Jump to content
Andreievitch

This is the worse possible news for the game :(

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

The long tracks are just a few roles and a little bit of narrative play, but I get your point. But for the combat? I can't really agree. Considering how strong defensive stance becomes. the party focus system which allows to protect some offensive party members (spend one hope, get one hope). Well, lets just say trolls become cannon fodder in the later stages of the game.  You still do not want to get heavily outnumbered, and combat still comes with risks, but you don't have to avoid combat that much imho. 

Still, setting and system do intertwine very much, so I agree the system is geared towards a very specific feel and nails this one thing. So your group is not into middle earth, but a different taste of fantasy … TOR is not the system you are looking for. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Nothing overly specific.

That's a super simple solution, thanks.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The problem with One Ring is that it's very much geared towards a very specific feel.  So if you've got players that aren't down with long treks and generally avoiding combat (with that system, half the time if you get into a fight, you've screwed up and are going to suffer), then One Ring (and even by extension Adventures in Middle Earth, their 5e adaptation) isn't going to be for those players.

I picked up both the original OR and the 5e adaptation a few years ago hoping they would somehow get away from the level creep issue, and "fix" D&D5 for me, but no such luck.  I wasn't that impressed with the journey and the rest of the setting-flavour mechanics either, far too overbearing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

So your group is not into middle earth,

My group would be into Middle Earth, but not the oppressive enforced "feel" the game mechanics try to impose.  The feel should be on the GM and players to try to create in the storytelling, not on some arbitrary meter.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

To be honest, with how 5e resolved a number of the mechanical issues that plagued the 3.X version of d20 that OCR/RCR/Saga Edition was built upon, I'd be interested to see how WotC would approach a Star Wars RPG.  I really do think that Saga Edition had a lot of great ideas, but was sadly hampered by flaws inherent to the 3.X game engine, flaws that even Pathfinder and it's fresh coats of paint couldn't hide. 

I'm curious what flaws you see in Saga that are inherent to it's game engine that could be resolved in 5E?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'm curious what flaws you see in Saga that are inherent to it's game engine that could be resolved in 5E?

I know there are mixed opinions on the various d20 flavors on these boards, so it's probably not a good idea to delve too deeply into the flaws of 5e or d20 in general. But I can speak for a few the improvements that 5e would bring to the table over saga. The most significant change were feats. Though powerful, they are completely optional in 5e. And feats are where Saga broke down the most. I'm looking at you Skill Focus (Use the Force). Another change that I really liked is dropping Prestige classes in favor of archetypes. I love the flexibility of the archetype or "Subclass" structure.

I admit I don't have even half the experience in Saga that Donovan has so, he's a far better authority on the changes between the two versions.

Edited by kaosoe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'm curious what flaws you see in Saga that are inherent to it's game engine that could be resolved in 5E?

Quick bullet list (and by no means extensive or exhaustive) of things that using 5e would IMHO be improvements over Saga Edition:

- Feats scaled back to become rare and powerful, not handed out like candy.
- Ability Scores capped at 20; it wasn't often, but I did see a fair number of Saga Edition characters that pushed their key ability scores above 20 and things started getting screwy, with Dexterity (the god stat of the game by a country mile and then some) being a constant offender in this regard.
- Proficiency bonus allows for better scaling with regards to skill check modifiers and attack rolls, keeping the numbers from getting too crazy.
- Replacement of all the fiddly minor plus/minus bonuses with straight up advantage or disadvantage, which generally speeds up play.
- Full implementation of 5e's background system.  Saga touched upon this in the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide, but never revisited it (been years, but I talked with Rodney about it while working on Unknown Regions, and he said it was pretty much a "one and done" thing that was never meant to be carried through the rest of the line).
- Subclass/Archetype system would allow for plenty of variations within a class without requiring heavy multiclassing to get a character concept "just right," and replaces the need for prestige classes.  Even with just a single Jedi class, you could not only have the classic Guardian/Consular/Sentinel division, but add additional archetypes as warranted, and players would be able to get those variations fairly early (3rd level as opposed to 7th) without having to necessarily build their character a certain way to ensure entry to the desired prestige class.
- 5e's magic system, both in terms of spell attacks and spell resistance DCs, generally scale better than Saga Edition's Use the Force skill did from early levels to high levels, alleviating issues of low-end PCs just dominating encounters with the Force (especially if they took Skill Focus in UtF) but struggling against high level foes with defense scores that made having Skill Focus in UtF almost a requirement if you wanted to have a chance to affect them.  5e's magic system would still need a little finessing, but the precedent of 0th level spell/effects (i.e. cantrips) that can be used repeatedly and grow in effect at certain level benchmarks means that you can indeed have characters who gradually grow stronger in the Force as they get more experienced, but aren't limited to a Vancian-esque casting system (a D&D sacred cow that's not going away anytime soon).  There was an Unearthed Arcana for an early attempt at Psionics in 5e, which offered base effects that could be used repeatedly, but could be bolstered by spending resources, reflecting extra effort being put into using the power (sort of like OCR/RCR's spending Vitality to use Force skills and feats, but without directly hurting yourself to use those powers).

There would be some trade-offs, such as losing the flexibility of Saga Edition's feat'n'talent system, but that same flexibility could lead to some truly game-breaking combinations that were never intended to occur in the first place.  Condition Track is generally solid, though re-examination of it might not hurt, so as to avoid an over-focus on "CT Killer" builds, especially in the system's later levels where the serious opposition had so many hit points it was simply more efficient to push your foe to the bottom of the condition track than zero out their hit points.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy Saga Edition and it's in my Top 5 of favorite RPGs to play, and I have a lot of fond and fun memories of campaigns that I've played and run from over the years.  But the system has its flaws, especially once PCs get past 10th level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sad to hear this news, particularly the fate of all the great folks at FFG that will be impacted. I'll cross my fingers that some of them may land something with Lucas Story Group:)

Broadly speaking, I'm not really surprised that they are ending the line. They have really done great work but we have a pretty complete product line for SW at this point. Sure there are things I'd still like them to make but really I've got most of what I need to run a great game. I do hope they keep a skeleton crew (and some freelancers) around to keep the game in print for years to come. I'm sure we each have our wish list of final products we'd like to see but I am grateful for all of the great books we've got.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, VadersMarchKazoo said:

I do hope they keep a skeleton crew (and some freelancers) around to keep the game in print for years to come. I'm sure we each have our wish list of final products we'd like to see but I am grateful for all of the great books we've got.

If FFG can continue to produce 3-4 books per year for the (combined) Star Wars line, then I'm in favor of them continuing this product. If they can't (which I see as more likely) then I'd rather another company take a new crack at Star Wars, preferably with a radically different system (different from FFG's and also different from D20 & D6...I don't need more of the same olds).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If FFG can continue to produce 3-4 books per year for the (combined) Star Wars line, then I'm in favor of them continuing this product. If they can't (which I see as more likely) then I'd rather another company take a new crack at Star Wars, preferably with a radically different system (different from FFG's and also different from D20 & D6...I don't need more of the same olds).

Even if they cant do 3 to 4 books I would still prefer FFG keep it and I doubt they will lose it since x-wing and Armada and Destiny have been pretty successful. I would rather have more FFG books. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Even if they cant do 3 to 4 books I would still prefer FFG keep it and I doubt they will lose it since x-wing and Armada and Destiny have been pretty successful. I would rather have more FFG books. 

I'm aware it's bundled with the minis, and I think that's a shame for the RPG if all they end up doing is sitting on the RPG and possibly doing reprints. More FFG Star Wars books would be good, but if that's not going to happen, then I'd much prefer someone else doing a new RPG over nothing (or almost nothing) new coming out at all. I don't value FFG sitting on reprints (at best).

Edited by HappyDaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

- Subclass/Archetype system would allow for plenty of variations within a class without requiring heavy multiclassing to get a character concept "just right," and replaces the need for prestige classes.  Even with just a single Jedi class, you could not only have the classic Guardian/Consular/Sentinel division, but add additional archetypes as warranted, and players would be able to get those variations fairly early (3rd level as opposed to 7th) without having to necessarily build their character a certain way to ensure entry to the desired prestige class.

We thinking of the same Saga system and same 5E? Even within a single class 1-20 two Saga characters can be completely different. 5E's subclasses are only secondary features and the same for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, NanashiAnon said:

We thinking of the same Saga system and same 5E? Even within a single class 1-20 two Saga characters can be completely different. 5E's subclasses are only secondary features and the same for everyone.

If Force abilities were set up with the flexibility of the 5e Warlock class (some abilities tied to slots limited by short rests and others near-always on) it might be a good way to go.

Edited by HappyDaze
Autocorrect sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sad news and I sincerely hope that the members of the RPG team land on their feet somehow. They did a great job, and it just sucks to be laid off like this. Their plight is significantly worse than mine; having a RPG line or two end is something you experience quite often when you play lots of systems. FFG's Star Wars had a longer and more fruitful run than most. Heck, I play games/editions that have been "dead" for decades; Star Wars has enough material to last a really long time.

So, good luck to developers, writers and all the others who created these games!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Even if they cant do 3 to 4 books I would still prefer FFG keep it and I doubt they will lose it since x-wing and Armada and Destiny have been pretty successful. I would rather have more FFG books. 

Well, then it seems that Armada and X-Wing are now the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, much like the collectible minis game was for WotC back when they had the license.

As you said, so long as those two lines continue to be reliably strong sales performers, FFG has a good reason to hang on to the license, and perhaps even continue with limited support of the RPG beyond just the occasional reprints of core material.  But if one or both of those lines begins to tank over the next couple years, I wouldn't be surprised if FFG lets go of the license much as WotC did once their collectible minis line petered out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, then it seems that Armada and X-Wing are now the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, much like the collectible minis game was for WotC back when they had the license.

As you said, so long as those two lines continue to be reliably strong sales performers, FFG has a good reason to hang on to the license, and perhaps even continue with limited support of the RPG beyond just the occasional reprints of core material.  But if one or both of those lines begins to tank over the next couple years, I wouldn't be surprised if FFG lets go of the license much as WotC did once their collectible minis line petered out.

Also add Legion that is doing pretty well. I would be very surprised if FFG would lose the license any time soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Also add Legion that is doing pretty well. I would be very surprised if FFG would lose the license any time soon.

There is always the option that Disney wants more money. That seems to have been the issue with TOR. The licence got too expensive and someone was unwilling to pay that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw this and at first I almost panicked- the system is so good and allows for a style of play that I don't find in other RPGs that I am involved with.  A company makes its decisions based on what is best for it and I don't fault Fantasy Flight for their decision.  I actually have a hard time getting others into the game for various reasons and I imagine that is echoed across the marketspace leading to a lower market share than they would want.  

I stood up my own business venture to start making ships for folks to use in game and have met the same thing- while there is HUGE star wars fandom, I can't seem to get enough interest to generate sales.  I look at my SWRPG shelf of 20-ish books and know that it's daunting for any GM to come into now because you can't keep up with all the books across 3 systems for all the PC options available in every book.  And I don't even have a full collection!

I'd love to see them come out with a re-working of the material into a GM guide and Player's guide that encompasses all the races and classes into just a few books to make it easy for a player to get in, but as others have said- even with what's out there folks can play on forever.......  but new players won't be attracted to the game when new material dries up and you don't see it in stores anymore...

 

This is sad news.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/11/2020 at 12:48 PM, Sturn said:

Well, for me it's the system. I can't see myself running another system. If SW goes 5e or some other game system, the best I can hope for is sourcebooks from it. FFG's narrative dice system is what I hope lives on.

I am in 1000% agreement- the system and those narrative dice make it for me.  I suppose if we had to we could use that system and just gen up our own stuff for it forever- I'm more worried about future players not getting in because of no exposure or worse- a different system taking over and all new players flocking to it and calling us crotchety for wanting to stick to our "old school" system...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this was answered before (gave the thread a quick lookover and did not see anything similar) but does this only mean they will no longer be reprinting the books then? Or does it mean they will no longer make new material but will continue to sell the RPG books? I'm just wondering if that means I need to go ransack my local stores right now. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Redeemer31 said:

Not sure if this was answered before (gave the thread a quick lookover and did not see anything similar) but does this only mean they will no longer be reprinting the books then? Or does it mean they will no longer make new material but will continue to sell the RPG books? I'm just wondering if that means I need to go ransack my local stores right now. :)

I doubt it means either. It could simply mean that they will be using only freelancers for the foreseeable future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Redeemer31 said:

Not sure if this was answered before (gave the thread a quick lookover and did not see anything similar) but does this only mean they will no longer be reprinting the books then? Or does it mean they will no longer make new material but will continue to sell the RPG books? I'm just wondering if that means I need to go ransack my local stores right now. :)

Right now, it could mean either, neither, or both. FFG has made no public statement about the future of this or any of their other RPG lines in the wake of the layoffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...