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This is the worse possible news for the game :(

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41 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Yep, gotta agree here that the narrative dice system is not for everybody. I can't count the number of times that a player looked at me with puzzled eyes after rolling the dice because he didn't really know if he just succeeded or not.

d20 systems flaw is also his biggest strenght: simplicity. I think that's why it is still going strong and will continue to do so.

I'll soon start GMing a Trudvang Chronicles campaign that use a d20 system and I actually find it refreshing to go back to a more straightforward system.

Actually the SAGA edition had quite some intruiging approaches on D20. It's only weakness was how force powers were handled like a card deck.

Edited by DarthDude

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1 hour ago, DarthDude said:

Actually the SAGA edition had quite some intruiging approaches on D20. It's only weakness was how force powers were handled like a card deck.

Saga was good. But it just didnt feel like Star Wars.  and the way the game mechanic worked was wonky

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2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

The narrative dice system is nice for some things and to some people, but it repels many players too and I doubt it will show the staying power of d20 games. In truth, I think the narrative dice system is as "played out" as the d20 version ever was; they've already started putting out their "greatest hits albums" with the gear and speeders books.

Switching to 'greatest hits albums' is likely what got the division canned.  They either were hamstrung by license restrictions, or they just ran out of creative juice.  Sadly, there is a lot of things they could have done to expand the game, but they kind of phoned it in after FAD released.

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

Yep, gotta agree here that the narrative dice system is not for everybody. I can't count the number of times that a player looked at me with puzzled eyes after rolling the dice because he didn't really know if he just succeeded or not.

d20 systems flaw is also his biggest strenght: simplicity. I think that's why it is still going strong and will continue to do so.

I'll soon start GMing a Trudvang Chronicles campaign that use a d20 system and I actually find it refreshing to go back to a more straightforward system.

I have to disagree a lot on this.  The D20 system is simple in comparison to 2nd edition for sure, but it's still a complicated mess of charts, graphs, math, and dry, uninspiring combat dice rolling.

The narrative dice system is one of the most innovative things I've seen in RPGs for a LONG time.  And it works great, especially for Star Wars.  It also works for other systems.  While there is a learning curve, and the hardcore D20 enthusiasts that have no experience with any other RPG systems instantly throw their hands up with frustration, the system is actually way easier than D20.  I've found that some players just REFUSE to even attempt to learn the dice, but those people also refuse to ever learn any other RPG system.  They are the kind of people that also refuse to watch new shows, read new books, play new board games, learn new skills, go to new restaurants, etc.  They tend to live in their bubble and don't like to explore out of it.  Not a **** thing wrong with that, but it says more about the people than the system.

The people that have given it a fair chance have, in very short order, been won over completely.  I know over a dozen people now that are turned off by other games due to how boring the dice systems are in comparison.   While we've grown a little tired of the SW universe after years and years of playing in it, we are hooked on the system and are now migrating other systems into the FFG narrative dice platform.

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57 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Saga was good. But it just didnt feel like Star Wars.  and the way the game mechanic worked was wonky

My secret desire would be either a 2D20 version of Star Wars, should the license change ownership, or a modernized version of D6.

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6 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

My secret desire would be either a 2D20 version of Star Wars, should the license change ownership, or a modernized version of D6.

The Narrative dice system really is a modernized D6 mechanic. If you think about it. It is very flyby the seat of your pants but have much more depth than D6 had and does not have the power curve problems of D6

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1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I don’t think you understand what played out means...

Worn out or used up, which happens after 30 years of play and 5 editions, even if you can’t see it. Just because the system allows you and your gaming group the comfort of familiarity doesn’t mean it’s not those things.
 


 

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31 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Worn out or used up, which happens after 30 years of play and 5 editions, even if you can’t see it. Just because the system allows you and your gaming group the comfort of familiarity doesn’t mean it’s not those things.

That’s like saying Monopoly isn’t a good game because it’s been around for 9 decades.

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2 minutes ago, Stethemessiah said:

Monopoly isn't a good game for great many reasons, its steadfast refusal to go away and die being just one of them.

Or the fact that the way we play it is designed to be an instructional tool about the evils of capitalism, and that the game isn't sold with the "Prosperity" rules that are set up to show how communal interests helps everyone rise ahead.

It was never meant to be the kind of game it is.

And honestly, the two biggest things it has going for it are A) It's super simple and easy to learn/play, and B) It's incredibly licensable, and licensed variants of the game are both easy and cheap to produce and sell en masse to their various fandoms.

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1 hour ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Worn out or used up, which happens after 30 years of play and 5 editions, even if you can’t see it. Just because the system allows you and your gaming group the comfort of familiarity doesn’t mean it’s not those things.
 


 

Worn out? It is a gaming system that is still evolving not a pair of socks. 
Used up? It is not a limited resource like a can of coke or a box if cor flakes. 
Our comfort or familiarity has nothing to do with because if that was the case we would still be playing 3.5. 
Sorry buddy, but this is just bs reasoning. And reasoning is in air quotes there. 

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1 hour ago, Eoen said:

That’s like saying Monopoly isn’t a good game because it’s been around for 9 decades.

No it’s not, because I never said it wasn’t good but that it’s played out.

And Monopoly is a great comparison. Change some of the pieces and a few of the themes and voila! New edition, even though it’s only really offering familiarity and is still played out, just like D&D.

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11 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

No it’s not, because I never said it wasn’t good but that it’s played out.

And Monopoly is a great comparison. Change some of the pieces and a few of the themes and voila! New edition, even though it’s only really offering familiarity and is still played out, just like D&D.

Not really. 5E has basically revitalized D&D and brought in lots of new players - largely thanks to the more familiar systems that 4E didn't have, return to many few the roots of the game, and the Renaissance of tabletop game streaming shows/podcasts that we're seeing happen right now. The first new setting in forever is being officially canonized in WotC eyes with the Wildemount guide coming out (making Exandria - Critical Role's setting - an official D&D setting), so many more people are playing, and its earning a place in mainstream pop culture that it didn't have before.

We're also getting two animated TV shows based on D&D streamed games on Amazon and NBC's new streaming platform, and Critical Role has basically become it's own company/business/studio thanks to what's happened with their show. 

It's a good time to be into D&D.

Edited by StarkJunior

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19 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Worn out? It is a gaming system that is still evolving not a pair of socks. 
Used up? It is not a limited resource like a can of coke or a box if cor flakes. 
Our comfort or familiarity has nothing to do with because if that was the case we would still be playing 3.5. 
Sorry buddy, but this is just bs reasoning. And reasoning is in air quotes there. 

BS reasoning would be “my friends and I enjoy (subject here) and therefore we’re too close to realize said something is played out, despite my own mentioning of how long we’ve been playing it and how many times it’s needed to be revamped to stay relevant after it’s been used up.”

And I know nothing of this Darth Dude. Is he your nemesis or something on these forums?

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1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Not really. 5E has basically revitalized D&D and brought in lots of new players - largely thanks to the Renaissance of tabletop game streaming shows/podcasts that we're seeing happen right now. The first new setting in forever is being officially canonized in WotC eyes with the Wildemount guide coming out (making Exandria - Critical Role's setting - an official D&D setting).

We're also getting two animated TV shows from D&D streamed games, and Critical Role has basically become it's own company/business/studio thanks to what's happened with their show. 

Oh wow, you’re right. New players and all this new popularity must mean the game system couldn’t be considered “old hat” at all.

 

*fart noise

 

By that logic the world’s discovery and adoption of comic book characters as popular media must make their stories and themes all fresh and new.

The D&D system is old. It’s gone through 5 editions! Just because the rest of the world is catching on to it doesn’t mean it’s fresh and new. 

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7 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Oh wow, you’re right. New players and all this new popularity must mean the game system couldn’t be considered “old hat” at all.

 

*fart noise

 

By that logic the world’s discovery and adoption of comic book characters as popular media must make their stories and themes all fresh and new.

The D&D system is old. It’s gone through 5 editions! Just because the rest of the world is catching on to it doesn’t mean it’s fresh and new. 

I didn't say it was fresh and new, I said it's revitalized... which you know, it has. And yeah, a lot of the comic book stories and characters are being discovered by new people for the first time, and their stories are being told in different ways now thanks to the movies and shows.

Yeah, they've been revitalized, too, and transformed through new media avenues. (The stories and characters, not so much the comics industry, but that's like seven other separate issues.)

Edited by StarkJunior

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9 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

New players and all this new popularity must mean the game system couldn’t be considered “old hat” at all.

That is some more bs reasoning right there... 

 

10 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Just because the rest of the world is catching on to it doesn’t mean it’s fresh and new. 

That is a pretty strawman you built there! Oh no, you knocked it down!

 

24 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

And I know nothing of this Darth Dude. Is he your nemesis or something on these forums?

Not really, but let’s just say that has stamp of approval is not something I would be proud of. 
 

15 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

*fart noise

Yeah, no kidding!

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7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I didn't say it was fresh and new, I said it's revitalized... which you know, it has. And yeah, a lot of the comic book stories and characters are being discovered by new people for the first time, and their stories are being told in different ways now thanks to the movies and shows.

Yeah, they've been revitalized, too, and transformed through new media avenues. (The stories and characters, not so much the comics industry, but that's like seven other separate issues.)

Revitalized by popularity doesn’t change the d20 game system. That’s what I’m saying is played out. It doesn’t mean it’s bad, but it’s not the end all be all of game systems, in fact it has the same issues it always has had in all its editions. 
 

You can wrap it up however you like with new settings, classes, races, and celebrity players, but at its core it’s still the same worn out system. Will it carry on? Absolutely. But like other well known products they’ll change just enough to keep/make it marketable and to give you that new feeling, but it’s still the same thing.

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1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

That is some more bs reasoning right there... 

 

That is a pretty strawman you built there! Oh no, you knocked it down!

 

Not really, but let’s just say that has stamp of approval is not something I would be proud of. 
 

Yeah, no kidding!

Wow... your points are so solid and add so much to the discussion. I’ve completely changed my mind about the d20 system being old, still having the same issues it’s always had, and that it’s overused due to its familiarity and recognizability and is therefore played out.
 

You, sir, have won the Internet.

Look, you can still like D&D. I still do. But it’s an old system that has name brand recognition and pretty much pushes its own cultural hegemony on the rpg genre. Does that make it the best? No. Does it make it bad? Not at all. But no matter how you tweak it or its trend in popularity, it’s still the same decades old game system at its core. 

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53 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

And I know nothing of this Darth Dude. Is he your nemesis or something on these forums?

In fact everytime I shared my views in one of these forums, Dante and his cronies gang up on me. While my philosophy is everybody should do/play whatever they like, they always want to force their views on others.

That's why I put those trolls on my ignore list and since life is so much more enjoyable. 😁 But I feel flattered, if they consider me to be their "nemesis". Hopefully with adversary 5. 😂

Edited by DarthDude

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7 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

While my philosophy is everybody should do/play whatever they like, they always want to force their views on others.

You mean how you were talking about how we people who liked a certain SW movie were pushing/supporting a right wing agenda!?

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26 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Look, you can still like D&D. I still do. But it’s an old system that has name brand recognition and pretty much pushes its own cultural hegemony on the rpg genre. Does that make it the best? No. Does it make it bad? Not at all. But no matter how you tweak it or its trend in popularity, it’s still the same decades old game system at its core.

This is quite a different point then the one you were initially making. I don’t think anyone here would have any issues with this changed tune. 
 

26 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

You, sir, have won the Internet.

Now that expression is played out!

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6 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Switching to 'greatest hits albums' is likely what got the division canned.  They either were hamstrung by license restrictions, or they just ran out of creative juice.  Sadly, there is a lot of things they could have done to expand the game, but they kind of phoned it in after FAD released.

I have to disagree a lot on this.  The D20 system is simple in comparison to 2nd edition for sure, but it's still a complicated mess of charts, graphs, math, and dry, uninspiring combat dice rolling.

The narrative dice system is one of the most innovative things I've seen in RPGs for a LONG time.  And it works great, especially for Star Wars.  It also works for other systems.  While there is a learning curve, and the hardcore D20 enthusiasts that have no experience with any other RPG systems instantly throw their hands up with frustration, the system is actually way easier than D20.  I've found that some players just REFUSE to even attempt to learn the dice, but those people also refuse to ever learn any other RPG system.  They are the kind of people that also refuse to watch new shows, read new books, play new board games, learn new skills, go to new restaurants, etc.  They tend to live in their bubble and don't like to explore out of it.  Not a **** thing wrong with that, but it says more about the people than the system.

The people that have given it a fair chance have, in very short order, been won over completely.  I know over a dozen people now that are turned off by other games due to how boring the dice systems are in comparison.   While we've grown a little tired of the SW universe after years and years of playing in it, we are hooked on the system and are now migrating other systems into the FFG narrative dice platform.

I know players that play a lot of different systems, and some of them do not like FFG's "Roll a Handful of Lucky Charms" dice mechanics. They gave it a fair chance and suggesting that those that do not like it "live in a bubble" and that not liking it "says more about the people than the system" is insulting. I know many people that have played it for a while and then go back to/on to other systems because they prefer games with non-narrative mechanics. To many them (and myself), narrative mechanics are boring crutches and disruptive to their in-character interactions with the game world.

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