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Srix

Huge ships outside Epic play?

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I'm wondering if it's legal to play a lone huge ship (read: CR90 with upgrades) in a regular 200-point game.

My question comes from a conflict between the Huge Ship Rulebook and YASB 2.0. On page 3 the rulebook says to follow the same setup and round structure as a regular game, implying a lone CR90 is OK. However YASB 2.0 states you need at least 2 ships for a tournament-legal squad, and you can't even put a huge ship in a squad unless you're building for Epic play. 

So I'm guessing the rulebook has been overridden by a FAQ or something, but I can't find that change. Could someone point me to it so I can get my head on straight with the ruling?

ps. not planning to show up at a tournament with only my Tantive; just want to surprise some friends in casual play and want it to be above board when I do it :)

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Huge ships are not legal for tournament play. They are legal in casual games.

However, many people expect even casual games to follow regular tournament rules; as an example, most people would not consider building a 1 ship list in a casual game, as such a list is not tournament legal. Bringing a huge ship to a casual game unannounced might not fly over very well. You know your gaming group and I don't, so it's entirely possible that they'll just laugh and go with it and have fun, but you might want to consider packing a more conventional list as well so that if there are some objections you have an alternate that won't ruffle any feathers :)

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On 1/9/2020 at 1:54 PM, Srix said:

follow the same setup and round structure as a regular game

This means "refer to the already printed rules, do we really need to reprint the exact same information thats already found in other sources?" So no, that isn't implying a lone ship is ok. For Epic play, if its not outlined specifically for Epic play, you refer to the standard rules for dealing with it. (They dont need to reprint how a Focus or Lock action works, when you can just refer to the standard rules for it)

As far as i know, Huge ships, the use of Wings or other command cards, or any kind of scenario (multiplayer or duel), all fall within the Epic play format. If you do any of these, you are playing epic, not standard, hyperspace, or otherwise. Just as you go from hyperspace format, to Extended the moment you put a ship/pilot/upgrade that isnt hyperspace legal in your list. Huge ships are not "Extended legal", as it were. 

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23 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

As far as i know, Huge ships, the use of Wings or other command cards, or any kind of scenario (multiplayer or duel), all fall within the Epic play format. 

Only the scenarios and Wing are part of the Epic:

“The Epic game mode introduces scenarios, multiplayer rules, and wings of ships that fly together.“

Huge ships are part of the normal rules reference, but disallowed for tournaments. I think it was in one of the streams that they mentioned it is totally fine to bring a huge ship in a casual 200 point match.

Edited by Singulativ

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44 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

As far as i know, Huge ships, the use of Wings or other command cards, or any kind of scenario (multiplayer or duel), all fall within the Epic play format. If you do any of these, you are playing epic, not standard, hyperspace, or otherwise. Just as you go from hyperspace format, to Extended the moment you put a ship/pilot/upgrade that isnt hyperspace legal in your list. Huge ships are not "Extended legal", as it were.

Huge Ships themselves are not limited to just Epic Battles. Where they can and cannot be taken in lists is determined by the specific game mode being played. Currently the 2 official tournament game modes (Hyperspace and Extended) do not permit huge ships but Huge Ships are still "legal" for 200 pt casual games in addition to any Epic Battles scenarios (all of which are considered casual game modes by FFG) that do not specify otherwise. The individual gaming groups are welcome to exclude them from casual play at their discretion. Within the Rules References themselves there are no specific statements of exclusion involving Huge Ships out side of one suggestion in the Epic Battles Rules Reference (on page 8 ) that Huge Ships take up no more than 50% of a list's squad points or threat. That aside the first sentence in the Huge Ships Appendix (page 35 of the v110 Rules Reference) states this:

"Huge ships function similarly to standard ships, and obey the rules in the glossary except as noted in this appendix."

The Glossary starts on page 2 of the Rules Reference (right column) and includes the rules for Squad Building (starts on page 18, bottom right, and ends on page 19, top left) and Game Mode (page 12, points to the official Squad Builder on X-Wing.com as where the specific game modes are defined).

Edited by Hiemfire
**** forum converted "8)" into an emoji...

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On 1/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, Srix said:

I'm wondering if it's legal to play a lone huge ship (read: CR90 with upgrades) in a regular 200-point game.

My question comes from a conflict between the Huge Ship Rulebook and YASB 2.0. On page 3 the rulebook says to follow the same setup and round structure as a regular game, implying a lone CR90 is OK. However YASB 2.0 states you need at least 2 ships for a tournament-legal squad, and you can't even put a huge ship in a squad unless you're building for Epic play. 

So I'm guessing the rulebook has been overridden by a FAQ or something, but I can't find that change. Could someone point me to it so I can get my head on straight with the ruling?

ps. not planning to show up at a tournament with only my Tantive; just want to surprise some friends in casual play and want it to be above board when I do it :)

Consider the "Epic" option in YASB 2.0 to be for building for casual (not tournament legal) games and set the points limit to 200. You'll need to adhere to any restrictions laid out by your gaming group on your own though so I suggest having them on hand for reference.

Edited by Hiemfire

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On 1/9/2020 at 1:54 PM, Srix said:

ps. not planning to show up at a tournament with only my Tantive; just want to surprise some friends in casual play and want it to be above board when I do it :)

If it's me, I probably don't want to be surprised.  I'd rather say to my friends or would prefer they say to me: "Hey, want to do a big 500 vs 500 battle with the CR-90?"  I'd find that a lot more fun than having a Tantive dropped in front of me.

Part of my background for this is the one time I played a GR-75 in standard format in 1e.  It was probably the most broken thing I'd seen on the table.  I don't know that a CR-90 is going to feel that busted, but it seems like the kind of thing that might easily be really unbalanced.

//

It's also worth noting that even within Epic events (that is, non-standard scenarios), the recommended rules suggest that no more than half a squad's points can be spent on Huge ships.  This isn't final, and they note that the Tournament Organizers can adjust these at their own discretion, but the 50% rule seems like a good one.

"SQUADRON REQUIREMENTS

When running an Epic event, event organizers are encouraged to apply certain requirements to all players’ squadrons to create a thematic and fun game experience. The following is an example set of requirements that event organizers can use.

  • Each squadron must include at least 1 huge ship or wing.
  • Each squadron can spend a maximum of half its available squad points (or threat), rounded up, on huge ships and their equipped upgrades (e.g. if the squad limit is 500 points, or 20 threat, up to 250 points or 10 threat can be spent on huge ships and their upgrades).

Organizers can alter these requirements or add their own requirements at their discretion to create flavorful narrative events. Any requirements an event organizer intends to apply should be communicated clearly in advance to all players." {01_swzepicrulesreference_v106.pdf, Epic Rules Referece, p. 8}

Edited by theBitterFig

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7 hours ago, Maui. said:

You know your gaming group and I don't, so it's entirely possible that they'll just laugh and go with it and have fun, but you might want to consider packing a more conventional list as well so that if there are some objections you have an alternate that won't ruffle any feathers :)

Oh yeah, we're good friends and they'd have a laugh for sure :) This would be the first Huge ship any of us have had on our tables, so this would be everyone's opportunity to learn the nuts and bolts of a complex huge ship without having to worry about playing a handful of other ships at the same time. And I always bring a second squad, especially if someone else wants to fly the Tantive ;) 

 

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I played a GR-75 in standard format in 1e.  It was probably the most broken thing I'd seen on the table.  I don't know that a CR-90 is going to feel that busted, but it seems like the kind of thing that might easily be really unbalanced.

Good to know about the transport. That's another reason I want to put this on the table; just to see how it stands up and if it actually is broken one way or another.

 

Thank you everyone for the detailed replies! Definitely got my question answered.

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24 minutes ago, Srix said:

Oh yeah, we're good friends and they'd have a laugh for sure :) This would be the first Huge ship any of us have had on our tables, so this would be everyone's opportunity to learn the nuts and bolts of a complex huge ship without having to worry about playing a handful of other ships at the same time. And I always bring a second squad, especially if someone else wants to fly the Tantive ;) 

 

Good to know about the transport. That's another reason I want to put this on the table; just to see how it stands up and if it actually is broken one way or another.

 

Thank you everyone for the detailed replies! Definitely got my question answered.

I'll say that the Transport probably isn't busted now.  But at the time, I was flying one with SuperDash.  I could boost and barrel roll Dash after everyone else had moved, and my support ship was also potentially passing him focus and removing stress.  It was 1st Edition, and things got kind of nutty.

A Transport is *probably* fair today, and I'd almost surely be willing to fly against one if an opponent said "Oh hey, I've got this cool looking build, can I test it out?"  I'd just prefer a heads-up.

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17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Huge Ships themselves are not limited to just Epic Battles. Where they can and cannot be taken in lists is determined by the specific game mode being played. Currently the 2 official tournament game modes (Hyperspace and Extended) do not permit huge ships but Huge Ships are still "legal" for 200 pt casual games in addition to any Epic Battles scenarios (all of which are considered casual game modes by FFG) that do not specify otherwise. The individual gaming groups are welcome to exclude them from casual play at their discretion. Within the Rules References themselves there are no specific statements of exclusion involving Huge Ships out side of one suggestion in the Epic Battles Rules Reference (on page 8 ) that Huge Ships take up no more than 50% of a list's squad points or threat. That aside the first sentence in the Huge Ships Appendix (page 35 of the v110 Rules Reference) states this:

"Huge ships function similarly to standard ships, and obey the rules in the glossary except as noted in this appendix."

The Glossary starts on page 2 of the Rules Reference (right column) and includes the rules for Squad Building (starts on page 18, bottom right, and ends on page 19, top left) and Game Mode (page 12, points to the official Squad Builder on X-Wing.com as where the specific game modes are defined).

Fair point, but to me, Huge ships are Epic format. They are, at the very least, a variant mode of play outside of extended & hyperspace. Willing to bet when FFG re-releases the app with Huge ships, those ships wont be listed in Extended format. 

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Fair point, but to me, Huge ships are Epic format. They are, at the very least, a variant mode of play outside of extended & hyperspace. Willing to bet when FFG re-releases the app with Huge ships, those ships wont be listed in Extended format. 

They won't be in Extended because it is a tournament format. The base format is casual standard which you can play with just the Rulebook and the Rules References. There are no base size or ship count limits in it.

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11 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They won't be in Extended because it is a tournament format. The base format is casual standard which you can play with just the Rulebook and the Rules References. There are no base size or ship count limits in it.

Game Mode wise, there is no such thing as "casual standard". I'm speaking purely from a Game Mode stance (which is what i mean by 'format'). Anything that isn't Extended or Hyperspace, falls under Variant or Custom game mode. Very likely, FFG will (when the new app is released) Add a new game mode called Epic, which Huge ships are likely to be part of. I can also see them available in the Custom Game mode, and *possibly* in Variants (tho i suspect they will remove the "Variants" game mode and replace it with Epic and/or Epic Scenarios).

Edited by Lyianx

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4 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I still think that a huge ship should be a valid choice for Aces High.  It's an epic scenario format, nothing specifically prohibits it, and at 75 points, you can get a lightly equipped Gozanti, C-ROC, or GR-75!

Depends on the group you play with.

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I wouldn't do it.  Huge ships are not balanced around smaller points formats.  Native regen and reinforce along with copious amounts of attack output make them a pretty severe NPE unless planned around ahead of time.

Edited by RampancyTW

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So, i got a bit more on this from the Huge Ship Rulebook that may help clarify for all. 

Pg 1, Game Overview
 

Quote

Huge ships are the largest ships available for Star Wars: X-wing. They can be used during casual games of X-wing, but are great when used in conjunction with the Epic Battles expansion. 

So, there you have it. 

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4 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

I wouldn't do it.  Huge ships are not balanced around smaller points formats.  Native regen and reinforce along with copious amounts of attack output make them a pretty severe NPE unless planned around ahead of time.

Noted. After looking at all the upgrades I considered how 200v200 might still be really unbalanced especially with a combo like Turbolasers + Targeting Battery able to wipe a ship in one round, not to mention the shield regen. I'll probably let my guys know and we'll do a 2v2 of some sort, 400v400, which we do sometimes for laughs anyway. Might put that fight on a 3x4' board just to add some breathing room.

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On 1/16/2020 at 6:29 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

I still think that a huge ship should be a valid choice for Aces High.  It's an epic scenario format, nothing specifically prohibits it, and at 75 points, you can get a lightly equipped Gozanti, C-ROC, or GR-75!

Been there; done that. Took a C-ROC (after asking the other players). It worked well from my point of view, but dominated the game physically, changing the dynamics of Aces High from an 'aces manoeuvring at speed' game to an 'avoid the behemoth or get Ionised so you can't move properly' game. Everyone asked me not to fly it again.

I thought it would act as a points pinata - one player hits it, it regens, another player hits it, to keep giving up victory points - but it took damage so quickly that it never got back to full health after being shot twice in the opening engagement.

Additonally, the System Open rules for Aces High pods specifies 'hyperspace or extended' rules just to stop people like me from trying huge ships out in a real tournament!

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1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

Additonally, the System Open rules for Aces High pods specifies 'hyperspace or extended' rules just to stop people like me from trying huge ships out in a real tournament!

And really Huge ships were mainly meant for "lets have a big all day battle thats pretty epic and fun in a super casual way" and not ...

giphy.gif

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6 hours ago, Lyianx said:

And really Huge ships were mainly meant for "lets have a big all day battle thats pretty epic and fun in a super casual way" and not ...

giphy.gif

The C-ROC wasn't a winning choice - it was the craziest ship I could come up with. I just like the looks on people's faces when I plonked it on the mat!

Overall though, it's just as well that they banned them. It was less than fun for the other players.

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