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Is Soontir Fel Undercosted?

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Posted (edited)

I find that the difference between top Aces like Soontir or Anakin is relatively small and they are in a good spot against generics. Not broken at all and is an interesting matchup when the two players play at average level.

As I said before, increasing the top Ace cost, if the points update don't kill the archetype, only changes the battle between the Aces.

If the reason is reduce the upgrades to balance the match against generics (if it's unfair), I think they must touch that cards or the slots, not the base cost of the pilot.

On the other hand, the difference between the generics and the low-mid Initiative Aces (that have the same odds to win against generics ships than top Aces) don't compensate for taking them instead. They have a very bad matchup against a pure Ace list with high Initiatives, and can't fit enough efficient ships with the saved points.

The players choose between more ships or the best pilots. The middle option isn't good.

If we take Turr Phennir as an example, I don't think he would see more table if Soontir was out of the game. He can win against lower Initiative pilots pretty well, but with 3 hull, is garbage against everything with Initiative 5 or 6. I don't think he justifies his 44 points. Actually I don't think he deserve more than 40 invested points.

Edited by S4ul0

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I'd agree, with a slight caveat (and yes, I know the TIE fighter was the original balancing point - though I'd point out that post say.....wave 4 or so in first edition, everything was 'balanced' by being better than it).

 

Swarm ship, heavy fighter, and arc dodger are sufficiently different in play style that it's easy to say if a ship is better or worse than another in its category but hard to compare across categories*, because there's a scissors-paper-stone effect; if you say (for example) that broadly speaking playstyle a works well against playstyle b works well against playstyle c you can't use b as your balance yardstick, you need a 'good' example of each playstyle.

 

 

* In much the same way I accept it's hard to compare across factions, too. Colonel Vessery's ability is bloody awesome in principle but struggles from being in the only faction who's cheap swarm component ships, and quite a popular few aces, don't naturally have the ability to target lock. General Hux is limited by the only crew carrier being the Upsilon rather than Lambda or Sheathipede, and so on.

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7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't think I made either of those statements. I made a separate statement lol. And now wonder why I'm being quoted as saying either of those. 

you didn't, just commenting on your comment on your experience with my own comment on my experience of other people's experience

it's all a machine

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4 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

If we take Turr Phennir as an example, I don't think he would see more table if Soontir was out of the game. He can win against lower Initiative pilots pretty well, but with 3 hull, is garbage against everything with Initiative 5 or 6. I don't think he justifies his 44 points. Actually I don't think he deserve more than 40 invested points.

Phennir is just a bad design, sadly. He'd be much more useful if he got his trick at the start of the Engagement Phase, instead of after shooting.

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43 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Phennir is just a bad design, sadly. He'd be much more useful if he got his trick at the start of the Engagement Phase, instead of after shooting.

It would be broken.

I think the "bad design" would be mitigated if we don't waste a lot of points with a pilot that doesn't do anything better than an Alpha against the majority of squads out there.

You can trade Phennir for two Academy Pilots, that are better and are overcosted too.

He's more expensive than a naked Duchess. That's ridiculous.

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8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Meaningful direct cross faction pilot comparisons are difficult if not impossible.

Spot on. This needs to be point one in any pilot assessments and before lodging counter pilot cost arguments. It's okay to perhaps look at pilots within the same faction (Vonreg vs. Rush, for example, is an intriguing analysis given the I6 endgame focus and the beastly nature of those dials) but FFG has done a fine job of sticking by their guns and encouraging factional relevancy by pricing certain pilots in certain chassis favorably. It is supposed to create an allure for people not playing in that faction to go, "Hey, I'd like to fly THAT pilot!" Good for their business model, and it's a large part of why there's so much diversity in the game now. With three factions originally, falling into cross factional debates was convenient due to lack of options. Now, it's rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock-sponge-water. 

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It took a refill of tea to read all of the fine points located herein, some quite lengthy and well tailored.

Remember, I am admittedly an idiot. However, after letting the debate simmer, I have found it is really has nothing to do with the balancing of Anakin vs. Soontir on any basis of their ships, chassis or dials, I think the real rub that is clearly raising its ugly head and driving the heart of the arguments is this:

Jedi powers.... they are too cheap.

...on to hunting another tea.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Okapi said:

Phennir is just a bad design, sadly. He'd be much more useful if he got his trick at the start of the Engagement Phase, instead of after shooting.

If he wasn't very expensive himself, and the talent wasn't eye-wateringly expensive, Turr Phennir with Snap Shot might be quite interesting.

56 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

He's more expensive than a naked Duchess. That's ridiculous.

Indeed. He's clearly worth more than a saber - because he is the same initiative and has a half-decent pilot ability which doesn't require any specific upgrade to exploit.

But (a) I'm not convinced his pilot ability is worth 4 points more than a saber and (b) I think the saber is overcosted to start with - I4 is nice but not good enough enough to justify it having no upgrades at all in a 40 point 'heavy swarmer' build, compared to (for example) Petranaki Arena Aces or Black Squadron Scouts getting Predator, or RZ-2s getting Heroic & Advanced Optics.

I understand the Alpha Squadron is at a critical price point - 34 - that you have to think very carefully about cost reductions because of the implications of 6 interceptors. But dropping the saber by a few points so that a squad of five could have crack shot, predator or targeting computer/elusive (for a 1, 2 or 3 point drop respectively) seems less unreasonable.

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47 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

If he wasn't very expensive himself, and the talent wasn't eye-wateringly expensive, Turr Phennir with Snap Shot might be quite interesting.

Indeed. He's clearly worth more than a saber - because he is the same initiative and has a half-decent pilot ability which doesn't require any specific upgrade to exploit.

But (a) I'm not convinced his pilot ability is worth 4 points more than a saber and (b) I think the saber is overcosted to start with - I4 is nice but not good enough enough to justify it having no upgrades at all in a 40 point 'heavy swarmer' build, compared to (for example) Petranaki Arena Aces or Black Squadron Scouts getting Predator, or RZ-2s getting Heroic & Advanced Optics.

I understand the Alpha Squadron is at a critical price point - 34 - that you have to think very carefully about cost reductions because of the implications of 6 interceptors. But dropping the saber by a few points so that a squad of five could have crack shot, predator or targeting computer/elusive (for a 1, 2 or 3 point drop respectively) seems less unreasonable.

Yeah, Turr's ability is totally fine. 

Balanced, you might say. If he was I5 or I6 people would hate him.

 

He's just too expensive. I actually think he's only worth one more point than a Saber. Most of the value in an Interceptor comes from Initiative. Turr's ability is Initiative dependent on top of that. You've got to cost his ability purely for an I4, and I think for an I4 it's worth a point. 2 at absolute most. 

 

And you're also right that the Sabers are too expensive. 

Turr should probably come in around 39 points and the Saber at 38. Maybe even 38 and 37 respectively. I'd play Turr at 38 points. If you're against lower I pilots, you send him to flank and hunt them. If you're against aces, then use him as a blocker and hope to get a couple of 3 dice shots in before he dies. You don't care because he's cheap. 

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My take:

Alpha - 33 points, 1 talent, 1 mod

Saber - 38 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

Turr - 40 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

Soontir Fel - 56 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

The generics may need to go down again next cycle but I really wouldn't want to over-buff them for fear of an overreaction. Other potential buffs to throw in:

Ruthless - 0 points

Daredevil - 2 points

Intimidation - 2 points

And you have a few potential options. 6 ruthless Interceptors is a very bad spam nonbo but has interesting implications if you ever happen to shoot at a ship adjacent to one of your own ships that's already died (somehow). Or 35 point intimidation Alphas would make awesome little blocker-fillers. 2 for 70 slots in neatly with a couple of real aces. Snap/Juke Turr Phennir would be super interesting, though 54 points is still quite a lot to pay for such a squishy bug. Five Crack/Ruthless Sabers with a 5-point bid would be really interesting, or 5 predator sabers without. Alternatively, 46 points for an Outmaneuver/Predator saber fits into a list easily, though it's still probably an overinvestment.

I still don't see anything horrifically broken, or even that good here. But at least it gives some interesting options to play around with.

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27 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

There have been a lot of good discussions put forward by a lot of people, but it saddens me that the real issue hasn’t been touched on...

....FFG....Where is Carnor Jax???

FFG just gave him to the First Order. Along with the ability to token stack while stressed.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My take:

Alpha - 33 points, 1 talent, 1 mod

Saber - 38 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

Turr - 40 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

Soontir Fel - 56 points, 2 talents, 1 mod

The generics may need to go down again next cycle but I really wouldn't want to over-buff them for fear of an overreaction. Other potential buffs to throw in:

Ruthless - 0 points

Daredevil - 2 points

Intimidation - 2 points

And you have a few potential options. 6 ruthless Interceptors is a very bad spam nonbo but has interesting implications if you ever happen to shoot at a ship adjacent to one of your own ships that's already died (somehow). Or 35 point intimidation Alphas would make awesome little blocker-fillers. 2 for 70 slots in neatly with a couple of real aces. Snap/Juke Turr Phennir would be super interesting, though 54 points is still quite a lot to pay for such a squishy bug. Five Crack/Ruthless Sabers with a 5-point bid would be really interesting, or 5 predator sabers without. Alternatively, 46 points for an Outmaneuver/Predator saber fits into a list easily, though it's still probably an overinvestment.

I still don't see anything horrifically broken, or even that good here. But at least it gives some interesting options to play around with.

I don't personally think I1 alphas should ever get a talent upgrade. The points values seem reasonable, though. 6 interceptor is an interesting squad, but sorta-kinda equivalents exist (5+wampa, or 6 ion scyks). Equally, that would allow 5 with hull upgrades, pushing you out of easily one-shottable territory.

Ruthless being free....I'd like it, but I'd be hesitant just because I've used it and I've always been impressed with it given it's bad reputation. It is generally ignored, though, and making it free opens up 6-7 points in a MAXIMUM RUTHLESSNESS TIE/ln swarm, which is a fair amount for TIE fighters...

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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22 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

In effect they did. So many generics got cheaper and the break point for several ships was broken. Comparatively Fel went up to about all generics.

Exactly.  Undercosted is always a relative term.  Nearly nothing high-init got significant nerfs (other than omission from Hyperspace).  I'm kind of surprised at that.

However, so much else went way down.

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I actually really dig the solution of getting more low-initiative arcs on the field vs. nerfing the aces.  Keeps the ace experience alive but gives other lists more inertia to leverage against them.

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6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Nearly nothing high-init got significant nerfs

Obi-Wan got a significant nerf. That was the one I was happiest to see.

I really didn't expect such an across-the-table "this is the power level now" kind of approach but... I really can't say that I mind? Larger lists can just be more fun I guess.

Plus my 6 interceptor and my 6 Proton Bomber lists are going to have a lot of fun in the near future...

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9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Obi-Wan got a significant nerf. That was the one I was happiest to see.

I really didn't expect such an across-the-table "this is the power level now" kind of approach but... I really can't say that I mind? Larger lists can just be more fun I guess.

He went up 1 point.  I wouldn't have called less than 3 major (at least on a ship in Obi's price range).

But yeah, I also didn't expect this particular set of changes.  I kind of figured low-end breakpoints would have mostly stayed in place, but something like each point of force costing 1 more, each init over 4 costing one more.

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