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Hyperspace....Why?

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13 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:

Oh, it's very much both.  About a year ago I looked at trying it out, got extremely frustrated with the limitations it puts on you and decided not to bother, looked around for an Extended format tournament I could play in and found precisely none.

Well, that would have to be a local phenomenon. Extended and Hyperspace split tournament representation both last year and this. 

From what you've said, I think I can basically summarize with this:

If you're just playing kitchen table xwing, and not attending tournaments, it's quite likely you're completely unexposed to what parts of the extended competitive meta are disliked by hyperspace fans. The sales pitch for hyperspace isn't at all "this is for new players" - though that is a true facet and benefit of it. But for, I would say, the vast majority of people who like hyperspace, the sales pitch is "this format is way more fun to play", with everything else being secondary. 

I'd recommend trying it sometime - building lists with a new set of restrictions is fun and challenging - even if that's just trying it for a game or two at home and then resuming your normal, preferred styles of play. I'd also recommend shifting your perspective, a bit, on playing at local events - which are as much about social interaction with people sharing similar interests as the game itself - but of course, you've had negative experiences with those in the past (though those people might not be around anymore!), so it's understandable if it doesn't seem worth the effort. There's always (well, region depending) league nights and other more laid back ways to share the hobby too, but basement X-Wing is hardly a sin!

Just now, UberMunchkin said:

What I do remember clearly is trying, multiple times, to create a list that I could play under that format and every single one of them was illegal due to format restrictions.  Which in turn was incredibly unfun.

Ok wait I wrote all that and then this changed my thoughts a bit.

The fact that hyperspace lists require compromise and uncertainty is one of the best parts about it! The more difficult the decisions, the more interesting the decision set!

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1 minute ago, svelok said:

Well, that would have to be a local phenomenon. Extended and Hyperspace split tournament representation both last year and this. 

From what you've said, I think I can basically summarize with this:

If you're just playing kitchen table xwing, and not attending tournaments, it's quite likely you're completely unexposed to what parts of the extended competitive meta are disliked by hyperspace fans. The sales pitch for hyperspace isn't at all "this is for new players" - though that is a true facet and benefit of it. But for, I would say, the vast majority of people who like hyperspace, the sales pitch is "this format is way more fun to play", with everything else being secondary. 

I'd recommend trying it sometime - building lists with a new set of restrictions is fun and challenging - even if that's just trying it for a game or two at home and then resuming your normal, preferred styles of play. I'd also recommend shifting your perspective, a bit, on playing at local events - which are as much about social interaction with people sharing similar interests as the game itself - but of course, you've had negative experiences with those in the past (though those people might not be around anymore!), so it's understandable if it doesn't seem worth the effort. There's always (well, region depending) league nights and other more laid back ways to share the hobby too, but basement X-Wing is hardly a sin!

I think we just have different expectations of the game is all, I feel like Hyperspace is FFG telling me "Thanks for the money, now get out and let the new players in" and your experience of it is different.  That's perfectly fine, but I have no intention of getting involved in competitive play ever again.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

Ok wait I wrote all that and then this changed my thoughts a bit.

The fact that hyperspace lists require compromise and uncertainty is one of the best parts about it! The more difficult the decisions, the more interesting the decision set!

See that's also not something I enjoy, why put things in the game and then say that they can't be used.  That's just lazy. 

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Yeah before this current System Open Series being Hyperspace, I would have agred with you. Limited ships I could use, mostly for new people so they can use what's in stores, all that.

However now that most stuff is out again and available, they have made it way more of a "lets remove the popular list-building crutches right now and see what people can do" style of play.

And as someone who likes making lists a lot of the time, I've loved it. Taking a new faction to me (Republic) to the UK SOS and it's been really fun to make lists, refine them and find what works for my playstyle within the limitations. And none of the limitations have felt like I'm being 'denied' ships or cards I own, as I can play whatever I like at home or at my local cub. But for one weekend I get to face a list-building challenge and see a much more even playing field at an event.

The SOS are my fav X-Wing events anyway, no matter how bad I do I always have a great time. But this has made the prep and practise even more fun. I'm going in not knowing what I'll face, but knowing it won't be months worth of meta lists and tried and true combos. It will be loads of people having only had a month to make new lists, just like me.

Think of Hyperspace as one of those work team building exercises. You have to make the tallest tower you can, but you only have paper and tape. It's not your job,  so you don't have to do this task every day, but it's a fun challenge for one day of the week.

It IS a format that is a fun challenge for event play though. Some may play it casually, but I do see it more as a way to keep official events fresh and not full of the same 5 lists/combos as much. So as someone who doesn't want to play at events, I can totaly see why you wouldn't want to play it. I'm sorry your local area seems to mainly be this format, that seems odd to me and trust me, is not the norm.

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Hmm.  It would appear that the quote function has stopped working for me.

Anyway, all I was going to say was that I can totally see the counter points expressed here but none of that appeals to me, I just don't like the idea of the Hyperspace rules and I won't be playing in Hyperspace games.  Ever. I wish you all great success in the games you are playing though.

Edited by UberMunchkin

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47 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

Yeah before this current System Open Series being Hyperspace, I would have agred with you. Limited ships I could use, mostly for new people so they can use what's in stores, all that.

However now that most stuff is out again and available, they have made it way more of a "lets remove the popular list-building crutches right now and see what people can do" style of play.

And as someone who likes making lists a lot of the time, I've loved it. Taking a new faction to me (Republic) to the UK SOS and it's been really fun to make lists, refine them and find what works for my playstyle within the limitations. And none of the limitations have felt like I'm being 'denied' ships or cards I own, as I can play whatever I like at home or at my local cub. But for one weekend I get to face a list-building challenge and see a much more even playing field at an event.

The SOS are my fav X-Wing events anyway, no matter how bad I do I always have a great time. But this has made the prep and practise even more fun. I'm going in not knowing what I'll face, but knowing it won't be months worth of meta lists and tried and true combos. It will be loads of people having only had a month to make new lists, just like me.

Think of Hyperspace as one of those work team building exercises. You have to make the tallest tower you can, but you only have paper and tape. It's not your job,  so you don't have to do this task every day, but it's a fun challenge for one day of the week.

It IS a format that is a fun challenge for event play though. Some may play it casually, but I do see it more as a way to keep official events fresh and not full of the same 5 lists/combos as much. So as someone who doesn't want to play at events, I can totaly see why you wouldn't want to play it. I'm sorry your local area seems to mainly be this format, that seems odd to me and trust me, is not the norm.

This is great to hear. This is exactly what I envision from Hyperspace. Its a curated format that changes on the regular and allows experienced players to work with a new meta and come up with new ideas to try and play. 

It has its own prestigious series of tournaments leading up to a championship invitational that only proven players can attend. 

Its in a good place where it is with the System Open Series and the Coruscant Invitational. I don't even mind it being used for one of the Store Champs. I appreciate that other players appreciate it! But if its fans got its way, and it became the "main" format of X-Wing, if I started showing up to my FLGS game nights and everyone was constantly wanting to play Hyperspace instead of Extended, I would legit quit the game and /r/miniswap my collection. 

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1 hour ago, UberMunchkin said:


Well again your experience must be different to mine because when I've looked locally the only available organised play options have been Hyperspace Format only.  That might be an artifact of shops near me only running a small number of games or a number of other things.  Doesn't really matter.  What does matter is that there was nothing available to me that wasn't Hyperspace format. 

I was in that boat (only hyperspace around me) back at the dawn of 2nd edition.

I did something about it.

I started a community in a LGS that didn’t have an xwing scene yet. Casual flying, just meet up and play. It started with 3-4 guys and a few transients that came and left.

Fast-forward to today, where we have 8-10 minimum each week and the regular base has grown. It takes a holiday to disrupt attendance now.

And we play all formats: extended, hyper, epic and aces High. It’s all good and fun.

Oh, and our store buys us kit packages for swag.

My point is, if you can’t find what you want locally, do something about it!

 

1 hour ago, UberMunchkin said:

I think we just have different expectations of the game is all, I feel like Hyperspace is FFG telling me "Thanks for the money, now get out and let the new players in" and your experience of it is different.  That's perfectly fine, but I have no intention of getting involved in competitive play ever again.

That’s up to you of course, but I really disagree with the statement about the new people. Republic wants to buy a nice shiny 3-ship pack.... and they can’t take two of them into hyperspace now. That stings for new players way more than us veterans.

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1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

That’s up to you of course, but I really disagree with the statement about the new people. Republic wants to buy a nice shiny 3-ship pack.... and they can’t take two of them into hyperspace now.

Not just that they can't use most of the upgrade cards in it either. 

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2 hours ago, UberMunchkin said:

See that's also not something I enjoy, why put things in the game and then say that they can't be used.  That's just lazy. 

I can understand not liking Hyperspace, but how is it lazy?  It seems to me like it would actually be more work to try to figure out what to keep and what to cut without unbalancing things too much.

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Personally, I'd like to see the competitive scene remain around 50/50 (it more or less has been and it seems to me like it still is; which half each represents switched places but they've always both been super important).

I really like both formats, but for totally different reasons: Hyperspace is awesome because it's a curated format with very interesting and unique list-building challenges, but... at the same time, a lot of the ships I love flying aren't there (and I don't mean Delta 7B; I mean IGs, VCX, etc. – the fun jank).

I enjoy Extended and tend to play it more because I have a large collection and I want to get more use out of it. Specifically I like playing around with things no one else uses like the Auzituck and Republic Y-Wing – it's a unique challenge of its own. I like to see Hyperspace because it's easier for a new player to get in and wrap their head around; fewer pilots and upgrades means you have a better idea what you'll be facing (and removes much of the potential PTW aspect). I like to see Extended because it's really where everything comes out to play and all the stops get pulled out; you get to leverage all of the new points changes and see what really lands.

I was a little disappointed that no one locally was playing extended last week because I had some super interesting extended lists I wanted to try, and everyone's talking about hyperspace online anyway; Extended seems like the wild west and I love adventure.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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So the thing I see cropping up a lot, somehow on both sides of the debate, is this concept that new players have an opinion on formats and that this opinion definitely supports whichever side of the debate you are on.

They don't. New players don't have an opinion on formats. People who aren't even sure what all the icons on their cards mean yet aren't worried about what formats their stuff is legal in. Stop being outraged on their behalf. We have a whole group of new players at the store I go to. I was playing a Hyperspace list, the dude across the table had all ten ships he owned in a box. We played a couple games and had fun. Not once did I hear "so I'm excited to take Wedge, Lando, and Jake to Adepticon" because he's not thinking about Adepticon. 

You don't like Hyperspace and refuse to ever play it? Yeah thats legit. You think that Hyperspace is too complicated for new players to understand? Nice, you've managed to hijack the needs of other people to suit your own goals while simultaneously marginalizing their own ability to understand formats. Extended isn't fair to new players because they might not own some of the ships? I guess maybe all the competitive extended lists in the first six months of 2.0 required 1.0 stuff and a conversion kit, but not since Republic has been available is this true. 

Edited by Micanthropyre

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1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

We played a couple games and had fun. Not once did I hear "so I'm excited to take Wedge, Lando, and Jake to Adepticon" because he's not thinking about Adepticon. 

We're not talking about Adepticon.

We're talking about what a new player will face across the table at his first store champs event, which is usually the first significant OP event new players are exposed to. Facing down things you've never heard of is incredibly intimidating. The more limited format of Hyperspace makes it easier to have some idea what you'll be facing off with.

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7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

We're not talking about Adepticon.

We're talking about what a new player will face across the table at his first store champs event, which is usually the first significant OP event new players are exposed to. Facing down things you've never heard of is incredibly intimidating. The more limited format of Hyperspace makes it easier to have some idea what you'll be facing off with.

I've been on the experienced player side of this a couple times. And every time the new player is like "whoa I've never seen that ship before" and then plays the game. 

We often talk afterwords, where they'll ask questions about it. I think ya'll are making new players out to be far sweatier than they are. 

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Personally, I'd like to see the competitive scene remain around 50/50 (it more or less has been and it seems to me like it still is; which half each represents switched places but they've always both been super important).

One of the local-ish (relaxed definition for my low-pop area) stores pretty much alternates their monthy kit between Extended and Hyperspace.  I think I generally prefer Hyperspace, but like to have an extended outlet to just stretch a bit.  Break out the TIE Defenders or Corran Horn or whatever.

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17 hours ago, BVRCH said:

My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently. FFG did the opposite.. why?

I expect that Hyperspace will become a more prominent format.  Look at this year as a transition period, with FFG trying to create a more curated format for use in premiere events.

16 hours ago, gadwag said:

I think the reason FFG haven't made hyperspace more prevalent is because they are often very cautious and hesitant when introducing rotation into their games. Their plan for this year looks like a trial for making hyperspace more prevalent - they can look at sales performance and player reactions in both halves of the year, and they can look at how many stores run hyperspace tourneys in the second half. By having hyperspace forced on us for the first half, many players might realise that it is indeed a better format and run with it. At any rate, I'd expect to see some more changes in 2021 based on how things go this year.

Totally with you on that, @gadwag!

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Let's see if I can articulate my confusion...

I am a long time collector of xwing but rarely play. I bought conversions for the thousands of dollars of xwing I bought. All good.

So I'm thinking ok, time for me to step up and create a xwing scene at flgs...

First off i see that 5 blue squadron x wings played in the above discussion but if i look in ffgs app they are 41 points each meaning you cant field 5 of them, that changed from...yesterday?

But in yasb 2.0 they are 40 and you can.

Ok, ok. Things change and i cant tell who is or is not keeping up. Pick one and go.

But this discussion, from a really newbie point of view..hyperspace..good for new players, bad for new players, good for folks with collections but bad for folks with collections...all of a sudden I'm channeling oogway...quit...dont quit... noodles... dont noodles...

I mean wow, I should go back to 40k with my 8 different rulebooks and 150 d6...that'd be simpler. 

But really, I am asking based on the above discussion..let's say I wanted to get myself and others back into this game...what format?

Who's points?

Does that sound confused? If it does it is dead on.

 

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On 1/20/2020 at 8:28 PM, kris40k said:

Did you miss X-Wing in 2019?

They tried that with having the major tourneys leading up to Worlds be Hyperspace (Hyperspace Qualifiers, and Hyperspace Cups, and everything else). Its not as popular a format as its fans would like it to be.

The System Open series leading to Coruscant Invitational is a good place for it, as that has typically been an alternate format for proven competitive players, but the main format of X-Wing is Extended. 

^nuff said.

Now some might say that X-wing has too many supply chain problems to allow extended to be the format for the ships but in that case FFG needs to streamline their supply chain or be a little more lenient on what models can be use for what (i.e. allowing a Resistance Falcon model to act as a Rebel Alliance Falcon as long as the cardboard and dials match the card). IMHO changing the points for the format only just to make it competitive really points out the flaws with the format. As I said before if they have problem models don't ban the modoels ban the pilots or upgrades.

Edited by Marinealver

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43 minutes ago, Adun42 said:

But this discussion, from a really newbie point of view..hyperspace..good for new players, bad for new players, good for folks with collections but bad for folks with collections...all of a sudden I'm channeling oogway

This thread is a discussion about whether hyperspace is good or bad, so you're going to see opinions from both sides here. These forums are also home to a lot of salty grumps who like to complain about anything FFG does, so watch out for that.

43 minutes ago, Adun42 said:

But really, I am asking based on the above discussion..let's say I wanted to get myself and others back into this game...what format?

Hyperspace. This format requires fewer purchases to get started and is the format for store championship events in the first half of the year. Importantly, no first edition models or conversion kits are needed for hyperspace. Since you already own a lot of models and kits, playing extended shouldn't be a problem for you personally, but it will be an issue if you want to attract new players.

44 minutes ago, Adun42 said:

Who's points?

Use yasb 2.0. It is up to date with the points values published by FFG here. The official app will be updated soonish, but it is a total trainwreck and FFG are having a better one made to replace it.

49 minutes ago, Adun42 said:

Does that sound confused? If it does it is dead on.

FFG's communication isn't as streamlined and clear as GW's, so your confusion is somewhat understandable. If you want further clarity on the formats, have a read of this and this.

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8 hours ago, Adun42 said:

So I'm thinking ok, time for me to step up and create a xwing scene at flgs...

...

But really, I am asking based on the above discussion..let's say I wanted to get myself and others back into this game...what format?

Who's points?

It seems to me that if you're looking to create a scene from scratch, which undertaking would presumably include casual, new, and/or occasional players, then Extended is your clear best option.  (So-called 'Extended' is really just X-Wing!).  Folks that are interested can then play with any ships that they have or that pique their interest and list-building will be simple.  Cool models, Star Wars theme, and simple fun are the things that drew many to the game to begin with. 

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4 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

It seems to me that if you're looking to create a scene from scratch, which undertaking would presumably include casual, new, and/or occasional players, then Extended is your clear best option.  (So-called 'Extended' is really just X-Wing!).  Folks that are interested can then play with any ships that they have or that pique their interest and list-building will be simple.  Cool models, Star Wars theme, and simple fun are the things that drew many to the game to begin with. 

That depends on your new player doesn't it? Well employed older guy who loved Star Wars as a kid who decided he can afford a hobby now that he's done paying alimony and child support is different than family man and his twelve year-old wanting to play. Neither is a clear best option. They both have their pros and cons. And the choice isn't solely your own even if you just want to play with one or two other guys at home. 

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

That depends on your new player doesn't it? Well employed older guy who loved Star Wars as a kid who decided he can afford a hobby now that he's done paying alimony and child support is different than family man and his twelve year-old wanting to play. Neither is a clear best option. They both have their pros and cons. And the choice isn't solely your own even if you just want to play with one or two other guys at home. 

Point taken that new players are all different.  However, they do all have one thing in common - they are new. 

I'm not knocking Hyperspace as a format (though I have no interest in it myself); I'm sure it's great for the people for whom it's great - serious and frequent players who want a periodic shake-up of the metagame and fine balance adjustments.  I don't think that new players care about that stuff (though they may become interested as they become more involved with the game). 

And I'd be sore put-off if, as someone who just saw the game and was drawn into it, I just bought Bossk or General Grievous because maybe one of those is my favourite character, only to be told that I can't play them because they aren't Hyperspace legal.  I think that if one is trying to 'start a scene' and generate initial interest in the game, he should cast his Conner net of pew-pew-fun wide.

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1 minute ago, Helias de Nappo said:

Point taken that new players are all different.  However, they do all have one thing in common - they are new. 

I'm not knocking Hyperspace as a format (though I have no interest in it myself); I'm sure it's great for the people for whom it's great - serious and frequent players who want a periodic shake-up of the metagame and fine balance adjustments.  I don't think that new players care about that stuff (though they may become interested as they become more involved with the game). 

And I'd be sore put-off if, as someone who just saw the game and was drawn into it, I just bought Bossk or General Grievous because maybe one of those is my favourite character, only to be told that I can't play them because they aren't Hyperspace legal.  I think that if one is trying to 'start a scene' and generate initial interest in the game, he should cast his Conner net of pew-pew-fun wide.

Yeah, I think the, "Hyperspace is great for newbies," argument was much better back when it sounded like Hyperspace was just going to be everything 2E and only 2E, which never ended up happening.

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6 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Why specify a format for your playgroup? Format only matters if you are looking to test specific matchups. Specify format from game to game.

Well you need to specify format enough ahead of time that people can show up with appropriate lists prepared in my opinion. When you show up for group you shouldn't be spending that time figuring out lists and pulling cards and setting up ship tokens and such. It also helps avoid situations of guys plopping down hard counters and you don't want to show up with only extended lists and everyone else is doing hyperspace and doesn't want to play you. Everyone needs to be on the same page. 

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Just now, Frimmel said:

Well you need to specify format enough ahead of time that people can show up with appropriate lists prepared in my opinion. When you show up for group you shouldn't be spending that time figuring out lists and pulling cards and setting up ship tokens and such. It also helps avoid situations of guys plopping down hard counters and you don't want to show up with only extended lists and everyone else is doing hyperspace and doesn't want to play you. Everyone needs to be on the same page. 

I think his point was, does everyone need to be playing the same format?  If you find someone else interested in a format, the two of you can arrange to play that a particular week without disrupting everyone else. 

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