysis is deep and thought out. I will be leaning on it to be sure.

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7 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I'd let MMS go for Fearless on Old T. He faces things up and just straight wrecks them. It's often better than being out of arc.

Great point, I feel undereducated. Thanks!

Tr3lix 

(65) Krassis Trelix [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(6) Ion Cannon
Points: 71

(68) Fenn Rau [Fang Fighter]
(2) Predator
Points: 70

(56) Old Teroch [Fang Fighter]
(3) Fearless
Points: 59

Total points: 200

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And your build can be tweaked a little to make it Hyperspace legal.

(65) Krassis Trelix [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(6) Ion Cannon
Points: 71

(68) Fenn Rau [Fang Fighter]
(6) Outmaneuver
Points: 74

(47) Skull Squadron [Fang Fighter]
(6) Outmaneuver
Points: 53

Total points: 198

And if you prefer, you can still add Contraband Cybernetics to Krassis for 2 points to round the build out to 200.

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8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

four fangs

Sounds like someone will also be visiting the FFF thread :D

I've only just dipped into MGTs with a recent pick up of precisely one, so I've no personal experience on what's going on there really. Apart from Seevor is God of them and not HS legal, so :shrug: I obviously now own not enough.

But Fangs and Sprays I'm quite confident with, so only too happy to offer maybe helpful comments on ALLL of it, any time, any place :)

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So maybe I'll just add another wall of text.... Maybe the match ups have relevance as a testimony to the list, these feel like they complete the story arc. 

2 games with it today, much sterner tests, thankfully. Lost both, which I kinda needed.

Still, very positive. Played against Boba, PerCo, Fearless, Slave 1 and his 2 Fearless Skulls. Really smart and thoughtful player, lots of Boba experience. A match up I was extremely keen to test out. He won the roll off, to make it an even better test.

Ultimately, I think I'm gonna blame dice :D

1st engagement, fairly set, one Spray rolled 5 blanks on 6 greens against 6 hits. Did get a couple on Boba in return. Next turn, he rolled another couple blank greens in another trade with Bob.

Then I got a good block and R2 Outmanoeure shot onto a Skull, which did nothing.

My skull died in 2 attacks. Blanked on a R1 face off with Bob when full health, then got caught on a R2.

So that all kinda tilted it a bit. Happens. I don't doubt he had some bad rolls too. And it wasn't really just dice.

It was close though. An extra few hits and evades on a few key rolls could have swung the game my way at various points. A 4hp Boba and half a Fang left for him when he finally finished my lone crippled Spray. The Fang could have popped in my rear arc at a few points and starting the slow creep of death, Boba was on 4 when my Spray was still on 8.

Many positives though, lots of what could have been good trades. My Skull positioning forced some very hard decisions. His threat is extremely useful for sheparding higher Init ships that want to jump the Sprays. Definitely feels like a match I can win, particularly if I get the roll off. 

He had me on the back foot for more or less the whole game, which helps evaluate some of my decisions. Had I set up better, rather than randomly lobbing obstacles and setting up in the middle, I could have given myself more options. I'm pretty sure I just need to catch one of the Fangs and get rid early, while tanking a few hits. Then the match up swings my way pretty hard. 

I play this chap a lot and I'm not sure I've ever beaten him when he's got a practised competition list on the mat.... So there's much to be happy with.

Then played Kylo, 2x FOTP. Fella has a lot of playing time with Kylo plus. His Kylo is always a hard nut to crack. The Brolencers have been on the table at least a bit.

Really feel I should take this one most of the time, without having to work too hard though. Seems a good match up for me. The main test here was running Assaj and 3 Recruits on the table next to me at the same time. I just really didn't pay enough attention to this game at a few key points :D

But it's a tough one, still, at least dice-wise. After a not great opening for me, he just had to get them running or they'd have got squished. So then they were hard to get damage on. Then I just drove the one onto a rock that I somehow just didn't even think existed or something and missed out on a crucial shot.

Nothing died, but both FOTP ended on 1 health and Kylo was breathing heavy sighs of relief on 4hp. I caught them numerous times, but not often in more than one arc. Everything I had was halved. Needed a little bit more on the last trade. Unbalanced 1v1s again though.

I like this match up. But I'll have to concentrate for it :D

Once again, all the upgrades just tick, tick, tick. 3 Talon into double focus is gold.

What needs thought and preparation for me is spacing and leaving those open avenues to fly fast and past at key times. Against the FO, my Sprays arcs became completely unaligned, denying me the crucial lid to put on the killboxes. Too far apart, arcs away from each other. Against Boba, thanks to the lack of good avenues, I took 1 or 2 too many R1 shots, which were always going to be tilted in his favour.

Its good to have the Sprays at 45 degrees to each other, doesn't matter on facing ofc, but they have to converge. So although they can seperate quite widely on their fast moves and turnarounds, the minimum R3 overlap is pretty vital to maintain. It's obviously possible to just conduct 1v1 dogfights all over the place, it's not terrible for them, but it is inefficient and they do just get jumped by 'aces'. In my other 3 games, I got this right.

I also kind of misplayed the Skull a little. Simple timing decisions. A too early turn in for the FO, sent him through and out with a couple barely effective shots. Blocking with the Sprays to set him up a bit later would have been key. I was too eager there.

Against Boba, a lunge that went too far, missing a key shot and closing off a turn back in. His input could still have been a game winner, it didn't have to come then. If I'd directed the Sprays better, and got them out, he was away, healthy and ready to come back in to take advantage.

One final thing, obstacle placement matters a little bit more than I thought. As usual. But only a little. Still not quite sure how, something, something avenues.

Couple more prep games to come, I won't burden this thread with more words on them, it all seems pretty much said now. I may put MKO in the Batreps though. Depends on the memory vs drink battle that I'll be waging simultaneously.

And if I remember to take any pictures to alleviate the TL:DR.

My Lego Mandalorians turned up today as well, so we're all set. 

Edited by Cuz05

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On 1/28/2020 at 1:26 AM, Cuz05 said:

The other chap is a newish player, trying to get to grips with the hard task that is 2 JM5s and Boba.

So as the experienced player it is your job to teach him "to just say no!"   to 2x JM5s.  ;)

 

 

But seriously, this army of yours seems like something I would like to try. But between all your text walls I'm not 100% certain what exactly you are fielding.

I'm guessing:

2x  Bounty Hunter, Perco, Cybernetics

1x Skull Hunter, with Fearless/Outmaneuver (not certain)

That it?  No bombs in the end.

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1 hour ago, Bort said:

But seriously, this army of yours seems like something I would like to try. But between all your text walls I'm not 100% certain what exactly you are fielding.

I'm guessing:

2x  Bounty Hunter, Perco, Cybernetics

1x Skull Hunter, with Fearless/Outmaneuver (not certain)

That it?  No bombs in the end.

Outmanouevre it is. Didn't realise I hadn't actually posted a standard format list :D

Skull Hunters!

(47) Skull Squadron Pilot [Fang Fighter]
(6) Outmaneuver
Points: 53

(62) Bounty Hunter [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(2) Contraband Cybernetics
Points: 72

(62) Bounty Hunter [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(2) Contraband Cybernetics
Points: 72

Total points: 197

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