Starhawk & Onager In Stores Jan 31st!

[Rmcarrier1 627]

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

And there isn't any counter to that - that feels a bit like an NPE, I have to say.  I mean, even Konstantine can't drop an enemy to a speed its defense tokens are disabled, and he's 23 points!

On this, we agree! Konstantine sucks. 😆

[Cpt ObVus 1,190]

1 hour ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Just stay away from it.

While it camps the Contested Outpost? Or while it whale-watches?

You might just lose on objectives.

[xanderf 6,778]

1 hour ago, Formynder4 said:

Maybe you should wait and play a few games before jumping to declare it an NPE... 

There is no counter to it.  It's in the same boat as the X-Wing Tractor rules were before they realized how much of an NPE they were and changed them - your enemy is controlling you with no action you can take or defense you could make or meaningful reaction to it.

That's the definition of NPE.

[Grumbleduke 810]

9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

There is no counter to it.

There are plenty of soft-counters to Magnite. Being first player is one. Keeping away from it is another (it's speed 2 max with no ETs or Raddus, it's not going to jump out at you). Arc-dodging so you're only getting the rear shots, having nav tokens ready to speed up when you need it, any defensive tools that work at speed 0 (Lando, EWS, Agate!, to some extent Motti, Cracken). Swarms might be good - Magnite can only drop a ship to 0 every 2 rounds. Even things like The Grand Inquisitor.

Like a lot of new mechanics I suspect that it will terrify people for a while, and that is understandable. But it feels like something that will be quite difficult to pull off well (particularly against a ship that the Starhawk isn't going to just flatten anyway, whatever the speed), and once people have played against it for a while they'll figure out how to neutralise it.

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

16 minutes ago, xanderf said:

There is no counter to it.  It's in the same boat as the X-Wing Tractor rules were before they realized how much of an NPE they were and changed them - your enemy is controlling you with no action you can take or defense you could make or meaningful reaction to it.

That's the definition of NPE.

You need a nav dial/token to slow down.

Or maybe people will start taking these again:

Or maybe slowing down a TRC90 at medium/long range isn't rewarding when the other 6 are now ready to overheat that silly defense token suite.

Or maybe you outbid them.

Or out-activate them.

Or maybe you have other means of going last:

Or maybe the Raddus Profundity drop threw Aspiration in their face from well beyond magnite range.

There are options.  If BTAvenger didn't break the game by locking down every defense token you've ever known and loved, this slower, ECM-less option isn't likely to.

Edited January 30 by The Jabbawookie

[xanderf 6,778]

41 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

There are options.  If BTAvenger didn't break the game by locking down every defense token you've ever known and loved, this slower, ECM-less option isn't likely to.

BTvenger has some very serious constrictions on its usage - not only eating up the gunnery slot to use (a slot that is, let's say, in fairly high demand) as well as offensive retro slot, but also being extremely range-limited.  Oh,  yeah, and discard-to-use besides.

If Magnite crystals had ANY of that, it'd feel a lot more reasonable.  As it is, the only slot it uses is one without any other use for the ship, its range is "anything in firing range anywhere", and it's endlessly re-usable.  The only nuance to it is that you need to get your speed up before dropping it again, so is effectively usable only ever other turn.

And while slicer tools and Cham aren't a bad bet, they aren't specifically a counter to this, and that they exist and are annoying enough means you almost certainly already have THEIR counters on your ship (navigation officer, support officer, defense liaison, etc).

Pryce could help a SSD worried about Magnites, but in lists with more than 1 ship you care about, her limitation to only working on the ship she is equipped to (and telegraphs the turn she will be acting) will have the Starhawk simply target your other big guns, or even not engage on that turn at all.

I think the parallels to the X-Wing 2.0 tractor rules are apt - the net experience is too similar for this to stand, and I rather anticipate a similar nerf to its rules at some point.  (Well, if FFG paid as much attention to Armada as X-Wing anyway)  For those who weren't aware, as released the tractor rules for that game reduced your ship's agility and let the tractoring ship move the victim around a bit, with no counter-play from the defender.  The rule change was to add a decision step - after being moved, the defender could choose to take a stress token to rotate their ship 90 degrees left or right (essentially bringing weapons back into arc that the attacker had forced out of arc despite the best efforts of the defender...but the stress token meaning the ship was limited in what maneuvers or actions it could take the next turn, so it was a trade-off that had to be decided in how to react to the tractor attack).  Something as simple as 'when at speed 0 you can spend only 1 defense token, and it must be discarded to be used' would be comparable to the rule change that happened in X-Wing....the defender gets a choice to make, it's a steep price so not an easy choice, but they have a direct reaction they can make to something they'd otherwise have no control over.

Edited January 30 by xanderf

[ninclouse2000 1,049]

3 hours ago, SithLrd88 said:

So has everyone (at least in US) that pre-ordered with FFG have both the Starhawk and Onager already?

 

I ordered with Miniature Market, and haven't gotten any kind of update or email. Now I'll be tardy to the party.

Miniature market will most likely not ship until Friday.  At least that’s how it’s worked for me in the past when I’ve ordered from them.

[Formynder4 810]

1 minute ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Miniature market will most likely not ship until Friday.  At least that’s how it’s worked for me in the past when I’ve ordered from them.

Previously they've shipped my orders in time for them to arrive on release day. 

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

17 minutes ago, xanderf said:

BTvenger has some very serious constrictions on its usage - not only eating up the gunnery slot to use (a slot that is, let's say, in fairly high demand) as well as offensive retro slot, but also being extremely range-limited.  Oh,  yeah, and discard-to-use besides.

If Magnite crystals had ANY of that, it'd feel a lot more reasonable.  As it is, the only slot it uses is one without any other use for the ship, its range is "anything in firing range anywhere", and it's endlessly re-usable.  The only nuance to it is that you need to get your speed up before dropping it again, so is effectively usable only ever other turn.

And while slicer tools and Cham aren't a bad bet, they aren't specifically a counter to this, and that they exist and are annoying enough means you almost certainly already have THEIR counters on your ship (navigation officer, support officer, defense liaison, etc).

Pryce could help a SSD worried about Magnites, but in lists with more than 1 ship you care about, her limitation to only working on the ship she is equipped to (and telegraphs the turn she will be acting) will have the Starhawk simply target your other big guns, or even not engage on that turn at all.

I think the parallels to the X-Wing 2.0 tractor rules are apt - the net experience is too similar for this to stand, and I rather anticipate a similar nerf to its rules at some point.  (Well, if FFG paid as much attention to Armada as X-Wing anyway)  For those who weren't aware, as released the tractor rules for that game reduced your ship's agility and let the tractoring ship move the victim around a bit, with no counter-play from the defender.  The rule change was to add a decision step - after being moved, the defender could choose to take a stress token to rotate their ship 90 degrees left or right (essentially bringing weapons back into arc that the attacker had forced out of arc despite the best efforts of the defender...but the stress token meaning the ship was limited in what maneuvers or actions it could take the next turn, so it was a trade-off that had to be decided in how to react to the tractor attack).  Something as simple as 'when at speed 0 you can spend only 1 defense token, and it must be discarded to be used' would be comparable to the rule change that happened in X-Wing....the defender gets a choice to make, it's a steep price so not an easy choice, but they have a direct reaction they can make to something they'd otherwise have no control over.

The thing is that you need first last, and you need to be at long range for even the "I go last" round.  Pryce BTA and Demo both have better threat ranges than that.  Angle... doesn't matter too much, because the Hawk has a very specific arc it wants to be shooting from and lackluster ranged fire.

What I really like about it is that it looks quite good at subduing "haymaker" ships like Kuats and the SSD while being absolutely pathetic against MSU, the Onager, stuff that outbids it, stuff like Ackbar that's happy to watch the Hawk end its activation in long range before Ackbar shoots it and speeds back up, etc.

[geek19 6,557]

I mean at this point, isnt everything an NPE for someone?

[Ginkapo 9,320]

3 hours ago, geek19 said:

I mean at this point, isnt everything an NPE for someone?

If that someone is always Xanderf

[Cpt ObVus 1,190]

I just think the Magnite Beam would have been cooler if it also “fired” from a front-oriented superweapon arc. Or if it could only do the standard “reduce speed to a minimum of 1” thing. Or something. It just feels like a potentially incredibly powerful and dangerous mechanic that’s probably a bit of a mistake to print now, when they aren’t likely to give the GCW era any new toys for a very long time. If it’s a problem, it will either remain a problem, or require errata.

Also, we now have several different Tractor Beam effects in this game, and they all work vastly differently, and have different timing windows. 

G-8 Experimental Projectors work when an enemy ship at distance 1-5 tries to move.

Phylon Q-7 Tractor Beams happen when you activate.

Magnite Crystal Tractor Beams happen after you finish moving.

Then there’s Konstantine, who is essentially a tractor beam effect, who goes off at the beginning of the Status Phase.
 

There really ought to be a more consistent timing window for these sorts of effects. It’s as if they went out of their way to make the speed meddling mechanics as confusing as possible. If they ever do an Armada 2.0, I think Tractor Beam effects ought to have their own timing window (perhaps right before or after your regular attacks), and they ought to have more in common with each other, rules-wise. It also probably wouldn’t hurt to have their success be attached to some die-rolling, to keep their effects from becoming too consistently powerful.

 

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

14 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

It also probably wouldn’t hurt to have their success be attached to some die-rolling, to keep their effects from becoming too consistently powerful.

Or do a good job balancing them in the first place.

It may be personal preference, but RNG is my NPE.  If the dice are a statistical anomaly, it feels like I didn’t earn my win or my opponent didn’t, and neither feels great.  The last thing I want is for that to expand to upgrade cards one might form an archetype around and run/encounter regularly.

”It’s a Konstantine list.  I wonder if they’ll roll accuracies?”

Edited January 30 by The Jabbawookie

[Astrodar 594]

7 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I just think the Magnite Beam would have been cooler if it also “fired” from a front-oriented superweapon arc. Or if it could only do the standard “reduce speed to a minimum of 1” thing. Or something. It just feels like a potentially incredibly powerful and dangerous mechanic that’s probably a bit of a mistake to print now, when they aren’t likely to give the GCW era any new toys for a very long time. If it’s a problem, it will either remain a problem, or require errata.

Also, we now have several different Tractor Beam effects in this game, and they all work vastly differently, and have different timing windows. 

G-8 Experimental Projectors work when an enemy ship at distance 1-5 tries to move.

Phylon Q-7 Tractor Beams happen when you activate.

Magnite Crystal Tractor Beams happen after you finish moving.

Then there’s Konstantine, who is essentially a tractor beam effect, who goes off at the beginning of the Status Phase.
 

There really ought to be a more consistent timing window for these sorts of effects. It’s as if they went out of their way to make the speed meddling mechanics as confusing as possible. If they ever do an Armada 2.0, I think Tractor Beam effects ought to have their own timing window (perhaps right before or after your regular attacks), and they ought to have more in common with each other, rules-wise. It also probably wouldn’t hurt to have their success be attached to some die-rolling, to keep their effects from becoming too consistently powerful.

 

Considering that enemy speed manipulation rarely shows up in the top of the competitive standings, I’m not terribly concerned about it being a problem. There is a big trade off to force an enemy to speed 0. 
 

As for all the different timing windows, I see no issue with it. The timing is presented on the card. The effects are all different, so there seems to be no reason to force the timings to be the same. If the effects were all the same, what would be the point in having multiple ways to access it?
 

I am adamantly opposed to triggering effects based on dice rolling. The fact that Armada’s only RNG comes from the attack dice is a feature of the game.
 

All in all, maybe just put it on the table and give it a few games before you call it OP or NPE. 

[Cpt ObVus 1,190]

7 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Considering that enemy speed manipulation rarely shows up in the top of the competitive standings, I’m not terribly concerned about it being a problem. There is a big trade off to force an enemy to speed 0. 
 

As for all the different timing windows, I see no issue with it. The timing is presented on the card. The effects are all different, so there seems to be no reason to force the timings to be the same. If the effects were all the same, what would be the point in having multiple ways to access it?
 

I am adamantly opposed to triggering effects based on dice rolling. The fact that Armada’s only RNG comes from the attack dice is a feature of the game.
 

All in all, maybe just put it on the table and give it a few games before you call it OP or NPE. 

The trade off for forcing an enemy to speed zero seems pretty minimal, considering they’re also giving us a way to keep a defense token live while you’re doing it.

The timing windows being vastly different is possibly the worst way to differentiate a bunch of similar effects. It would be far better to differentiate the effects based on power level (i.e., Perhaps all Tractor Beam effects happen “when you activate,” but Phylons are cancelable by discarding a Nav token and subject to size class restictions,  whereas G-8 Projectors are not cancelable and can affect a ship of any size). Giving all these similar effects a different timing window often just leads to people forgetting their upgrades and feeling stupid, or (worse) feeling like the game is too complex and getting frustrated.

I understand the RNG aversion. I personally don’t mind a bit more randomness, but to each their own on that one. 

As for calling it OP or an NPE, I’m doing neither. I’m expressing concern, especially considering that this mechanic is being introduced at the end of an era, and I can picture it being extremely rough on a new fleet archetype (the SSD), which I would personally like to see work well enough to be viable. If (and I do mean IF) the speed zero Magnite shenanigans turn out to be oppressive to one or more archetypes, the only real way to fix them for some time may be an errata, and that’s usually a pretty sucky way to fix a problem in this sort of game. 
 

I’m hoping the Magnites aren’t as nasty as they look. That’s all.

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

40 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

The trade off for forcing an enemy to speed zero seems pretty minimal, considering they’re also giving us a way to keep a defense token live while you’re doing it.

As for calling it OP or an NPE, I’m doing neither. I’m expressing concern, especially considering that this mechanic is being introduced at the end of an era, and I can picture it being extremely rough on a new fleet archetype (the SSD), which I would personally like to see work well enough to be viable. If (and I do mean IF) the speed zero Magnite shenanigans turn out to be oppressive to one or more archetypes, the only real way to fix them for some time may be an errata, and that’s usually a pretty sucky way to fix a problem in this sort of game. 
 

I’m hoping the Magnites aren’t as nasty as they look. That’s all.

A super important distinction:  the speed zero defense token afforded by Concord can be locked down, and Agate’s special discard doesn’t work at speed zero.  So a standard Ravager QTCs build could still give Starhawks a really rough time with initiative (ironically a non-magnite fight is probably more of a challenge than one where the Starhawk is at speed zero.)

But such concerns are fair.  The SSD has been shown to be very, very viable in the current dataset, and it will be interesting to see if the Starhawk changes that and to what extent.

Edited January 30 by The Jabbawookie

[Green Knight 9,731]

Onager (English text) has arrived in Scandinavian stores, and can be bought by customers immediately.

No sign of Star Hawk. Not arrived at distributor yet.

[Church14 2,495]

3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

A super important distinction:  the speed zero defense token afforded by Concord can be locked down, and Agate’s special discard doesn’t work at speed zero.  So a standard Ravager QTCs build could still give Starhawks a really rough time with initiative (ironically a non-magnite fight is probably more of a challenge than one where the Starhawk is at speed zero.)

But such concerns are fair.  The SSD has been shown to be very, very viable in the current dataset, and it will be interesting to see if the Starhawk changes that and to what extent.

True, but look at the damage outputs. 

 

Ravager is likely to get one arc, so 11 modified dice at best. 
 

Hawk is likely to get two arcs. So 8+5+3 modified dice. 16 dice with mods. 

 

SSD has 40 to the Hawk’s 30 HP, so the exchange slightly favors the hawk. Though the effective HP is really 28-20. Which makes it... even-ish.
 

If concord doesn’t use counter and instead uses Redirect. Dice change to 13, but the effective HP is now 28 to 28. Even-ish. 

 

Basically, whichever ship gets back up off speed 0 first should win that exchange. If neither does, they just mash on each other

[Grumbleduke 810]

No Starhawk in next week's Asmodee UK release list; so going to be at least a couple more weeks before UK and Ireland people get their Starhawks (and Onagers if they pre-ordered them together).

[eliteone 643]

12 hours ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Just stay away from it.

To get to Speed 0, the Starhawk must at some point travel at Speed 1. In other words, not hard to avoid. If the player is padding out their fleet with cheap flotillas or corvettes for extra activation, one could always simply go after those instead. If, on the other hand, they're building a fleet around their Starhawk (like in an SSD list), then they probably won't have a huge activation advantage. I'm not saying it isn't possible, and perhaps I'm naive, but it doesn't seem so scary having actually played against one (still a mighty cool ship, mind you, but I'm not sure the super weapon is an obligatory upgrade for the Starhawk).

Also just having Ahsoka somewhere at distance 5 will keep the Starhook's speed 2 to 0 and 0 to 2 going for a few turns...not as good as Raymus but cheaper. 

[Aresius 138]

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Basically, whichever ship gets back up off speed 0 first should win that exchange. If neither does, they just mash on each other

So basically you enemy finish his movement in your double arc and you last/first.

Anyone have tested this combo? It's not very easy to do it.

[Church14 2,495]

43 minutes ago, Aresius said:

So basically you enemy finish his movement in your double arc and you last/first.

Anyone have tested this combo? It's not very easy to do it.

Not even last first. Just out activate. 
 

So you’re facing a super. You’re second player You have a hawk, SAd, 2 transports, and a Home One. 
 

-Super activates first. Does damage.

-You activate Concord, do damage and the super uses tokens. Drop to zero and magnite the super 

-Other Imp vessel goes. 

-You activate the MC80. Attack the speed 0 super. Hooray

 

Last first not required.

Edited January 30 by Church14

[Aresius 138]

308 points for givin an mc80 free shoot who do 6/7 dmg?

[spike2109 66]

25 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Not even last first. Just out activate. 
 

So you’re facing a super. You’re second player You have a hawk, SAd, 2 transports, and a Home One. 
 

-Super activates first. Does damage.

-You activate Concord, do damage and the super uses tokens. Drop to zero and magnite the super 

-Other Imp vessel goes. 

-You activate the MC80. Attack the speed 0 super. Hooray

 

Last first not required.

But then the SSD is shooting the SH at Speed 0. It's all about beeing first and have more activations to work good. But it can be good to one-shot someone so the Beam is good even if you are not  first. For 10 Points its okay. I mean, you can even Speed up an Onager to Speed 2.

Edited January 30 by spike2109

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

31 minutes ago, Aresius said:

308 points for givin an mc80 free shoot who do 6/7 dmg?

This. The SSD uses their tokens on the Hawk and is somewhat sad about the MC80.  Which just sounds like conservative token spending.

The Hawk, meanwhile, is getting pounded at zero by the SSD.

After a round or two of fighting without magnites you’d burn some tokens off anyway with two larges trained on the SSD, and you wouldn’t need one to be at speed zero to do it.

Heck, Boarding Troopers will do it.