Jump to content
Andreievitch

This is the worse possible news for the game :(

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm somewhat in that camp. I first discovered the game about a year ago, and already have about half the books. My main worry about this situation is that reprints will stop and second-hand prices will go up dramatically, because I still want to pick up many of the books I'm lacking.

This is one of the rare games I've ever made a point of buying every single book for (and I played my first RPG in 1979!). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ebak said:

I am hoping that it isn't the end and that they'll either be kickstarting books (entirely open for that) or simply shifting the model to freelance work.

Edit: I do think that if the game was able to be distributed digitally they might have gotten more sales, alas the contract supposedly doesn't allow from that (from the rumours around at least).

If they do continue the line, it's most likely going to be the freelancer model.  Which was mostly what they were doing anyway, just now there's not an RPG department to coordinate things.

And the "no digital/PDF sales" isn't rumor, but hard fact as confirmed by WotC (when Rodney Thompson was in charge of the Saga Edition version) and Sam Stewart (formerly lead dev of the game).  With the full blame for that state of affairs (that "electronic media" is separate from the RPG license) can be placed at West End Games' feet, with the former LucasArts branch of LFL enforcing that state of affairs for a great many years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

If they do continue the line, it's most likely going to be the freelancer model.  Which was mostly what they were doing anyway, just now there's not an RPG department to coordinate things.

And the "no digital/PDF sales" isn't rumor, but hard fact as confirmed by WotC (when Rodney Thompson was in charge of the Saga Edition version) and Sam Stewart (formerly lead dev of the game).  With the full blame for that state of affairs (that "electronic media" is separate from the RPG license) can be placed at West End Games' feet, with the former LucasArts branch of LFL enforcing that state of affairs for a great many years.

Of course to be fair to WEG we were using 386s then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Of course to be fair to WEG we were using 386s then.

Yep. I kinda find it difficult to fault WEG for not securing rights for digital distribution or PDFs in 1987, when internet access wasn't a given (not to mention slow), and the PDF format didn't exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Yep. I kinda find it difficult to fault WEG for not securing rights for digital distribution or PDFs in 1987, when internet access wasn't a given (not to mention slow), and the PDF format didn't exist.

Its not even a question of "wasn't a given" at that point. 

The first Internet Service Provider became publicly available in 1990 and the first public web-page was published in 1991!

Everything before that was interconnected private networks and unless you worked for an institution or major corporation that had an interconnected network you weren't online at all.

I remember because 1990 was the year I graduated from high school. Prior to that 99+% of the population, including businesses, were offline.

Only Yoda or Palpatine would have made that call...

Edited by Vondy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hadn't really been paying close attention to how many of the titles are "currently unavailable" or "out of stock" on various online sites (e.g., Amazon, CoolStuffInc, and Miniature Market). For those looking at buying into the game now, that's a lot of ugly gaps and the inability to keep the products on-shelf even when the RPG department was staffed might have been a big deterrent to the game's growth. I'd imagine it will get worse before/if it ever gets better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like most other rpg departments on these forums as well as reddit and twitter comments regarding the layoffs have the overall belief that FFG rpg stuff will move to utilizing freelance workers rather than a full time staff (they still will have some people maintain full time employment as those who finalize the work).

I’ve seen nothing on FFG losing any licenses. 
 

If this is all true I’m not sure what it’ll do for the development speed of future projects, but at least stuff will continue to be reprinted. 
 

I think saying things like “the game is dead” until we have concrete facts is a REAL and immediate problem for this game. If word spreads that it’s over and it’s not, potential new players won’t pick it up, sales will drop, and Asmodee will actually drop the whole line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

If this is all true I’m not sure what it’ll do for the development speed of future projects, but at least stuff will continue to be reprinted.

While reprints are up in the air, if FFG is going to do any future projects using freelancers, it really won't be that much of a change from how the SW books were handled prior to the layoffs, as those were largely written by freelance writers and then sent to playtesters (also freelance).  All FFG needs is someone to coordinate each project, which if they are going to par it down to one or two books a year is something that can easily be handled by a single internal position, who can probably also handle such duties for FFG's other RPG lines.

Since FFG no longer seems to be using an overseas printer, it's possible the release schedule will move quicker, as products being stuck "on the boat" was one of the bigger factors resulting in books take so long to come out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A single full time line-editor should be able to handle several books per year if they have an experienced freelance writers, artists, and layout people available to work with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I hadn't really been paying close attention to how many of the titles are "currently unavailable" or "out of stock" on various online sites (e.g., Amazon, CoolStuffInc, and Miniature Market). For those looking at buying into the game now, that's a lot of ugly gaps and the inability to keep the products on-shelf even when the RPG department was staffed might have been a big deterrent to the game's growth. I'd imagine it will get worse before/if it ever gets better.

It’s the low print runs coupled with shipping issues and US/China trade wars, and the lack of PDFs when books aren’t available, that’s hurting the line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Eoen said:

It’s the low print runs coupled with shipping issues and US/China trade wars, and the lack of PDFs when books aren’t available, that’s hurting the line.

Do we have any reason to believe that any of that will be changing for the better?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Do we have any reason to believe that any of that will be changing for the better?

Don’t think so, less staff usually means less gets done. The lack of PDF’s must cut into the bottom line as well, let’s face it the contact sucks.

Edited by Eoen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

IOW, FFG is kicking the RPGs while they're down but trying to maintain the illusion that things will get better.

Since Star Wars, what have they done that is like, game changing good ? For a company as big as FFG, it is not like they were doing that good.

Edited by Avatar111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Since Star Wars, what have they done that is like, game changing good ? For a company as big as FFG, it is not like they were doing that good.

Well they made Genesys. I have no idea how well it did for them financially. But, for me it was a great literally "game changing" thing. It put a generic spin on a system I've been loving since Warhammer FFG. Even if they stop making Genesys, it's probably going to be the ONLY game system I will ever use for any future campaigns in any setting except SW or Warhammer for obvious reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Well they made Genesys. I have no idea how well it did for them financially. But, for me it was a great literally "game changing" thing. It put a generic spin on a system I've been loving since Warhammer FFG. Even if they stop making Genesys, it's probably going to be the ONLY game system I will ever use for any future campaigns in any setting except SW or Warhammer for obvious reasons.

They also have done a new spin on the L5R roll and keep system that is very interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I was relieved when they started winding the three lines down and then started producing a single successor line of books.  It gave me a chance to catch up and complete my collection. As awesome as these books are, keeping up with three lines that were spitting out books isn't cheap. One line that produces ~4 books per year is perfect (for me).

Edited by Vondy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate the concept in general, but changing it would provide a good entry point for a new generation of players.

I mean, one of my favorite parts about this RPG is all of the advice on how to handle different things, like how to deliver certain themes, how to integrate different kinds of characters, and reminders about what things should be known in-universe compared to what's known by the audience, and splitting the line into three distinct themes really brought that out, but I think it would probably be better in the long run if it did focus on a single line. It's not like they still can't squeeze in recommendations for different themes within a book, or still release books that prioritize different themes in a different context (like mentioned in another thread, the Mandalorian, the Cassian Andor series, and the Kenobi series are practically themed for Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny to begin with in theory, so source books based on the tv shows would already lean in different directions).

What I'd really like to see FFG tackle, if they used this time as an excuse to soft reboot things and were able to (able being key), is bringing an RPG into the modern era in all aspects. One thing that bugs me about RPGs nowadays is how frustrating it is to get actual modern convenience out of them (even with certain officially pushed digital services). PDFs are nice, searchable, and shareable (even if the latter often isn't officially endorsed), but there are times you still can't beat physical books. On the other hand, there are also various digital tabletops to really help facilitate long-distance gaming. The problem is, in almost all cases (even, if not especially, the ones that brag about having entered the modern era), you're charged full price all three times.

It might be easy to look at that and go "oh good, the RPG gets a lot more support that way," but the problem is RPG costs are already a huge deterrent for new players and this only makes the barrier to entry even larger. It could already be a big enough hurdle to say "buy the expensive Player's book and let your DM worry about the rest", but now you also have to ask "is my group going to need a physical book? I'm a casual fan who ran into this at Barnes and Noble, but should I look up where to buy it digitally instead? which digital platform should I use? with all these choices nowadays, is this even the RPG I want to invest in?" on top of each of those options being equally as expensive. I know because I've been an RPG fan for most of my life, and this is still a question I ask myself every time. As it is, it's a convergence of coincidences that I've bought so hard into this RPG.

Now, in some of these cases, only the DM needs all of the books, but that "only" can get out of hand really fast. Having a consistent group with a consistent DM is one of the rarest things in RPGs in my experience, so letting your DM worry about it is a peace of mind that isn't easy to have.

I'll admit I don't have a solution. The easy choice of just printing a product key for a PDF version and/or a digital tabletop version in every physical book has the easily exploitable issue of people ripping open the packaging in-stores and just inserting the product key without paying (and then ruining it for the person who actually buys it), but there must be something.

If FFG could find a solution, they wouldn't just be breathing new life into the game, they'd be breathing new life into RPGs for me (and a soft second edition with a simpler product line would be a good time to do it).

(Disclaimer: I don't follow RPG industry news, so there may be a really good system out there that already does what I'd like to see, I just know that a certain big RPG's supposed digital answer was full of these types of holes.)

Edited by Jokubas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jokubas said:

I appreciate the concept in general, but changing it would provide a good entry point for a new generation of players.

I mean, one of my favorite parts about this RPG is all of the advice on how to handle different things, like how to deliver certain themes, how to integrate different kinds of characters, and reminders about what things should be known in-universe compared to what's known by the audience, and splitting the line into three distinct themes really brought that out, but I think it would probably be better in the long run if it did focus on a single line. It's not like they still can't squeeze in recommendations for different themes within a book, or still release books that prioritize different themes in a different context (like mentioned in another thread, the Mandalorian, the Cassian Andor series, and the Kenobi series are practically themed for Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny to begin with in theory, so source books based on the tv shows would already lean in different directions).

What I'd really like to see FFG tackle, if they used this time as an excuse to soft reboot things and were able to (able being key), is bringing an RPG into the modern era in all aspects. One thing that bugs me about RPGs nowadays is how frustrating it is to get actual modern convenience out of them (even with certain officially pushed digital services). PDFs are nice, searchable, and shareable (even if the latter often isn't officially endorsed), but there are times you still can't beat physical books. On the other hand, there are also various digital tabletops to really help facilitate long-distance gaming. The problem is, in almost all cases (even, if not especially, the ones that brag about having entered the modern era), you're charged full price all three times.

It might be easy to look at that and go "oh good, the RPG gets a lot more support that way," but the problem is RPG costs are already a huge deterrent for new players and this only makes the barrier to entry even larger. It could already be a big enough hurdle to say "buy the expensive Player's book and let your DM worry about the rest", but now you also have to ask "is my group going to need a physical book? I'm a casual fan who ran into this at Barnes and Noble, but should I look up where to buy it digitally instead? which digital platform should I use? with all these choices nowadays, is this even the RPG I want to invest in?" on top of each of those options being equally as expensive. I know because I've been an RPG fan for most of my life, and this is still a question I ask myself every time. As it is, it's a convergence of coincidences that I've bought so hard into this RPG.

Now, in some of these cases, only the DM needs all of the books, but that "only" can get out of hand really fast. Having a consistent group with a consistent DM is one of the rarest things in RPGs in my experience, so letting your DM worry about it is a peace of mind that isn't easy to have.

I'll admit I don't have a solution. The easy choice of just printing a product key for a PDF version and/or a digital tabletop version in every physical book has the easily exploitable issue of people ripping open the packaging in-stores and just inserting the product key without paying (and then ruining it for the person who actually buys it), but there must be something.

If FFG could find a solution, they wouldn't just be breathing new life into the game, they'd be breathing new life into RPGs for me (and a soft second edition with a simpler product line would be a good time to do it).

(Disclaimer: I don't follow RPG industry news, so there may be a really good system out there that already does what I'd like to see, I just know that a certain big RPG's supposed digital answer was full of these types of holes.)

Your suggestions would lead to failure. For example the adventure books are the least profitable vooks because they only really sell to GMs. So your model is a good way to result in failure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jokubas said:

I'll admit I don't have a solution. The easy choice of just printing a product key for a PDF version and/or a digital tabletop version in every physical book has the easily exploitable issue of people ripping open the packaging in-stores and just inserting the product key without paying (and then ruining it for the person who actually buys it), but there must be something.

If FFG could find a solution, they wouldn't just be breathing new life into the game, they'd be breathing new life into RPGs for me (and a soft second edition with a simpler product line would be a good time to do it).

The makers of Fate have a program in which some of their PDFs are available for free download, while the ones that aren’t can be obtained free with purchase of the physical book by submitting a picture of the book and receipt.

In the case of Star Wars, though, as most know by now, getting PDFs under any business model requires rewriting the terms of both the tabletop and video game licenses, which is unlikely to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Your suggestions would lead to failure. For example the adventure books are the least profitable vooks because they only really sell to GMs. So your model is a good way to result in failure. 

And The award for 'least constructive comment on the internet today' goes to... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

D&D fifth edition’s output consists almost exclusively of adventure books and it seems to be doing quite well. 

Well yeah. D&D is the 800 pound gorilla. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

D&D fifth edition’s output consists almost exclusively of adventure books and it seems to be doing quite well. 

So too with Coriolis and the Mutant:YZ games from Free League, while not comparable to WotC adventures, nor FFGs, these are more like areas and scenarios that you can explore, use, and hook players for shorter to longer adventures and stories. Very little hand-holding and few rails to stick to, so the outcome is completely open, as well as the various steps. I like this approach. You can even hook them together into short to medium-length campaigns easily.

Conan by Modiphius follows a different approach: themes, with players options, and then places and hooks and areas of high adventure to explore. I like this approach too.

Pre-mades a la FFG Star Wars are too railroady and predetermined tunnels for my taste. Enjoyable, and tweakable and customisable, yet, too closed and narrow to be fully owned and enjoyed as a cooperative storytelling fun-time-game. In my experience. Not that they aren't good stories, and filled with great ideas to use. And, sure, I run the beginner games and some of the others for my players as an introduction or as a side-quest, as long as it is a part of a larger narrative that we've made ourselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

So too with Coriolis and the Mutant:YZ games from Free League, while not comparable to WotC adventures, nor FFGs, these are more like areas and scenarios that you can explore, use, and hook players for shorter to longer adventures and stories. Very little hand-holding and few rails to stick to, so the outcome is completely open, as well as the various steps. I like this approach. You can even hook them together into short to medium-length campaigns easily.

Conan by Modiphius follows a different approach: themes, with players options, and then places and hooks and areas of high adventure to explore. I like this approach too.

Pre-mades a la FFG Star Wars are too railroady and predetermined tunnels for my taste. Enjoyable, and tweakable and customisable, yet, too closed and narrow to be fully owned and enjoyed as a cooperative storytelling fun-time-game. In my experience. Not that they aren't good stories, and filled with great ideas to use. And, sure, I run the beginner games and some of the others for my players as an introduction or as a side-quest, as long as it is a part of a larger narrative that we've made ourselves.

yeah the FFG ones are better for taking apart for encounters than to run the adventure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...