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Archangelspiv

Is 4 Silencers way better than 5 X Wings?

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Hey Ladies and Gents,

I will start by saying I have FO bias, and I virtually never play Rebels. 
 

But, the question is in the title. Are 4 Int 1 Silencers so much better than 5 X Wings? I know they are dodgier, but in my experience green die give false hope and laugh as you remove your Fenn Rau from a range 3 shot that you should have dodged because odds. 
 

Can you Rebel guys help me out why FFG won’t make the Engineer 50 please. 
 

I was hating on the new HS update, now I am pretty excited that it’s not just a limited version of extended. 

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33 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I know they are dodgier, but in my experience green die give false hope and laugh as you remove your Fenn Rau from a range 3 shot that you should have dodged because odds. 

That's just confirmation bias speaking. Green dice do have a real and tangible effect on the game.

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Just now, Octarine-08 said:

That's just confirmation bias speaking. Green dice do have a real and tangible effect on the game.

Not necessarily. The silencer doesn't have the Evade action, and as the devs noted themselves, Autothrusters isn't worth much at I1.

Still, they're nowhere near as squishy as the TIE/in. They're definitely overpriced though. I might not like to see 4x I4, but the fact they've ruled out 4x I1 is more than strange to me.

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It definitely stands out to me in a game where you can now drop an I3 Kimogila on the board for just 41 points.  Pretty soon the I3 First Order Provocateur will hit the game at 45 points, with a single overpriced hull upgrade it could clock in at just a single point more than the I1 Silencer.  Even without it a 3 Silencer + 1 TIE/Ba or 2 Silencer + 2 /Ba setup seems to be pretty comparable to what 4x Silencers would be.

Probably not a big deal overall but I was definitely surprised to see the I1 Silencers stay at 51

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4 silencers would not be a huge problem but I doubt FFG is going to mess with that particular break point.  The TIE/ba is dropping soon and the first order isn't a completed faction like rebels or the empire.  

I suspect the empire and rebels will receive the lion share of those adjustments because they aren't getting new stuff (or at least not a lot)

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4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not necessarily. The silencer doesn't have the Evade action, and as the devs noted themselves, Autothrusters isn't worth much at I1.

Lies, Deception!

Autothrusters at i1 is the best blocking you can get. That said, 5X should be the better list because of initiative kills.

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I mean, I think they'd probably be fair at 4-per-list.  E-Wings or TIE Silencers have about 20-25% more toughness than X-Wings, so the overall list is about as hard to kill, even if the attack dice are lower.

I think it'd actually be quite interesting to see it.  I think they serve as an interesting contrast to 4 E-Wings, with a lot of mobility, but relatively low punching power for a 4-ship, Init 1 list.

//

Just struck me that they could have split the difference.  Make the SJEngineer 50 points, but Extended-only.

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5 hours ago, Nyxen said:

Autothrusters at i1 is the best blocking you can get. That said, 5X should be the better list because of initiative kills.

True - Autothrusters allows amazing blocking but arc dodging and getting a shot are much more valuable.  51 points on a blocker seems overpriced.

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Silencers:

Focus plus reposition. Lots of blue on the dial to clear the stress.

E-Wings:

Either a token OR reposition. Insufficient blue, unless you add an R4 astromech. Can have TL plus Focus, but that telegraphs your targeting intentions.

Except for when they directly face one another, the Init bonus of the E-wings isn't that important - both will be moving before most opponents - and, having played lots of games using 5 Tie Interceptors, getting a focus as well as repositioning (and occasionally double repositioning) is awesomely better than what E-Wings can do.

I have also played 4 E-Wings. They've been legal in quickbuild games all along. Nowhere near as good as Interceptors - just as dice-dependant, slightly more durable (token-less extra health vs almost always having a token), and so easy to end up without any shots or without a focus - you only get one of these a lot of the time!

 Better comparisons are 4 E-Wings vs 5 X-wings: focus or reposition for both; same Init; same health per ship; extra agility and keeping 3 attack whilst being able to boost vs an extra ship.

And 4 Silencers vs 6 Tie Interceptors. Extra health per ship vs extra ships.

Silencers are not particularly comparable to E-Wings!

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I think they'd probably be fair at 4-per-list.  E-Wings or TIE Silencers have about 20-25% more toughness than X-Wings, so the overall list is about as hard to kill, even if the attack dice are lower.

They are in quick-build events - the Seinar-Jaemus Engineer is a threat 2 ship.

I don't think 4 I1 Silencers would be that bad. I suspect the concern might be about 2-silencers-plus-stuff rather than a squad of 4.

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12 hours ago, reqent said:

4 silencers would not be a huge problem but I doubt FFG is going to mess with that particular break point.  The TIE/ba is dropping soon and the first order isn't a completed faction like rebels or the empire.  

I suspect the empire and rebels will receive the lion share of those adjustments because they aren't getting new stuff (or at least not a lot)

Yep, basically Rebels and Empire don't need to worry about future ships to balance the faction.

Current ships of the other factions are currently being balanced against ships and upgrades we haven't seen yet.

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5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

They are in quick-build events - the Seinar-Jaemus Engineer is a threat 2 ship. I don't think 4 I1 Silencers would be that bad. I suspect the concern might be about 2-silencers-plus-stuff rather than a squad of 4.

Yes, and maybe so? But personally, I can't see two of them taking 100 pts of your list being all that with another high I pilot either, as we almost have that now, we can mat test that theory fairly easily. But hey @Magnus Grendel, I might need to rethink and default to you on this one.

34 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I don't think the Silencers are better, but you know what might be? 4 x Red Sqd. Vets w/ Predator and R2 Astros might be. 

Yes, off the rails of the OP, I'd say that too. And, being off the rails I do love @Jo Jo.

 

Silencers have always been overpriced, and due to their solid stats and great dials, they will stay slightly unbalanced to the overpriced side. Now an I6 would be busted at almost any price, but even the new Rush will not be busted, as when he gains that move last ability, he'll already just be a TIE Interceptor stat wise, with no EPT, and no evade token. But, I do love them... the big, 1.0 versions only though.

Sadly, in the hands of even close to equal pilots, (4) I1 Silencers are not better than (5) I1 X-Wings. Nope. Never. Not in our lifetime.

Sadder still, there will never be a way to test that, for FFG is terrified of that squad for some reason. Just like they are terrified of (3) I1 Defenders, which I still don't grasp that red line either, as that one we've tested quite a bit, and they just aren't that scary; their dial is good but predictable.

...now that's some nice tea.

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2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Sadly, in the hands of even close to equal pilots, (4) I1 Silencers are not better than (5) I1 X-Wings. Nope. Never. Not in our lifetime.

Sadder still, there will never be a way to test that, for FFG is terrified of that squad for some reason. Just like they are terrified of (3) I1 Defenders, which I still don't grasp that red line either, as that one we've tested quite a bit, and they just aren't that scary; their dial is good but predictable.

You sure about 4 Silencers never being able to beat 5 I1 X-Wings?

In a straight joust, the X wings win sure. but Silencers can reposition and mod (or double reposition) allowing them to flank and maneuver around obstacles. Even moving first, they can arc dodge X wing's simple maneuvers. If the X wing's split arcs then your just helping the Silencers, which work better when taking fewer shots a turn.

Math game:

5 X vs Silencer (r2 4 F vs 0 F):  50% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQAAAAAAAAAA

5 X vs Silencer (r2 4 F vs F): 28% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQAAAAAAAAAA

4 Silencer vs X (r2 4 F vs F): 42% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Decent variance in the silencers favor and the silencer player is far ahead (4 silencer vs 4 X heavily favors the Silencer, even if 1 silencer is almost dead)

 

You can also run games with mates to see what happens when they break point barriers. I'm shocked you don't see the issue with 3 Defenders. They're ps1, so a predictable dial doesn't matter? They just have to cover arcs and not blank out on multiple defense rolls.

Edited by Smikies02

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14 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

You sure about 4 Silencers never being able to beat 5 I1 X-Wings?

In a straight joust, the X wings win sure. but Silencers can reposition and mod (or double reposition) allowing them to flank and maneuver around obstacles. Even moving first, they can arc dodge X wing's simple maneuvers. If the X wing's split arcs then your just helping the Silencers, which work better when taking fewer shots a turn.

Math game:

5 X vs Silencer (r2 4 F vs 0 F):  50% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQAAAAAAAAAA

5 X vs Silencer (r2 4 F vs F): 28% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQAAAAAAAAAA

4 Silencer vs X (r2 4 F vs F): 42% chance of killing

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Decent variance in the silencers favor and the silencer player is far ahead (4 silencer vs 4 X heavily favors the Silencer, even if 1 silencer is almost dead)

 

You can also run games with mates to see what happens when they break point barriers. I'm shocked you don't see the issue with 3 Defenders. They're ps1, so a predictable dial doesn't matter? They just have to cover arcs and not blank out on multiple defense rolls.

Wow, math. Neat!

I guess maybe that's why there are not 4 I1 Silencers allowed to run in the game? I'll just have to trust your math. Well done.

But yeah, Defenders are really solid when the opposing player is not clear on their dials, but we've found them to be simply solid, not in any way top tier. perhaps there are too many pints involved? Haha! How does that fair into the math?  Anyway, we'll never truly know for FFG will never allow it and your math will not prove it out I don't think?

...on to my third tea.

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12 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Silencers are some of the best blockers around.  Especially when one of them has Sense.

I can't deny that, but blockers are never an investment piece. What do A-Wings, Torrents, Z-95s, and the new TIE Interceptors have in common? They're sub-35 points. Blockers have to be (pick any two):

1. Surprisingly maneuverable for their price

2. Surprisingly tanky for their price

3. Surprisingly hard-hitting for their price

Hyenas, TIE Aggressors, Torrents and A-Wings are 1 and 2.

Interceptors and Strikers are 1 and 3. Z-95s, vultures, and TIE/lns fall in there as well because even a 2-primary with mods or missiles is good for 19-22 points.

B-Wings and Scyks are 2 and 3.

Silencers kind of halfheartedly fill all three (because their price point calls all three into question; it's not really a surprise and not necessarily a good value).

That is to say: The TIE Silencer has all the necessary components to make an exceptional blocker, except for expendability/value proposition.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

But yeah, Defenders are really solid when the opposing player is not clear on their dials, but we've found them to be simply solid, not in any way top tier. perhaps there are too many pints involved? Haha! How does that fair into the math?  Anyway, we'll never truly know for FFG will never allow it and your math will not prove it out I don't think?

Don't know about you, but I play better when I drink. Made Cuts at Crossroads and Atlanta SOS while drinking during the swiss. Flamed out when I wasn't drinking at other things.

Hard to formulate the math on defenders. The more attacks in a turn, the more likely they are to take damage. So as the game progresses, the stronger they become. Single 3 die attack? Even with Focus TLed it's only doing damage 27% of the time.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwgAAAAAAAAA

2 attacks a turn? Defenders are still not taking damage often. Numbers are double mods, which... might be pushing the numbers more towards the attacker.

Two 3 die (TL + F) vs Defender (F E): 46% atleast 2 damage, 17% atleast 3, 24% chance 0 damage.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MwgAAAAAAAAA

 

5 X vs Defender (R2 5F vs F E): 11% chance of killing, Average of 3.9 dmage.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQgAAAAAAAAA

3 Defenders vs 1 X Wing (R2 2F vs 0F): 17% chance of killing, Average of 4 damage

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AgAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQAAAAAAAAAA

 

Don't bring 2 dice guns:

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a6=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a7=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a8=IQgAAAAAAAAA

Edited by Smikies02

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19 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Anyone tried 3 deltas? Good? 

Yes and yes, but they are not an S-tier squad... those who have flown them know their dial and it is missing (a few moves (in white, and there's that desire to get the ship bonus) that would make it S-tier and therefore they are quite predictable even outside their white K. They could be 55 pts each without issue IMO. Now the named pilots should stay clear of the three in a squad list (even if one were an I1), as I would leave the FO and rush to get 2.0 Defender upgrades and run those to be sure, I1s? Nope.  

16 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

Don't know about you, but I play better when I drink. Made Cuts at Crossroads and Atlanta SOS while drinking during the swiss. Flamed out when I wasn't drinking at other things.

Hard to formulate the math on defenders. The more attacks in a turn, the more likely they are to take damage. So as the game progresses, the stronger they become. Single 3 die attack? Even with Focus TLed it's only doing damage 27% of the time.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwgAAAAAAAAA

2 attacks a turn? Defenders are still not taking damage often. Numbers are double mods, which... might be pushing the numbers more towards the attacker.

Two 3 die (TL + F) vs Defender (F E): 46% atleast 2 damage, 17% atleast 3, 24% chance 0 damage.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MwgAAAAAAAAA

 

5 X vs Defender (R2 5F vs F E): 11% chance of killing, Average of 3.9 dmage.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=MQgAAAAAAAAA

3 Defenders vs 1 X Wing (R2 2F vs 0F): 17% chance of killing, Average of 4 damage

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AgAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=MQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=MQAAAAAAAAAA

 

Don't bring 2 dice guns:

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a2=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a3=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a4=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a5=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a6=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a7=IQgAAAAAAAAA&a8=IQgAAAAAAAAA

Greed, pints of a good quality certainly assist in gaming, and in enjoyment of said game. Props to be in the camp of knowledge!

You sir are now the go-to for detailed mathematical analysis (with or without a pint I'm sure). Maybe our trials on the mat have some outliers, but I stand with 5 X-wings being quite a bit better than the impossible 4 Silencers when on the vinyl. Is that Rebel bias? IDK. 

...plus, I'm also sure because now I have my tea.

Edited by clanofwolves

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10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes and yes, but they are not an S-tier squad... those who have flown them know their dial and it is missing (a few moves (in white, and there's that desire to get the ship bonus) that would make it S-tier and therefore they are quite predictable even outside their white K. They could be 55 pts each without issue IMO.

I've flown a bunch of Defenders at a small-kit level.

55 point Defenders, while maybe acceptable for top-tables, are "drive all the new players away from the game of X-Wing" tier.

But here's the thing: Defenders, while not amazing, are certainly playable.  Maybe the limited ones could use a light touch, but overall they really don't need buffs.  Anyone who is a hardcore Defender fan from 1e can fly at least Deltas, and have a squad that, while it doesn't necessarily win everything, is good enough to have an enjoyable afternoon.  I'd say they're more playable than Nantex. I really think that's fine.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I've flown a bunch of Defenders at a small-kit level.

55 point Defenders, while maybe acceptable for top-tables, are "drive all the new players away from the game of X-Wing" tier.

But here's the thing: Defenders, while not amazing, are certainly playable.  Maybe the limited ones could use a light touch, but overall they really don't need buffs.  Anyone who is a hardcore Defender fan from 1e can fly at least Deltas, and have a squad that, while it doesn't necessarily win everything, is good enough to have an enjoyable afternoon.  I'd say they're more playable than Nantex. I really think that's fine.

I do get your thoughts and experiences and I think we are saying almost the same thing really. While I know they can be NPE when flown against new players, conversely, the way I see them is they are the easiest entry ship for a new player interesting in playing Imperials. Interestingly, I have always recommended them post Imperial Veterans Expansion to new players (especially younger ones) as they have a solid high floor, have good time on target, and are quite forgiving; especially to the all to common 'jousting is the only way' programming inherent in the learning curve. However, I have also found that they have quite a somewhat hard ceiling (as you eluded to) when they come into contact with game experience and ships with better dials and certainly piloted with experience. To be blunt, they don't fair well when the gray gets involved; and, as I have stated, running three doesn't really assist this hard ceiling issue.  

But hey, I just used them as an illustration to the rational to why FFG keeps the I1 Silencer at 51+... and honestly, I don't believe either ship would break the game in any way if this number wall was breached. Admittedly, I'm certainly no designer, or, like @Smikies02, I'm no statistic major either. I could be completely wrong, as this is something admittedly I am far more than I'd like to admit, haha.

Cheers!

...no where's that tea refill?

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3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I do get your thoughts and experiences and I think we are saying almost the same thing really. While I know they can be NPE when flown against new players, conversely, the way I see them is they are the easiest entry ship for a new player interesting in playing Imperials. Interestingly, I have always recommended them post Imperial Veterans Expansion to new players (especially younger ones) as they have a solid high floor, have good time on target, and are quite forgiving; especially to the all to common 'jousting is the only way' programming inherent in the learning curve. However, I have also found that they have quite a somewhat hard ceiling (as you eluded to) when they come into contact with game experience and ships with better dials and certainly piloted with experience. To be blunt, they don't fair well when the gray gets involved; and, as I have stated, running three doesn't really assist this hard ceiling issue.  

But hey, I just used them as an illustration to the rational to why FFG keeps the I1 Silencer at 51+... and honestly, I don't believe either ship would break the game in any way if this number wall was breached. Admittedly, I'm certainly no designer, or, like @Smikies02, I'm no statistic major either. I could be completely wrong, as this is something admittedly I am far more than I'd like to admit, haha.

Cheers!

...no where's that tea refill?

Fair enough.

//

The realization I had about ship breakpoints lately: they matter more the smaller the ship count is.

  • 8 TIE/fo won't matter at all; 7 clearly didn't.  It's a nice ship, effective for it's cost, and Avenger Swarm is decent.
  • 7 Autoblasters Scyks?  Eh, that might matter, but probably not.  I can't think of many things going from 6 to 7, but the basic concept stands.
  • 6 Strikers or Interceptors?  Well, they could already 5 + Wampa.
  • 5 T-65 X-Wings?  We'd just finished a 1e where 5 Flight Assist X-Wings was really common, so I can see launching at 41, but Kihraxz have always had the 5-per, and 40 is fair.
  • 4 Silencers or E-Wings?  Almost surely not a problem, but I understand why FFG was hesitant, and I appreciate that they've been ticking down the prices pretty much every update.  I wish SJE made the step like E-Wings, but hopefully next time.
  • 3 Defenders or Decimators or VCX?  Yeah, I'm actually worried here.  I think these lists can probably skew a bit to tanky for their offense for a time-limited game.

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