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Is Soontir Fel Undercosted?

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Posted (edited)

No Soontir Fel option in poll, 0/10. 
 

Nope, thought about it a minute and Soontir is the ace you’re supposed to slap mods on because the chassis is fragile, which would put him in Poe/Rau range, so now I think he is fine.

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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Posted (edited)

No.

Soontir without upgrades is actually overcosted. The problem is the value returned by the extra Hull and the extra Shield, that are practically an auto-include.

If Soontir cost increase again, more important will be the extra health and he will be unplayable without them.

I hate this type of upgrades that break the chassis and are almost imposible to evaluate for all the pilots.

They convert a fragile Ace into a tough one and that changes how we aproach the match and the priority targets. 

I love the TIE Interceptor, but I don't like to put this upgrades to field them.

Edited by S4ul0

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29 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

No.

Soontir without upgrades is actually overcosted. The problem is the value returned by the extra Hull and the extra Shield, that are practically an auto-include.

If Soontir cost increase again, more important will be the extra health and he will be unplayable without them.

I hate this type of upgrades that break the chassis and are almost imposible to evaluate for all the pilots.

They convert a fragile Ace into a tough one and that changes how we aproach the match and the priority targets. 

I love the TIE Interceptor, but I don't like to put this upgrades to field them.

Really? The 53 point naked Soontir is overcosted, but the 68 point 3/3/4/1 Soontir is undercosted? I'm honestly a little shocked, never seen anyone argue that before, and probably only ever see him with anything more than Predator once ever leap year. For that price you could get Juke/Passive Sensors Whisper, or Predator/Fifth Brother/Shield Upgrade Duchess with points to spare. Or, I guess, swap factions and play Fenn Rau or Poe Dameron.

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24 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Really? The 53 point naked Soontir is overcosted, but the 68 point 3/3/4/1 Soontir is undercosted?

Yes, because then you get into point fortress territory. Soontir with a few small upgrades has an uphill battle in points against almost every other endgame ship. The pocket ace Soontir that you run as part of a 4-5 ship list is a vastly different beast from the 70 point ship. I've totally given up on 3hp Soontir. He's a terrible competitive ship because he's super vulnerable to any sort of anti-ace tech, and he is just super inconsistent and cannot be relied upon in a large tournament.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Really? The 53 point naked Soontir is overcosted, but the 68 point 3/3/4/1 Soontir is undercosted? I'm honestly a little shocked, never seen anyone argue that before, and probably only ever see him with anything more than Predator once ever leap year. For that price you could get Juke/Passive Sensors Whisper, or Predator/Fifth Brother/Shield Upgrade Duchess with points to spare. Or, I guess, swap factions and play Fenn Rau or Poe Dameron.

Whisper and Duchess aren't Initiative 6 but I consider them a very good options for that point range and I think they are undercosted too.

A naked Soontir not compete with them (and isn't so strong) like upgraded Soontir does.

The big difference between the two Soontir options is the margin of error that you have with the 3 health version. Is nothing. And without that margin almost anybody could argue that Soontir is broken or undercosted like we saw everywhere in the last year.

I don't see a lot of cry against Poe or Fenn Rau... Maybe they aren't problems for their price.

Edited by S4ul0

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Wow, I don't think I've ever thought the consensus was more wrong.

Soontir is undercosted. By enough that most things in his points bracket look like a joke by comparison. He should probably start with a "6".

And would not see much if any play anymore starting with a 6.

Soontir's base cost is fine as is. Very good pilot, but very fragile.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, svelok said:

By enough that most things in his points bracket look like a joke by comparison.

That's more because a lot of mid-priced ships are bad right now than that Soontir is good. When was the last time Soontir actually placed anywhere after he got increased? He's actually a terrible ship for long tournaments because in the end he's a glorified TIE fighter. He has a lot of constraints on how he has to fly too with a lot of decision trees, way more than any other ace.

 

Edited by DarkArk

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36 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

That's more because a lot of mid-priced ships are bad right now than that Soontir is good. When was the last time Soontir actually placed anywhere after he got increased? He's actually a terrible ship for long tournaments because in the end he's a glorified TIE fighter. He has a lot of constraints on how he has to fly too with a lot of decision trees, way more than any other ace.

 

Duncan Howard as finalist in the Pax Unplugged System Open like 2 weeks ago.

Not even close to the same level, but I got top 8 at the St. Louis Grand Champs with Soontir and I'm not even a serious Soontir player.  

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Soontir is undercosted for sure.  Mobility is more valuable on 3 attack ships.  Mobility is more valuable on high initiative ships.  Passive mods are more valuable on 3 attack and 3 defense.  You don't usually put shield upgrade on soontir because his whole thing right now is being so cheap that you can fit other ridiculous aces with him, though Duncan made top 16 at worlds doing so.

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31 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

That's more because a lot of mid-priced ships are bad right now than that Soontir is good

If every other ship that costs as much as Soontir does is overpriced, the problem is not every other ship.

31 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

When was the last time Soontir actually placed anywhere

I know December seems like forever ago, but literally the two most recent major tournaments, PAX SoS (99 players) and Crossroads Classic (60), had 3 Soontirs in the top 8 and 2 in the top 16 respectively.

I feel like I'm talking to people from another dimension. Soontir is the 4th most popular pilot in the game and nevertheless has one of the 10 highest cutrates filtering for noise. He's been an unending staple of Imperial listbuilding for the entirety of second edition. You'd be hardpressed to identify any point in 2.0 where Soontir was in less than one in three Empire lists, and for most of it its probably closer to half, and for all of that the lists he's been in have consistently been the lists on top of not just the faction but also the game.

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Posted (edited)

Soontir being cheap is not the same as being under costed. He can be one shotted by a 2 die primary at rng 1. However unlikely this is, it’s something they still have to balance. Is he good in the hands of a good player? Of course he is. In the hands of a mediocre player he is easily killed. It is unsurprising he is in top 8 lists, because as mentioned earlier... they are good players. 

Edited by Archangelspiv

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21 minutes ago, svelok said:

If every other ship that costs as much as Soontir does is overpriced, the problem is not every other ship.

I know December seems like forever ago, but literally the two most recent major tournaments, PAX SoS (99 players) and Crossroads Classic (60), had 3 Soontirs in the top 8 and 2 in the top 16 respectively.

I feel like I'm talking to people from another dimension. Soontir is the 4th most popular pilot in the game and nevertheless has one of the 10 highest cutrates filtering for noise. He's been an unending staple of Imperial listbuilding for the entirety of second edition. You'd be hardpressed to identify any point in 2.0 where Soontir was in less than one in three Empire lists, and for most of it its probably closer to half, and for all of that the lists he's been in have consistently been the lists on top of not just the faction but also the game.

Just because he’s popular and useful doesn’t mean he’s under costed.  That’s where we want pilots.

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

Wow, I don't think I've ever thought the consensus was more wrong.

Soontir is undercosted. By enough that most things in his points bracket look like a joke by comparison. He should probably start with a "6".

 

^

The pilot is provably undercosted and routinely overperforms.  He's an I6 double repo ace with a really good dial that can still get mods while double repoing and bumping.  The idea that he is less than Wedge "I'm just an X-Wing with high initiative" Antilles is pretty ridiculous.

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2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

^

The pilot is provably undercosted and routinely overperforms.  He's an I6 double repo ace with a really good dial that can still get mods while double repoing and bumping.  The idea that he is less than Wedge "I'm just an X-Wing with high initiative" Antilles is pretty ridiculous.

The Imperial player has to fly a lot better than the Rebels player in this example. You compare 1v1, in a tournament, pray tell when is it ever 1v1 from round 1? 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

The Imperial player has to fly a lot better than the Rebels player in this example. You compare 1v1, in a tournament, pray tell when is it ever 1v1 from round 1? 

 

No, the Imperial player needs practice, they don't have to fly better.  The reason they don't have to fly better is because they have an I6 ace with a great dial, double repo and that's bafflingly cheap enough to still afford a bid.   You can afford to fly significantly worse than the other player and still have the double repo as a safety blanket (and even if you get blocked, you probably still get a focus and can lean on triple greens to bail you out wheres Wedge is almost universally dead in such a position).  Wedge is just an X-Wing, he takes one action and frequently just gets caught and dies unless you spend serious effort to try and make that not happen.

Edited by MasterShake2

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