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Blail Blerg

Where points didn't go enough

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Yes I suspect we're on the slow down tilt to a better future, but its darn slow. 6 months of ignoring already ignored stuff. 

Cmon FFG. 

--

In general, I3 I4 still looks BAD. I1 I2 (I3 generic) swarms look better. I5 I6 got a little worse only cuz swarms are better now. 

Ewings: I don't think 4x50pt Generics is even that great. They should go down to 48points. The I4s have a case for 51. The named pilots aren't taken in any way and should have gone down more. Gavin especially. 

Jedi pilots: The middle ones are AWFUL. Jedi Knight generics should be 38->37->36, one point down is not enough to really matter. Barriss down to 37. Lumi and Saesee down to 42. Frankly, I think if I5 I6 goes up, then these numbers are ok. If they don't, realistically, Lumi and Saesee I4s should go down further to 41. 
(I think Delta 7b might have had room to go up by 2 points . Or the force and fine tuned could be errata'd)
(CLT should drop a point)

Oddball, all pilots. WDF. 

I4 generics, Silencer, Ewing, Sabers. Most of these could come down 1 point. (if not more, Silencer especially) 

DBS-32C (the coordinator) while 42->40 is nice... Doesn't look like enough. 

Naboo Handmaidens at I1. WDF. These just look so ridiculously pricey. Granted I haven't tried them but seriously... at that price point, I'll let someone discover it first. 

Named Ties and TieFOs. Many of these could take another point drop. No I don't see 6 Inferno being that good. No, I don't think random mosquito swarm of named FOs is very good either. 

Decimators I feel like we should get 66 point Deci's just for laughs. I bet they'd still be a bad list x3. I see very little risk there. The named ones miiiight be ok. I still don't think 2ship is good in this meta. I think they could be a tad cheaper.  

Generally, 1pt drops are not very convincing at this stage. 

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Couldn't disagree more on named jedi needing further price cuts. Force has been too heavily discounted. 36 for the generics seems like a bad idea too(opens up 5x CLT, or 5x foresight).

On the scum side scum falcon got overlooked, could've used a cut.

Lancer, YV-666, Quadjumper, weren't deep enough, and Jumpmasters could've gone down 1 more point. Named G1A pilots could've gone down 1 point too(in addition to title losing its cannon slot tax), it was only really the 5x9hp generic problem that stopped the G1A cuts... 

1 point DMS would've been fun, but might've been overkill, I'd have liked to see Rigged Cargo Chute follow the rest of the illicits down a point though.

Fearless should probably have gone down to 2, it's on balance not an upgrade on Predator, they're pretty even, and I even prefer Predator because it's got wider use cases(you don't have to be in enemy arc, and occasionally you can line it up outside of r1 too), even if the effect is weaker.

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Resistance wise they didn't touch enough of the crews and gunners for them. 

Plenty of ships could be more viable in the meta if the crews were adjusted. Transports. Falco and Starfortresses aren't seeing play cause you can't make them viable without bloating them beyond thier worth.

Starfortresses yet again were reduced in conjunction with veteran turret gunner going up. So no real change with that staple.

The R2's and cannons going up just hurt the options on the T-70's, and made the poorly armed transports even more unattractive.

The adjustment to composure prevented its combo with Snap, so that's another I4 out of the meta.

Plus the tech wasn't looked at either. Ferrosphere paint isn't seeing play at all. It's a card that could be very useful verses one list and totally useless against another. It so situational and a deterrent at best, 6 points is far to much.

Only positive was Kaz and the generic fireball coming in as good filler. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

Resistance wise they didn't touch enough of the crews and gunners for them. 

Plenty of ships could be more viable in the meta if the crews were adjusted. Transports. Falco and Starfortresses aren't seeing play cause you can't make them viable without bloating them beyond thier worth.

Starfortresses yet again were reduced in conjunction with veteran turret gunner going up. So no real change with that staple.

The R2's and cannons going up just hurt the options on the T-70's, and made the poorly armed transports even more unattractive.

The adjustment to composure prevented its combo with Snap, so that's another I4 out of the meta.

Plus the tech wasn't looked at either. Ferrosphere paint isn't seeing play at all. It's a card that could be very useful verses one list and totally useless against another. It so situational and a deterrent at best, 6 points is far to much.

Only positive was Kaz and the generic fireball coming in as good filler. 

 

Couldn't agree more with you.

Following on the number of unused upgrades that I have no idea why they were not reduced:

-Primed Thrusters

-BB units (Including BB8).

-Chewbacca crew

-Rose Tico crew

-L'ulo (I was sure he would come down a 1/2 points, while the other A-wings would go up by 1)

-PZ-4ZA (I have never even see him play at all).

Also, I can't believe that Holdo at 8, Leia at 17 will see much play.

Or the fact that as you mention, cannons went up and transports, which you were not seeing any other than Cova, didn't move in points (Was hoping for either Nodin to come down or tactical officer getting the discount down to 4, another unused card since last point updates).

And lastly, Poe still at 68. A great pilot, but compared with other pilots in other factions (Or Rey getting the cost reduction to 70), I feel it is not competitive. He should have come down also 2/3 points.

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2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Couldn't disagree more on named jedi needing further price cuts. Force has been too heavily discounted. 36 for the generics seems like a bad idea too(opens up 5x CLT, or 5x foresight).

Have you actually tried these? There's zero reason to use a Jedi Knight. They have one force. 
I hope you also realize I mean the mid-Inits, Lumi, Saesee, Ahsoka. Not Obiwan and Anakin. 

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My opinion:

The only major miss is the failure to buff missiles (and sufficiently nerf PS and Jendon) and the inexplicable nerf (?!?) to cannons. My worst fear is that Mag-Pulse will be abusive and the rest of them will be buffed for its sins.

Also Ruthless should be free.

Other complaints are only very minor. I'm fine with them moving slowly on a lot of things. I mainly wish they had nerfed some I5 pilots a little more (esp. Plo, Obi-Wan, Duchess, maybe others) and buffed some I3-4 pilots a little more (esp. Sabine, Kanan, and the bizarre Gamma and Tansarii cost jumps). On the other hand, it seems they've tested a lot of this pretty extensively so I really want to see how it plays out.

I'm not super happy with the tractor changes but I'm interested to see how it plays out; it might be better than I think. I do wish they'd actually break and straight-up errata a fix to the Jump (or just give it a config for the same effect).

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6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

...and the inexplicable nerf (?!?) to cannons.

Eh.  I've said stuff to this effect elsewhere, but I don't have a problem with the cannon pricing.

  • Scyks are priced right, with and without cannons.  25 plain, 28 Autoblasters, 31 Ion Cannon.
  • B-Wings with S-Foils are, I believe, priced about right.
  • Many other ships that used cannons stayed flat in final cost, cannon and ship/title prices offsetting.  IG-2000s, Mist Hunter, TIE Defenders.  Delta with a Heavy Laser Cannon went down 1 point net.

That's not everyone.  XG-1 Gunboats lost.  Upsilon and Lambda (and YV-666? I don't know that I payed attention) also lost out, but they kind of never equipped cannons anyhow.

Overall, I think FFG had previously considered the Cannon slot to often bring a tax with it, the ships with the slot costing a point or two more than they should (Scyks certainly did), and the cannons costing less than FFG thought they should.  Now, that doesn't mean that FFG was right in what Cannons ought to cost.  However, it really feels to me like the slot tax on cannon slots was mostly eliminated, and the price went onto the cannons themselves.  Maybe they ought to get buffs in the future, but I keep coming back to this: I think the Scyks is correctly priced, both with and without cannons, and I think from here on out, the Scyk will mostly set the tone for what Cannons should cost.  Overall, I think that's a lot better than a radically overpriced Scyk.

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31 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's not everyone.  XG-1 Gunboats lost.  Upsilon and Lambda (and YV-666? I don't know that I payed attention) also lost out, but they kind of never equipped cannons anyhow.

Certain Winners: No one (really)

Certain Losers: Lambda, TIE/D, Firespray, IG, G1-A, YV-666, Scimitar, Upsilon, T-70, Resistance Transport (not one of these will ever take a cannon that is not free)

Remains to be seen: B-Wing, Scyk, Jumpmaster

31 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think the Scyks is correctly priced, both with and without cannons

They won't take cannons though. I virtually guarantee it. They'll get equal mileage out of the (also mostly overpriced) missiles, and likely better value from torps/naked.

I will say the Cartel Spacer is correctly priced (TPV for 3 extra points makes no sense though), but I doubt the further investment will likely be worth it. I could be wrong and hope that I am.

31 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe they ought to get buffs in the future, but I keep coming back to this: I think the Scyks is correctly priced, both with and without cannons, and I think from here on out, the Scyk will mostly set the tone for what Cannons should cost.  Overall, I think that's a lot better than a radically overpriced Scyk.

Scaling by primary weapon does seem to make sense to me, as others have mentioned, but honestly I don't even know if it's strictly necessary. Ion cannon isn't worth as much as Ion Cannon Turret, let alone more; it makes no sense. The Y-Wing gets a third die for less, and it can face sideways or backward, or double-tap. Tractor can't directly do damage at all. I will say that 3 for Autoblasters could be fine; it seemed a tad cheap at first, though it turned out fine. Still, I could see non-foil B-Wings and IGs pay 3 for it in a non-competitive setting.

But HLC for 5? It can't crit. It turns off Predator and Crack Shot and a lot of other primary-only abilities. 2 points for Predator vs 3 for HLC seems like a pretty reasonable choice to make; HLC increases your potential damage by one but predator can crit, works on primary, and both have about the same expected damage on a 3-primary ship. Scyks aren't getting that bullseye much easier either.

31 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

B-Wings with S-Foils are, I believe, priced about right.

I'd rather see them cost more and cannons cost less; I thought the whole point was to make cannons must-have for the B-Wing chassis (because thematics). I still see B-Wings likely taken without either. Foils at 2 seems awfully cheap, but I don't know if I'd want to take 2 cannons with the costs they're at. One for a double-tap kinda makes sense, but it seems like Jam-Autoblaster will be the norm, which is kind of a pity. I just don't see Ion, HLC, or Tractor being worth it at all; tractor to HLC is chasing a bad investment, as is Ion.

For the Jumpmaster, if they really wanted it to be a buff, then... why did they nerf their buff? It's a super weird mix.

I'm optimistic; I still expect this will be the best season ever. But I can't help but notice what seems to be a glaring issue.

Edited by ClassicalMoser
Grammar and Spelling

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Bwings should be 40. 

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no. 

53 minutes ago, Kordos said:

With the changes to when T 175 triggers in the new part in the Aftermath section of the RR TA 175 should have gone up to 15 points

 

And this is from a scummy Sear Swarm player 

Can you explain? 

Also whats the key to Sear swarm? 

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12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Bwings should be 40. 

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no. 

Can you explain? 

Also whats the key to Sear swarm? 

Before the change TA 175 triggered when a ship with calc on its action bar was removed from the table which happens at the end of the current Initiative step 

So lets say you have two I5 ships, one shoots a kills a droid, nothing happens yet, then the other shoots and the droid player has no bonus token floating around

 

Now it triggers in the Aftermath step of the attack/defend resolution

So now your first I5 kills a droid, Ta 175 goes off, all droids in range (inc the dead droid because it doesn't get removed till end of I5 remember) gets a calc token - now your second I5 is shooting at a droid with ample tokens to use

 

It only really affect when you have multiple ships at the same initive to shoot at them, but most list tend to have at least 2 ships shooting at the same Initiative 

 

Key to Sear Swarm? Key to playing it or defeating it?

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28 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Bwings should be 40. 

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no.

Honestly? FFG shot themselves in the foot by not rereleasing the B-wing in time with this pack. The Config should be 0 points, while the base generic should be 41-42 points (Focus-barrel roll is the optimal linked action for a generic, and the cannon double tap is a joke at PS 2*. So, all those buffs are worth maybe 1-2 point). The more expensive pilots could then have their price adjusted individually to represent their power with the configuration. As is, the configuration is a trap for the generics, but may see use on the Aces. I'm not sure, though. It's clunky in Hyperspace without any support ships in Rebels

 

*You could make it work with Passive Sensors, yes. But now you're paying more points to not use all those linked actions, and the attacks are completely unmodded baring Garven Jank or (out of Hyperspace) I1-I2 coordinate.

Edited by Squark

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47 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Bwings should be 40. 

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no. 

No way. Ever. It's not just thematically wrong but it would push the power level by another whole degree.

I wish they could include the foils in the pack and just include it with the price. I don't want to see B-Wings without them, but with cannons at their current prices we probably will.

21 minutes ago, Squark said:

FFG shot themselves in the foot by not rereleasing the B-wing in time with this pack. The Config should be 0 points,

Agree

21 minutes ago, Squark said:

while the base generic should be 41-42 points (Focus-barrel roll is the optimal linked action for a generic, and the cannon double tap is a joke at PS 2*.

And you lost me. Just ask the Lok Revenants: 3-primary/Ion double-tap is crazy powerful. For less than a quarter of your list it's a nightmare, even with limited mods.

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Honestly I don’t have any real gripes about the points. Being primarily an Empire and F/O player.
 

I would have liked to have seen something done with the S/F Gunner. That 10 points still feels steep.  Though I suppose VTG who offers a bonus attack moving to 10 also shows what FFG feels is a balance to get bonus attacks. Though the S/F Gunner only gets a bonus attack in rare circumstances. 

They are also showing a willingness to do some errata and would have been nice to see Dormitz just say Small ship requirement for his ability and HSTD and the Shuttles get brought back into line. 

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38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:
1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Bwings should be 40. 

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no. 

No way. Ever. It's not just thematically wrong but it would push the power level by another whole degree.

I wish they could include the foils in the pack and just include it with the price. I don't want to see B-Wings without them, but with cannons at their current prices we probably will.

WUT. Explain lol. 

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Idk if the Foils are really worth 2. I suspect no.

They're easily worth 5, if not 7. They're a steal at 2. Especially for Ten, as he can self double-mod with them, it's worth far more than 2 points for him even if it hadn't had the double-tap.

VTG+Dorsal is 13 points. You're getting a double-tap for 5, stop complaining, ingrates.

Edited by Cerebrawl
Missed that VTG had gone up to 10

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33 minutes ago, Ronu said:

Honestly I don’t have any real gripes about the points. Being primarily an Empire and F/O player.
 

I would have liked to have seen something done with the S/F Gunner. That 10 points still feels steep.  Though I suppose VTG who offers a bonus attack moving to 10 also shows what FFG feels is a balance to get bonus attacks. Though the S/F Gunner only gets a bonus attack in rare circumstances. 

They are also showing a willingness to do some errata and would have been nice to see Dormitz just say Small ship requirement for his ability and HSTD and the Shuttles get brought back into line. 

Shuttles are sad: They're in a way a 'too-good' design. They're potentially way too powerful, but really aren't. They have the same problem as the Starfortresses: they melt very fast. And when people think they don't melt, they surprising take them to half health easily by the time the game ends. 

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10 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

 

Ewings: I don't think 4x50pt Generics is even that great. They should go down to 48points. The I4s have a case for 51.

I would have liked them to test the I1 Silencer @ 50pts too

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