Sabines and Seismics and Tractors, oh my!

[meffo 1,401]

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

again, thats the opposite of what i said. If it was a player ability, the removal would still happen first as its in the queue already and still (from my view) part of the detonation effect the ship suffers. 

 

Game mechanically speaking, yes. I am. Effectively, The rock is being removed because the bomb blew it up, and its the blown apart rock from the bomb that is hitting the ship and dealing the damage, so yeah, removing the rock via blowing it up is affecting the ship :P. The ONLY reason they remove it last is to keep it there for range measurement to make sure all affected ships are properly affected. 

yes, that's where we disagree. ;)

can't believe you claim removing an obstacle is an effect that a ship can suffer, but the effect from a seismic charge deals damage as well, so i sort of guess i can see where you're coming from with that. ^_^ big difference is that i see the dealing of damage and obstacle being removed as separate effects, while you view it as a single effect.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

Here's a consideration.  When MULTIPLE ships suffer damage from a bomb, the player who controls a bomb determines the order in which things happen.  I drop a proton bomb on Vader, Soontir, and Grand Inquisitor all at once (bad on them for staying there).  I choose Grand Inq to take damage first.  Now, do I immediately trigger Sabine's effect to assign a token, since the enemy ship has suffered the effect of a friendly bomb?  Or do I wait to resolve all damage effects before Sabine triggers?  Similarly, what do I have to do as far as triggering Sabine... just say that you might get a token, or actually assign the token?

Here's my rationale for the timing breakdown of the ability queue:

1. Seismic Charge goes boom!
   1. Choose an obstacle, measure range, target 3 ships.
   2. Assign damage to ship #1
      1. Sabine triggers, which goes to the front of the queue.
      2. QUEUE:  Bomb Detonation (active), Sabine #1
   3. Assign damage to ship #2
      1. Sabine triggers again, placing in front of her first trigger
      2. QUEUE:  Bomb Detonation (active), Sabine #2, Sabine #1
   4. Assign Damage to ship #3
      1. Sabine triggers a third time
      2. QUEUE:  Bomb Detonation (active), Sabine #3, Sabine #2, Sabine #1
   5. Remove obstacle.
   6. QUEUE:  Sabine #3, Sabine #2, Sabine #1
2. Sabine Trigger #3 resolves
   1. Sabine chooses to not assign a token
   2. QUEUE:  Sabine #2, Sabine #1
3. Sabine trigger #2 resolves
   1. Sabine assigns an ion token
   2. QUEUE:  Sabine #1
4. Sabine trigger #1 resolves
   1. Sabine assigns a stress token

Edited January 16 by emeraldbeacon
Added for clarity

[meffo 1,401]

double post

Edited January 16 by meffo

[meffo 1,401]

17 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Here's a consideration.  When MULTIPLE ships suffer damage from a bomb, the player who controls a bomb determines the order in which things happen.  I drop a proton bomb on Vader, Soontir, and Grand Inquisitor all at once (bad on them for staying there).  I choose Grand Inq to take damage first.  Now, do I immediately trigger Sabine's effect to assign a token, since the enemy ship has suffered the effect of a friendly bomb?  Or do I wait to resolve all damage effects before Sabine triggers?  Similarly, what do I have to do as far as triggering Sabine... just say that you might get a token, or actually assign the token?

Here's my rationale for the timing breakdown:

1. Seismic Charge goes boom!
   1. Choose an obstacle, measure range, target 3 ships.
   2. Assign damage to ship #1
      1. Sabine triggers, which goes to the front of the queue
   3. Assign damage to ship #2
      1. Sabine triggers again, placing in front of her first trigger
   4. Assign Damage to ship #3
      1. Sabine triggers a third time
   5. Remove obstacle.
2. Sabine Trigger #3 resolves
   1. Sabine chooses to not assign a token
3. Sabine trigger #2 resolves
   1. Sabine assigns an ion token
4. Sabine trigger #1 resolves
   1. Sabine assigns a stress token

if sabine would have gone to the front of the queue, her effect would have resolved immediately, since the queue is resolved front to back.

sabine's ability is governed by the once per opportunity rule. she would not be able to trigger several times from the same event. her ability would only trigger once - and you wouldn't have to pick a ship she affects until her ability resolves.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

8 minutes ago, meffo said:

sabine's ability is governed by the once per opportunity rule. she would not be able to trigger several times from the same event. her ability would only trigger once - and you wouldn't have to pick a ship she affects until her ability resolves.

I agree that Sabine triggers once per opportunity...

...and each opportunity is, "after a ship suffers the effect of a friendly bomb."  Each ship triggers Sabine separately, not each bomb.

As for the use of the Queue, her ability lands at the front of the queue whenever it triggers, BUT the currently active item (bomb detonation) still needs to resolve first.

[meffo 1,401]

44 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I agree that Sabine triggers once per opportunity...

...and each opportunity is, "after a ship suffers the effect of a friendly bomb."  Each ship triggers Sabine separately, not each bomb.

As for the use of the Queue, her ability lands at the front of the queue whenever it triggers, BUT the currently active item (bomb detonation) still needs to resolve first.

that's another way of looking at it again. each ship suffers damage one at a time, leaving opportunities for effects to trigger, even if it's all from the same "active item" (i would use the term "event" instead i think), but that active item has to resolve fully before other active items can go on to be resolved? seems reasonable.

in my view, every ship taking damage is a separate effect in the queue being resolved, as is the removal of the obstacle. more effects and abilities can be added to the queue and resolved at their appropriate timing as this goes on.

you're totally right that sabine can be added to the queue several times but only resolve once. her ability is not added to the front of the queue, though. it's added to the back.

[Hiemfire 7,292]

Interestingly the official answer for which effects are abilities hasn't popped up in this thread yet...

Q: Which effects are abilities?

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

A few abilities are constant (such as the "Gain a <frontarc> primary weapon with a value of '3'" portion of Moldy Crow). Constant abilities are not resolved via the ability queue. 

Most abilities are triggered, occurring only at a specified timing window (such as the "During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens" portion of Moldy Crow). Triggered abilities are resolved via the ability queue.

Each triggered ability has the following parts:

• A timing (when the ability is added to the ability queue)
• An effect (what the ability does)

Additionally, an ability can have one or more of the following:

• One or more requirements the ship must meet
• One or more costs the ship must pay

A text box can contain multiple abilities if there are multiple constant abilities or triggers that can add an ability to the queue (as in the Moldy Crow example).

Hopefully this adds some clarity.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

I like the point raised by emeraldbeacon, and that does present different results depending on where Sabine triggers in relation to the sub-steps of Seismic detonation even though there's consensus that Sabine resolves after the obstacle is removed.

7 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Here's a consideration.  When MULTIPLE ships suffer damage from a bomb, the player who controls a bomb determines the order in which things happen...Now, do I immediately trigger Sabine's effect to assign a token, since the enemy ship has suffered the effect of a friendly bomb?  Or do I wait to resolve all damage effects before Sabine triggers?...

I think this is where the rubber meets the road on the differences of interpretation.

(then≠after) If the trigger for Sabine is after the obstacle is removed, then she can only apply a single token across all three ships as there is only one opportunity, but she also gets to see all ships affected before entering her ability in the queue.

(then=after, but game effects first) On the other side, if the trigger can be before the obstacle is removed (immediately after a ship receives damage from the Seismic obstacle) then she must choose to add her ability to the Queue each time a ship is damaged. That would mean if she only has one token left and multiple ships are *probably* in range you would not get full information when deciding on the first ship, and if you opt not to trigger on the first ship and the second & third are out of range you give no tokens because the first trigger was passed. Given the way Fine Tuned Controls have been ruled I don't think you have to choose at the trigger which token to assign, you choose the token type during resolution after the obstacle is removed.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Interestingly the official answer for which effects are abilities hasn't popped up in this thread yet...

I mentioned and linked the post from the Official Rulings thread in one of my earlier posts. I think we've reached solid consensus that Sabine resolves after the entire Seismic Charge effect including obstacle removal, but there's still disagreement as to whether Sabine can trigger before or after the obstacle removal. It's some pretty fine hair splitting that results in further complicated interactions and different options depending on which side of "then remove that obstacle" Sabine triggers. Hypothesis of options in my previous post.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

25 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

I like the point raised by emeraldbeacon, and that does present different results depending on where Sabine triggers in relation to the sub-steps of Seismic detonation even though there's consensus that Sabine resolves after the obstacle is removed.

I think this is where the rubber meets the road on the differences of interpretation.

(then≠after) If the trigger for Sabine is after the obstacle is removed, then she can only apply a single token across all three ships as there is only one opportunity, but she also gets to see all ships affected before entering her ability in the queue.

(then=after, but game effects first) On the other side, if the trigger can be before the obstacle is removed (immediately after a ship receives damage from the Seismic obstacle) then she must choose to add her ability to the Queue each time a ship is damaged. That would mean if she only has one token left and multiple ships are *probably* in range you would not get full information when deciding on the first ship, and if you opt not to trigger on the first ship and the second & third are out of range you give no tokens because the first trigger was passed. Given the way Fine Tuned Controls have been ruled I don't think you have to choose at the trigger which token to assign, you choose the token type during resolution after the obstacle is removed.

I think it's clear that Sabine's ability TRIGGERS when/after any individual ship suffers a friendly bomb's effects, not when a bomb's detonation causes ship/s to suffer effects... her ability is based off of each victim, not each bomb.  That said, looking at the ability queue, I think that while Sabine's ability would trigger several times, those abilities could not resolve until the currently active ability (in this instance, the bomb detonation) was finished resolving.  At that point, whether her token-passing ability would queue up during the bomb's detonation, or afterwards, is immaterial; either way, they would start resolving at the same time.

[Hiemfire 7,292]

40 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

I mentioned and linked the post from the Official Rulings thread in one of my earlier posts. I think we've reached solid consensus that Sabine resolves after the entire Seismic Charge effect including obstacle removal, but there's still disagreement as to whether Sabine can trigger before or after the obstacle removal. It's some pretty fine hair splitting that results in further complicated interactions and different options depending on which side of "then remove that obstacle" Sabine triggers. Hypothesis of options in my previous post.

I must have missed it when I checked before making my post. Sorry about that.

Still I'm with what @emeraldbeacon says in that each ship suffering damage from the detonating bomb's effect, the trigger condition for Sabine's ability, is a separately triggered opportunity for Sabine, which are individually added to the queue for processing after the Seismic Charge's effect, including the removal of the obstacle that the Seismic Charge affected.

Sabine (second part, highlighted the trigger condition): After a ship suffers the effect of a friendly bomb, you may remove 1 ion, jam, stress or tractor token from this card. If you do, that ship gains a matching token.

 

Seismic Charge from Page 23 of the Rules Reference (the highlighted section needs to be processed along with the rest of this device's effect before moving on in the ability queue):

"At the end of the Activation Phase, this device detonates.
When this device detonates, choose 1 obstacle at range 0–1. Each ship and remote at range 0–1 of the obstacle suffers 1 <Hit> damage. Then remove that obstacle."

Edited January 17 by Hiemfire
Missed a comma.

[meffo 1,401]

i apologize. i haven't had the time for this recently. thanks to @Hiemfire for reminding me of the broader definition of abilities. @nitrobenz and @Txousman, i'm sorry for not reading and researching your posts more thoroughly. 

 

Quote

Q: Which effects are abilities?

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

A few abilities are constant (such as the "Gain a <frontarc> primary weapon with a value of '3'" portion of Moldy Crow). Constant abilities are not resolved via the ability queue. 

Most abilities are triggered, occurring only at a specified timing window (such as the "During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens" portion of Moldy Crow). Triggered abilities are resolved via the ability queue.

Each triggered ability has the following parts:

• A timing (when the ability is added to the ability queue)
• An effect (what the ability does)

Additionally, an ability can have one or more of the following:

• One or more requirements the ship must meet
• One or more costs the ship must pay

A text box can contain multiple abilities if there are multiple constant abilities or triggers that can add an ability to the queue (as in the Moldy Crow example).

this means that devices detonating are player's abilities that do not resolve before other abilities, but enter and resolve from the queue among other abilities, such as sabine's.



becoming tractored, how ever, is not a player's ability. when it happens, resolving it should be put in the front of the ability queue. if resolving a ship becoming tractored makes that ship overlap or move through an obstacle, that's not a player's ability either and should also be put in the queues front as soon as it happens.




going back to the inertial dampeners / kanan jarrus ruling as a precedence, it seems clear that the removal of the obstacle happens after the bomb deals damage - and that sabine's ability happens after a ship suffers the effect of a friendly bomb.

now, the effect of the bomb is not just dealing damage, it's also removing the obstacle. how ever, a ship cannot suffer effect of an obstacle being removed, so for all intents and purposes, the obstacle being removed and sabine's ability seem to have the same timing.

and no, i will not take "the ability has to resolve fully before other abilities have an opportunity to trigger" line of reasoning very seriously, because it's simply not true. the ruling on kanan / intertial dampeners state otherwise. intertial dampeners is at least two abilities, so i don't see why seismic charges can't be.

simply put, sabine should be able to trigger and resolve before the obstacle from a seismic charge is removed, thus making the ship roll for damage or a strain token - and receiving a stress in the case of debris, before the obstacle is removed as part of the seismic charge's ability.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

No worries @meffo timing and ability queue issues are still pretty convoluted in spite of FFG's best efforts at clarification.

Counterpoint to the Kanan+ID ruling of course being the Pinpoint Tractor Array ruling:

This is another example of effects that, as written, have the same timing for two things, but here the game effect actually waits for the ability in progress to fully resolve. In this example they ruled that you should finish the current ability to rotate the arc before moving on to the game effect of moving a ship when it becomes tractored.

Personally, I'm still on board with the interpretation of 'then=after, but game effects first' such that: the bomb deals damage(ship suffers the effect) -> Sabine enters the queue(but doesn't resolve) -> the bomb completes its effect by removing the obstacle(game effect completes) -> Sabine resolves her effect and deals a token.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

Anyways, here's what I sent in with the FFG rules question form:

" If I detonate a Seismic Charge, deal damage to an enemy ship, and use Sabine to give that ship a tractor token do I have the opportunity to move that enemy ship onto the obstacle before the obstacle is removed from play? "

[Lyianx 1,434]

1 hour ago, meffo said:

this means that devices detonating are player's abilities that do not resolve before other abilities, but enter and resolve from the queue among other abilities, such as sabine's.



becoming tractored, how ever, is not a player's ability

I'm sorry, but can you explain how a bombs detonation IS a player ability, while being tractored is not? This is actually not making sense.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

Bold/underline added for emphasis:

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

...

1 hour ago, meffo said:

this means that devices detonating are player's abilities that do not resolve before other abilities, but enter and resolve from the queue among other abilities, such as sabine's.

Oof, reading is hard some days. Just reread that passage and finally caught the implication of the parenthetical in the first sentence of that ruling... It seems to me like it's internally contradictory though since it says abilities specifically come from cards a player controls, then in the middle of a list of card types it has one thing that is not a card! 

If that is their intention to have this one thing that's not on a card be included as a player ability they need to specifically call it out, not hide it in a list of card types!

EDIT: Tagging @Lyianx because I just saw your post asking for clarification.

EDIT: for the record I'm still taking the stance 'then=after, game effects first' and treating device detonation as a game effect.

Edited January 19 by nitrobenz
Tag, for the record

[meffo 1,401]

2 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I'm sorry, but can you explain how a bombs detonation IS a player ability, while being tractored is not? This is actually not making sense.

yes, of course.
 

Quote

Q: Which effects are abilities?

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

 

[Singulativ 197]

19 minutes ago, meffo said:

yes, of course.
 

 

Technically speaking the Ability of the device card only is to drop a token while the effect of that token detonating is listed in the rules reference. 🙈

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

23 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

Bold/underline added for emphasis:

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

Just to stir the pot, poke the bear, and shake the beehive... the text on player-controlled device cards only covers what happens when you drop/launch/place the device, not what happens when they detonate.  Those rules are contained within the Rules Reference (or other various rules inserts).  Does that distinction define device placement as a player ability, but put device detonation in the realm of Game Effects?

(and just as a reminder, bombs never stop exploding 🤣 )

EDIT:  ninja'd by @Singulativ!

Edited January 19 by emeraldbeacon

[meffo 1,401]

2 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

Technically speaking the Ability of the device card only is to drop a token while the effect of that token detonating is listed in the rules reference. 🙈

 

3 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Just to stir the pot, poke the bear, and shake the beehive... the text on player-controlled device cards only covers what happens when you drop/launch/place the device, not what happens when they detonate.  Those rules are contained within the Rules Reference (or other various rules inserts).  Does that distinction define device placement as a player ability, but put device detonation in the realm of Game Effects?

(and just as a reminder, bombs never stop exploding 🤣 )

EDIT:  ninja'd by @Singulativ!

where on this card does it say "device"? this is not a device card, it's an upgrade card. a payload upgrade card to be specific.

[Singulativ 197]

1 hour ago, meffo said:

where on this card does it say "device"? this is not a device card, it's an upgrade card. a payload upgrade card to be specific.

It's an payload (which used to be called device before wording change) upgrade card allowing you to place a token.
The very same is a Tractor Beam weapon upgrade card which instructs you to place a token as part of your attack.
Both are under control of a player and therefore Abilities.

The effect of these token on the other hand is not explained on any card under player control, but in the rules reference and therefore a game effect.

 

Edit:

If you are implying the Seismic Bomb upgrade card is only a payload upgrade card you create the problem that you cannot use multiple upgrade slots on your bar for different upgrades of the same type, because:

Quote

A ship cannot equip more than one copy of the same card

 

Edited January 19 by Singulativ

[Hiemfire 7,292]

9 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

If you are implying the Seismic Bomb upgrade card is only a payload upgrade card you create the problem that you cannot use multiple upgrade slots on your bar for different upgrades of the same type, because:

Quote

A ship cannot equip more than one copy of the same card

 

? That just means you can't equip 2x Seismic Charges on the same ship... Proton Bombs and Ion Bombs are different payload upgrade cards than Seismic Charges for example.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

18 minutes ago, meffo said:

...

where on this card does it say "device"? this is not a device card, it's an upgrade card. a payload upgrade card to be specific.

The upgrade type icon on the card was called "device" until RR v1.0.5 in September 2019 when this upgrade type was changed to "payload" and the ruling we're referencing is from... October 2019! 

I think there is still some confusion as to what this upgrade type is. If the ruling had come out a month earlier I would 100% agree with Singulative's suggestion that what they meant was 'device card' instead of just 'device' in which case it would have been correct and would have pretty much just been the ability to launch/drop the appropriate marker. That is still an ability, it's just that Payload Card abilities are part of the "etc." at the end of the list of card abilities. However, as currently written, 'Devices' are not a card, they are a group of markers (not tokens!) As defined on p.9 and illustrated on p.22-23 of RR1.1.0. 

With all that in mind and going by Rules As Written 'device' must be a reference to this group of markers and their abilities. Unfortunately that would contradict the heading of that list of card types since that's not a card type. Personally I don't like to use pieces of the 'Official Rulings thread' that contradict themselves or the main Rules Reference so I would still personally rule it that devices are game effects and obstacle is removed before Sabine resolves.

TL,DR: Without an explicit call out it is not completely clear, but there it is: if you take that post from the 'Official Rulings Thread' into account, a strict RAW interpretation is that devices are 'player abilities' and therefore removal of the obstacle can be shuffled with Sabine the same way Kanan stress relief can be shuffled with ID stress gain.

At this point I won't argue against someone who says that's the correct way to play. 

[Lyianx 1,434]

5 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Bold/underline added for emphasis:

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

Ill do the same. "ECT" means their list isnt restricted only to what they listed in that text. Meaning Payload cards (as it is an upgrade card) is included as an ability.

 

5 hours ago, Singulativ said:

Technically speaking the Ability of the device card only is to drop a token while the effect of that token detonating is listed in the rules reference. 🙈

.. Which is my point. I totally get that dropping a device/payload whatever you want to call it now, is a player ability. But the detonation of such device, is not listed on an upgrade card. Some would imply that because it was dropped from a player ability, the entire scope of a device falls under player ability, even tho how the device detonates is not printed on a card (likely to save table/card space). By that same respect, How a Focus works, isn't printed anywhere on the cards, but spending a focus token, taking a focus action is understood to be a player ability because of what the token itself is representing.

I would even argue the reverse, that Bombs/mines are half player ability (dropping it) and half game effect (detonation), as the player isnt controlling the detonation of the bomb/mine. Once its out there, its going to do what its going to do unless interrupt by another player ability.

To that end, i would say the effect of a tractor token is 100% a player ability, as even the effect of the tractor token, is controlled by a player (where/if the ship moves). Now, that isnt a great argument, but the way i see it, Tractor is *more* of a player ability than devices are. Either devices are half & half, and tractor is half & half, Devices are 100% player and tractor is 100% player, or Devices are Half & half and tractor is 100% player ability. But i just dont see how tractor can be a game effect, when the device is not at least partly a game effect as well.

If that makes any sense.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

 

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Ill do the same. "ECT" means their list isnt restricted only to what they listed in that text. Meaning Payload cards (as it is an upgrade card) is included as an ability.

100% agree that Payload cards fall under the etc and are a player ability. It feels like you missed the point on 'device' being in the list though. The point of my underline was to emphasize that the list of "card abilities" contains a bunch of cards and one thing that's not a card. The sentence in the "ruling" basically says, "here's a list of cards: card type, card type, card type, card type, not a card, card type, etc."

The reason that is significant is because of the omission of the word 'card' from that item of the list. The list does not say 'device cards' it just says 'device' so it is most likely an intentional reference to the types of markers illustrated on page 22-23 of RR1.1.0.

As this is only in the "Official Rulings Thread" and not the Rules Reference document I intend to ignore what appears to be an erroneously included contradiction. I will be treating device detonation as a game effect until FFG specifically addresses it otherwise.

TL,DR: As I read it: the ability to drop/launch a device is a player ability which comes from the Payload upgrade cards, but the detonation of said device is a game effect because the only source of text is in the Rules Reference. Unfortunately, due to some kind of oversight, that game effect was included in a list of card types which muddies the water on this discussion.