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Actually RIP this time L5R 5th ed (2018-2020)

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On 2/20/2020 at 12:17 PM, ajtheronin said:

The quality of Chaosium's books (Call of Cthulhu, Runequest) is at par with those 2. Heck, some of their releases (Masks of Nyarlatothep, I'm looking at you) put the big two to shame quality wise.

 

Free League also has some spectaculars books.

Also Modiphius and Cubicle 7 and a few others. For my part although I love the high quality design and production, I would be quite happy with something less expensive, eg black and white interiors and softcover books. The OSR is putting out some beautiful books this way. 

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10 hours ago, Evil Aardvark said:

 

Sadly, it was also a game that attracted a passionate and poisonous community - that's you guys - that left it with no chance of success. Any time a newbie popped their head in they were told how terrible it was. You can't pee in the pool every day and then act surprised when the pool shuts down because nobody wants to swim in it.

 

I'd like to object to this.  It's not 'us guys' there are a couple of names that come up time and again, in multiple places, belittling the designers, talking about how dreadful it is even when the topic is something else.  I have set them to mute.  Most of the community is supportive and helpful, trying to expand areas that aren't being looked at elsewhere yet, and I enjoy being part of it.

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10 hours ago, Evil Aardvark said:

Sadly, it was also a game that attracted a passionate and poisonous community - that's you guys - that left it with no chance of success. Any time a newbie popped their head in they were told how terrible it was. You can't pee in the pool every day and then act surprised when the pool shuts down because nobody wants to swim in it.

Do not blame the community. 99% of them are fully supportive and happy about everything.

I am the only poisonous one, I am the villain.

Edited by Avatar111

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4 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd like to object to this.  It's not 'us guys' there are a couple of names that come up time and again, in multiple places, belittling the designers, talking about how dreadful it is even when the topic is something else.  I have set them to mute.  Most of the community is supportive and helpful, trying to expand areas that aren't being looked at elsewhere yet, and I enjoy being part of it.

I'm sorry, but setting them to mute shows that you knew that their contributions were harmful and you simply closed your ears to them. Newcomers wouldn't have them pre-muted so... they hit the wall of venom and walked away. To paraphrase, all that is required for poison to triumph is for for good people to hit mute. A healthy community shuts down that behavior. The sad thing is that you agree with me that the community was one cause of the demise; you didn't disagree, you identify as part of the community, you just didn't want to be tarred with the same brush. It doesn't matter what some individuals are like, either the community is toxic or it isn't. If you're part of a toxic community you're part of the problem. I'm not saying that you're a bad person, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but you're part of the community that drove people like me away. Just think on that in whatever game or community you find yourself in next.

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Well they just announced another source book and adventure so clearly there was still stuff in the pipe.  I wonder how much more we will get for 5E.  To be honest it's not a bad run of books so far even if we don't get anything more, and the production value on these books is crazy.  That map of the Celestial Realms is beautiful.

It would be nice if we got an expanded book for ninja, monks and mass combat before it were over.  Though that's probably being very optimistic about what was left in the production pipeline. 

Edited by phillos

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3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Do not blame the community. 99% of them are fully supportive and happy about everything.

I am the only poisonous one, I am the villain.

Don't try to glorify yourself. You're not a villain, you're really just lead paint. Lead paint appears to be a useful at first glance, but in reality exposure makes you sick and stupid.

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33 minutes ago, phillos said:

Well they just announced another source book and adventure so clearly there was still stuff in the pipe.  I wonder how much more we will get for 5E.  To be honest it's not a bad run of books so far even if we don't get anything more, and the production value on these books is crazy.  That map of the Celestial Realms is beautiful.

It would be nice if we got an expanded book for ninja, monks and mass combat before it were over.  Though that's probably being very optimistic about what was left in the production pipeline. 

It's set for release in the 2nd Quarter of 2020. That's April, May, June of 2020. These were those two extra supplements we spoke about earlier. There may be another Supplement + Adventure combo coming for the 3rd quarter 2020 as well, as we were given a "six to nine month" downcycle of development. This would put the last possible "Development" coming in November of 2020, so I would honestly give even offs that we have one last Supplement + Adventure combo coming for a GenCon release in Q3 / Q4 of 2020.

If this comes in April, then we definitely have one more combo coming. If this comes in June, then we likely do not.

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7 hours ago, blasterbabbett said:

Also Modiphius and Cubicle 7 and a few others. For my part although I love the high quality design and production, I would be quite happy with something less expensive, eg black and white interiors and softcover books. The OSR is putting out some beautiful books this way. 

I'm partial to digest size books. Dungeon World, Burning Wheel, Yellow King RPG...man, those books are small, easy to carry, read and beautiful (ok, DW ain't that pretty, but 2 out 3 isn't bad)

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I'd like to use this catfight as an opportunity to thank avatar111 for his homerules, his criticism regarding l5r corebook, and his many Answers on various questions raised by newcomers like me.

I obviously disagree with him on several points, as I'm not him and vice-versa, but his repliés made me think on various things and that's I'm looking for when reading a forum. His overall contribution is largely positive to my eyes.

That being said, to consider that a forum atmosphere can significantly contribute to management décision regarding a complete product line is either a problem of ego... or an opportunistic spit of venom (and again a problem of ego then)

There are rumors about potential news coming from the french  HQ, hope they will be good...

 

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5 minutes ago, Doji Makiko said:

I'd like to use this catfight as an opportunity to thank avatar111 for his homerules, his criticism regarding l5r corebook, and his many Answers on various questions raised by newcomers like me.

I obviously disagree with him on several points, as I'm not him and vice-versa, but his repliés made me think on various things and that's I'm looking for when reading a forum. His overall contribution is largely positive to my eyes.

That being said, to consider that a forum atmosphere can significantly contribute to management décision regarding a complete product line is either a problem of ego... or an opportunistic spit of venom (and again a problem of ego then)

There are rumors about potential news coming from the french  HQ, hope they will be good...

 

Thank you.

And I hope you still play and enjoy L5R.

And if in any way, as tiny as it can be, that I made your enjoyment of the game better. I am very grateful.
I am sorry for the times that I was too aggressive in the way I was expressing myself, or overly critical of the people who worked on it, I want, need to improve on that. Nothing is perfect, nor does it need to be.
It is just really hard for me to keep inside the fact that the Mantis PDF isn't fixed yet and still contain those curriculum redundancies (oops, I did it again).

And at the end of the day, I just have a very love/hate relationship with the game.

I am looking forward to hear those rumors, or any good news regarding the future of the game.

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I keep looking for news on french sites. I'll tell you all if something comes up.

I like this game so much! It's the one that made me start game-mastering, this particular edition. In my club (I play in an association), there was more than twice many potential players that wanted to play it than the number of slots I had in the table. It's proven itself very popular here! And we have a lot of fun with it! We don't want it to stop.

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13 minutes ago, Doji Makiko said:

That being said, to consider that a forum atmosphere can significantly contribute to management décision regarding a complete product line is either a problem of ego... or an opportunistic spit of venom (and again a problem of ego then)

Oh sweet summer child...

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Although I don't play 5e, I still get excited when a new book comes out b/c of all the new fluff I get to read. Besides the Core Books (4e and 5e, respectfully), I enjoy the overwhelming page count dedicated to the fluff compared to the crunch. 

4e crunch + homebrew with most of the 5e fluff. That's how I play. 

Until 5e ends (?), I hope we get as much fluff as we can. 

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5 hours ago, Evil Aardvark said:

I'm sorry, but setting them to mute shows that you knew that their contributions were harmful and you simply closed your ears to them. Newcomers wouldn't have them pre-muted so... they hit the wall of venom and walked away. To paraphrase, all that is required for poison to triumph is for for good people to hit mute. A healthy community shuts down that behavior. The sad thing is that you agree with me that the community was one cause of the demise; you didn't disagree, you identify as part of the community, you just didn't want to be tarred with the same brush. It doesn't matter what some individuals are like, either the community is toxic or it isn't. If you're part of a toxic community you're part of the problem. I'm not saying that you're a bad person, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but you're part of the community that drove people like me away. Just think on that in whatever game or community you find yourself in next.

Yes, I consider their contributions harmful.  However, I have no power to prevent them from being harmful, because I am not a moderator of this forum, or a member of staff at FFG.  I am sorry that you have felt driven away, and am angry with the people who did it.

What I can, and do, do is to try to provide useful advice to new people when they pop up, maintain a couple of Google sheets that are of use to the community and make them generally available, sometimes put out my own bits of homebrew like a Dragonfly school, and even start a thread trying to assess what fans think would be worth adding to the game as it stands.

If I may make a comparison, unfortunately political but it's where we are.  Their is a current vocal minority of Americans that are racist, misogynistic and borderline fascist.  By your approach, every American is part of and enabling a toxic culture.  I do not think that is correct, so I cannot accept that the FFG L5R RPG community as a whole is toxic.

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23 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Yes, I consider their contributions harmful.  However, I have no power to prevent them from being harmful, because I am not a moderator of this forum, or a member of staff at FFG.  I am sorry that you have felt driven away, and am angry with the people who did it.

What I can, and do, do is to try to provide useful advice to new people when they pop up, maintain a couple of Google sheets that are of use to the community and make them generally available, sometimes put out my own bits of homebrew like a Dragonfly school, and even start a thread trying to assess what fans think would be worth adding to the game as it stands.

If I may make a comparison, unfortunately political but it's where we are.  Their is a current vocal minority of Americans that are racist, misogynistic and borderline fascist.  By your approach, every American is part of and enabling a toxic culture.  I do not think that is correct, so I cannot accept that the FFG L5R RPG community as a whole is toxic.

I'm not going to say anything more about the community here. I will address the larger metaphor you proposed and then let you infer from that what you will.

Every American, let's broaden that since it isn't fair to single out America, every *person* who doesn't stand up to racism and baseless hatred is both complicit and an enabler: choosing to say nothing is, in itself, a political act. Tolerance of intolerance is tolerance of harm to those who need protection.

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57 minutes ago, Evil Aardvark said:

I'm not going to say anything more about the community here. I will address the larger metaphor you proposed and then let you infer from that what you will.

Every American, let's broaden that since it isn't fair to single out America, every *person* who doesn't stand up to racism and baseless hatred is both complicit and an enabler: choosing to say nothing is, in itself, a political act. Tolerance of intolerance is tolerance of harm to those who need protection.

Tonbo Karasu have nothing to do with my opinions. He/She neither is "complicit" nor "enabler". He/she said many time he/she doesn't agree with me. What else can he/she do? Same goes for the few who will always bash me. They made it clear that they do not like me no matter what I say. Just do the same.

You are putting strife on people who do not deserve it. Stop it.

Your fight is with me.

Edited by Avatar111

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1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

Tonbo Karasu have nothing to do with my opinions. He/She neither is "complicit" nor "enabler". He/she said many time he/she doesn't agree with me. What else can he/she do? Same goes for the few who will always bash me. They made it clear that they do not like me no matter what I say. Just do the same.

You are putting strife on people who do not deserve it. Stop it.

Your fight is with me.

I would respectfully ask you to be quiet, you have nothing positive to contribute here. The adults are talking just now, why don't you seek attention elsewhere, there's a good chap.

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If you look at Katrina Ostrander's twitter feed from the days before the announcement about the RPG lines (as I have), you do not see any complaints about toxic fandoms or fandoms in general.  What you will find is a spike in anger about companies being dismantled by private equity.  If several of your co-workers were being laid off and my work being diminished, I you would be probably focus my ire on the reason for the layoffs.  The fact that Ms. Ostrander is talking about private equity makes it probable that we should look there.

FFG is drawing down production on multiple game lines whose fan bases are different and thus it is unlikely that it is anything about those groups as opposed to a specific business decision by management that is causing this.  I have been consulting on private equity and its impact on the U.S. employment market for a Southeastern and youth arms of a very large organization that most of you have heard of for the last 8 years.  Everything that is happening at FFG is something I have seen many times at a number of groups that we have studied.  If you want to learn more, David Dayen at the American Prospect and Matthew Stoller at the Open Markets Institute have written extensively on this topic and how these layoffs facilitate the kind of looting Ms. Ostrander has been reviling.  

I agree that some of the posts on this board have not been what they could have been, which is why I have lurked on this board for well over a year before jumping in.  That being said, it is unlikely to explain why multiple other product lines were shut down while the private equity is looting FFG to cash out an investment does.

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11 minutes ago, jalrin said:

If you look at Katrina Ostrander's twitter feed from the days before the announcement about the RPG lines (as I have), you do not see any complaints about toxic fandoms or fandoms in general.  What you will find is a spike in anger about companies being dismantled by private equity.  If several of your co-workers were being laid off and my work being diminished, I you would be probably focus my ire on the reason for the layoffs.  The fact that Ms. Ostrander is talking about private equity makes it probable that we should look there.

FFG is drawing down production on multiple game lines whose fan bases are different and thus it is unlikely that it is anything about those groups as opposed to a specific business decision by management that is causing this.  I have been consulting on private equity and its impact on the U.S. employment market for a Southeastern and youth arms of a very large organization that most of you have heard of for the last 8 years.  Everything that is happening at FFG is something I have seen many times at a number of groups that we have studied.  If you want to learn more, David Dayen at the American Prospect and Matthew Stoller at the Open Markets Institute have written extensively on this topic and how these layoffs facilitate the kind of looting Ms. Ostrander has been reviling.  

I agree that some of the posts on this board have not been what they could have been, which is why I have lurked on this board for well over a year before jumping in.  That being said, it is unlikely to explain why multiple other product lines were shut down while the private equity is looting FFG to cash out an investment does.

Thanks for the insights. I am not an expert in any of these things, but I spent a decade or so in the investment banking world - mostly equity and debt derivatives - though I'm a few years out of touch so I might well be wrong, but here's some thoughts.

There are a number of things that PE firms do to succeed: one of them is to eliminate low-return product lines that tie up cash. RPGs by their nature are piles of physical product that you print with a minimally viable batch size and try to sell as fast as possible. I have never seen FFG finances, but here's a guess: their RPG department had a slow burn product line - L5R, and a product line with lots of books, past their initial peak, in the long tail of reprint sales - SWRPG. I'm basing these characterizations on the reprint notifications that FF publish. PE firms are always going to chop departments that fit that profile. If L5R had been a smash seller, it might have been kept or sold as it would have helped the PE firm with their agenda, but perhaps not because of the number of SWRPG books that there are and how much capital having warehouses full of them ties up.

Now, if it is PE who're driving the agenda, presumably they're also going to load FFG up with unserviceable debt and in a couple of years it'll all fold. But low return rates now may have deprived us of a couple of years of products. 

It doesn't bode well for any games company that mixes printed books - which are expensive to print and hold, and plastics and cards which are much cheaper and have higher margins.

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On 2/23/2020 at 6:56 PM, Evil Aardvark said:

Yeah, the $1.07 billion Rise of Skywalker took at the box office are a sure sign that no money can be made from Star Wars. Dead property. No interest from anyone. Mandalorian, similarly, hasn't been an enormous success propping up the Disney+ network all by itself. Anyone who thinks money can be made out of Star Wars is mad.

Ultimately they've produced an LCG that hasn't taken the world by storm but must be making enough since they're continuing with it; fiction that people like but that we've got no real idea on the financial success of, but again they're continuing; and an RPG that FF/Asmodee don't believe there's enough profit to be made out of to invest the money.

The RPG had some good points and some bad points, but it was a game that always had a limited audience, an audience that would have to be nurtured, something that didn't seem to happen. Instead we got a mixed set of messages about what the game was about: it is a social game with limited social rules, it is a game about fighting monsters but the combat isn't that detailed, it is a game about politics but the real politics are driven by the metaplot of the card game and the fiction, it is a game about samurai and now we're introducing all sorts of non-samurai characters... 

Sadly, it was also a game that attracted a passionate and poisonous community - that's you guys - that left it with no chance of success. Any time a newbie popped their head in they were told how terrible it was. You can't pee in the pool every day and then act surprised when the pool shuts down because nobody wants to swim in it.

It is what it is, I'm going back to 4th Ed and maybe the future will bring something better.

You do realize that out of the 11 Star wars movies (adjusted for inflation) only 3 made less then "Rise of Skywalker" ( Return of the Jedi 970 million, Attack of the Clones 970 million, Solo 404 million) all others including the other two prequel movies made more. (Phantom Menace 1.4 billion, Revenge of the Sith 1.1 billion). Yes the Mandalorian was a god send for Disney+, it also appears to be the only draw as, as soon as the first season ended the subscriptions dropped like a rock. That aside the point was not that star wars movies and tv are not making money, it was that in a niche market like RPGs any lost or division of the fanbase is going to hurt the product. Add to this the supper high cost of licensing the IP and sales that would be great for a normal RPG game are borderline or bad for the company holding the Star Wars RPG licence. 

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On 2/21/2020 at 1:38 AM, Kaiju said:

I own everything 4e and 5e hardcopy, even the hard-to-find 4e stuff like Atlas, Strongholds etc.

If this is the end of the L5R RPG era, and I were to pick one edition to run as GM (or player ,really), I would actually pick 5e over all the others, even though there is much more 4e material (and the quality is good).

For all the criticism 5e gets (and I am ignoring Avatar11 here), and the bad sales, I think its the best system L5R ever got when it comes to actual gameplay.  The ONLY area in which 4e is better, IMO, is magic/shugenja, for sheer variety and creativity. 

Happily I've stuck with good old Roll and Keep. I've modified it over the past seven years to work in several concepts that FFG L5R uses, and other indy games. Its still very much roll and keep but seems to work much better for my group and style. Scales very well for power levels and campaign style.

We have been playing Pre Fall of the Kami and an alternate take on the mythos of the setting for six years now.

Complexity is still parred down but with tons of player derived options for the game (not neccesarily Schools and such).

Aside from highlighting and adding Social Combat and Composure (social/mental wounds effectively), the biggest mechanical changes We've made is to Shugenja's, turning them into five rank schools that unlock specific spells at each rank and a technique. Aside from importuning learning spells outside your school is a huge undertaking and great fun at that.

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I'd also like to say that wherever L5R goes i will follow and support it, even if i don't use the current version.

The FFG line has had alot of great work put into it by people who really love the world and the setting and I am very grateful to have read their version of the game and world.

I hope all of the people that had a hand in this version of the game will find a place to continue sharing and developing.

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2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Add to this the supper high cost of licensing the IP and sales that would be great for a normal RPG game are borderline or bad for the company holding the Star Wars RPG licence. 

That's definitely true.

Whilst I don't know how much FFG pays on an annual basis for licensing the Star Wars IP, I'm pretty sure it's what any board-game-and-RPG company would describe as 'eye-watering'.

 

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Tenchi, yes Rise of skywalker did make more at the box office than earlier Star Wars movies but that is because the numbers are not adjusted for inflation. When adjusted for inflation then Rise of Skywalker is the second worst grossing Star Wars movie and if we look at the profits of that movie it barely broke even. All other Star Wars films except Solo made nice profits.

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3 hours ago, Alisair Longreach said:

Tenchi, yes Rise of skywalker did make more at the box office than earlier Star Wars movies but that is because the numbers are not adjusted for inflation. When adjusted for inflation then Rise of Skywalker is the second worst grossing Star Wars movie and if we look at the profits of that movie it barely broke even. All other Star Wars films except Solo made nice profits.

Actually adjusted for inflation its the 3rd lowest, but in terms or actual numbers its fairly comparable for domestic sales with the other movies in the prequel trilogies for overall performance and outperformed Attack of the Clones.  Worldwide the numbers are down but that has more to do with the Chinese market being down over half what the Last Jedi did.  And if you look at results for inflation versus budget it almost right on par with the Last Jedi (about 5 million difference world wide) for total sales.  

There is really only 1 Star Wars movie that has truly bombed and that is Solo.

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