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KungFuFerret

Please Stop Calling them Grey Jedi.

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I know I'm tilting at windmills here, as it's become such a commonly used term that my hopes are doomed to failure, but I will try anyway!   But hey, as EVERY...SINGLE...STAR WARS thing tells us, Hope is everything!  It will save the day with it's ability to.....hope at stuff!  Because hope is just that powerful, and it has NOTHING at all to do with fanservice name dropping to New Hope in an effort to appease the fanbase!!  So here's hoping it will work!

Seriously, don't call people who want to play with Dark side powers and actions but not be a bad guy Grey Jedi.   They are not "grey" Jedi.   This is someone wanting to gain the positive benefits of the term Jedi, in common usage and understanding, (someone who is powerful, but also a force for good in the universe), but also without having to actually adhere to their philosophies and doctrine of behavior.     The Jedi Code is very clear on what someone has to do to be a Jedi, and doing things that contradict that, mean you are NOT a Jedi.   Also, someone who is basically a Sith, but tries to not say they are a murderhobo, because of some token mention of the Jedi codes, and occasionally not killing and enslaving the people around them, equally doesn't make them a "Grey Jedi" from the other direction.  They are simply a less homicidal psychopath, than the other homicidal psychopaths they are around.  

It's like trying to say you are a carnivorous vegan.  Or a murderous pacifist.   They are terms that are by definition, contrary and mutually exclusive.   

 

That is all, proceed to ignore me and continue calling them that anyway!  Because I know you all will!   *tilts at a windmill one last time*

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15 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I know I'm tilting at windmills here, as it's become such a commonly used term that my hopes are doomed to failure, but I will try anyway!   But hey, as EVERY...SINGLE...STAR WARS thing tells us, Hope is everything!  It will save the day with it's ability to.....hope at stuff!  Because hope is just that powerful, and it has NOTHING at all to do with fanservice name dropping to New Hope in an effort to appease the fanbase!!  So here's hoping it will work!

Seriously, don't call people who want to play with Dark side powers and actions but not be a bad guy Grey Jedi.   They are not "grey" Jedi.   This is someone wanting to gain the positive benefits of the term Jedi, in common usage and understanding, (someone who is powerful, but also a force for good in the universe), but also without having to actually adhere to their philosophies and doctrine of behavior.     The Jedi Code is very clear on what someone has to do to be a Jedi, and doing things that contradict that, mean you are NOT a Jedi.   Also, someone who is basically a Sith, but tries to not say they are a murderhobo, because of some token mention of the Jedi codes, and occasionally not killing and enslaving the people around them, equally doesn't make them a "Grey Jedi" from the other direction.  They are simply a less homicidal psychopath, than the other homicidal psychopaths they are around.  

It's like trying to say you are a carnivorous vegan.  Or a murderous pacifist.   They are terms that are by definition, contrary and mutually exclusive.   

 

That is all, proceed to ignore me and continue calling them that anyway!  Because I know you all will!   *tilts at a windmill one last time*

YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER.

(Slays an orphanage to find clarity)

Now I am balanced. XD JKing you have said what I've thought for a pretty long time.

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1 hour ago, Varlie said:

I agree. You can be a Grey Force-user not following the Jedi or the Sith code but like Ahsoka when she left the order she quit claiming to be a Jedi. 

I wouldn't call Ahsoka grey. She may not be a Jedi, but she'd more devoted to the light side of the Force than most of the Clone Wars era Jedi order she knew. Now the Bendu, he's as grey as a character can be, embracing and rejecting the light and dark equally.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Varlie said:

I agree. You can be a Grey Force-user not following the Jedi or the Sith code but like Ahsoka when she left the order she quit claiming to be a Jedi. 

I'm comfortable referring to Ahsoka as an informal Jedi or a lost Jedi. Yes, she refused the honor of returning to the order as a knight and went her own way, but she still lived according to her teachings and the code and was concerned with what she termed "Jedi business." She was a better Jedi than many who formally held the title.

Edited by Vondy

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56 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

I wouldn't call Ahsoka grey. She may not be a Jedi, but she'd more devoted to the light side of the Force than most of the Clone Wars era Jedi order she knew. Now the Bendu, he's as grey as a character can be, embracing and rejecting the light and dark equally.

True.  She abandoned the Jedi hypocrisy more than their creed and beliefs. You see that in Rebels

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Garran said:

I think you could pull that one off if you were sufficiently passive-aggressive...

 

I want to hear more about leth passive aggressiveness.

Edited by Daeglan

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18 hours ago, Varlie said:

I agree. You can be a Grey Force-user not following the Jedi or the Sith code but like Ahsoka when she left the order she quit claiming to be a Jedi. 

This. Most of the time I find "Grey Jedi" boils down to - as the OP says - "I want to use the Dark Side power options but don't want to pay the moral price for it", especially when a certain kind of RPG PC uses the phrase....

17 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

I wouldn't call Ahsoka grey. She may not be a Jedi, but she'd more devoted to the light side of the Force than most of the Clone Wars era Jedi order she knew. Now the Bendu, he's as grey as a character can be, embracing and rejecting the light and dark equally.

I'd agree on that front. She's emphatic - herself - that she's not a jedi. That doesn't mean she's not trying to do the right thing.

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 10:36 PM, KungFuFerret said:

 Also, someone who is basically a Sith, but tries to not say they are a murderhobo, because of some token mention of the Jedi codes, and occasionally not killing and enslaving the people around them, equally doesn't make them a "Grey Jedi" from the other direction.  They are simply a less homicidal psychopath, than the other homicidal psychopaths they are around.

Indeed. A character who does give in to the dark side to try and achieve what they see as necessary is definitely not a jedi. They may be a...I'm not going to  say "good" character, but let's say they can be on the side of the good guys without being one. I always think of the Operative's speech in Serenity: " I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done" - knowing that's the case, accepting that, and - if you really mean it - putting in place some contingency planning to keep an eye on you make sure you get put down like a rabid dog before you start doing more harm than good are the marks of someone using the dark side 'well'.

That latter point is most definitely not the behaviour of a sith, either, since their driving philosophy is not to accept limits on their actions.

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52 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Grey Jedi are not Jedi. Just like Dark Jedi are not Jedi. What's the difference? Why get bent out of shape over Grey Jedi, but not Dark Jedi?

The point of the modifier is that they aren't Jedi.

Dark Jedi is wrong as well. Really it should be dark force user and grey force user. Though I dont think grey force user is as much a thing as dark force user. I see grey force user as really just someone mid fall to the darkside. 

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49 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Grey Jedi are not Jedi. Just like Dark Jedi are not Jedi. What's the difference? Why get bent out of shape over Grey Jedi, but not Dark Jedi?

The point of the modifier is that they aren't Jedi.

Because I can't recall the last time I heard anyone call someone a Dark Jedi, but I've lost count of how often Grey Jedi comes up in common parlance.  So that's why I mention it.   And I'm not bent out of shape over it, it's just something that I find annoying.   Like how people use the word decimate to mean something was almost entirely destroyed, when decimate literally means "to reduce by 10 percent"...which is not the same thing as "almost destroying something.  At some point, someone confused Decimate, with Devastate ( i suspect, it's the closest sounding word to actually mean what people think decimate means), and now everyone just uses it, even though it's entirely wrong.   

Grey Jedi is the same.  It's a term constantly tossed up as a defense for a poor character concept, because somebody wants to be a "good guy Jedi" but still be able to pull a Wayne Brady and a Choke a Bi***.   They wan't their Dark Side Cookies and eat them too.   

As I thought was apparently clear from the tone of my original post, it's mostly made in jest, as a minor pet peeve of mine.

And if they aren't Jedi, they shouldn't use the word in their title.  I am not a Catholic, so you know what I don't call myself, a Grey Catholic, or Dark Catholic, to denote that I am NOT a Catholic.  People conflate "Someone who uses the Force" with Jedi all the time.  And it's simply wrong.  To reuse an analogy I enjoy, mostly because it amuses me, especially since Fallen Order.   Let's say that people who can use the Force, are gingers (people with red hair).  Now, people who are Jedi, are gymnasts (actually had training in a discipline).   That doesn't mean that all gingers are gymnasts.   And gingers who didn't study gymnastics, but instead studied parkour, are not Dark Gymnasts.  They are parkourists, or free runners.  They have their own word to describe them.   

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27 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Because I can't recall the last time I heard anyone call someone a Dark Jedi, but I've lost count of how often Grey Jedi comes up in common parlance.  So that's why I mention it.   And I'm not bent out of shape over it, it's just something that I find annoying.   Like how people use the word decimate to mean something was almost entirely destroyed, when decimate literally means "to reduce by 10 percent"...which is not the same thing as "almost destroying something.  At some point, someone confused Decimate, with Devastate ( i suspect, it's the closest sounding word to actually mean what people think decimate means), and now everyone just uses it, even though it's entirely wrong.   

Grey Jedi is the same.  It's a term constantly tossed up as a defense for a poor character concept, because somebody wants to be a "good guy Jedi" but still be able to pull a Wayne Brady and a Choke a Bi***.   They wan't their Dark Side Cookies and eat them too.   

As I thought was apparently clear from the tone of my original post, it's mostly made in jest, as a minor pet peeve of mine.

And if they aren't Jedi, they shouldn't use the word in their title.  I am not a Catholic, so you know what I don't call myself, a Grey Catholic, or Dark Catholic, to denote that I am NOT a Catholic.  People conflate "Someone who uses the Force" with Jedi all the time.  And it's simply wrong.  To reuse an analogy I enjoy, mostly because it amuses me, especially since Fallen Order.   Let's say that people who can use the Force, are gingers (people with red hair).  Now, people who are Jedi, are gymnasts (actually had training in a discipline).   That doesn't mean that all gingers are gymnasts.   And gingers who didn't study gymnastics, but instead studied parkour, are not Dark Gymnasts.  They are parkourists, or free runners.  They have their own word to describe them.   

I think it is a remnant from when we thought Jedi meant force user because we didnt know there were things like Sith or Bendu

 

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1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I think it is a remnant from when we thought Jedi meant force user because we didnt know there were things like Sith or Bendu

 

It probably is, as I can't recall any in-universe examples of Force users that weren't Jedi or Sith based on the stories being told.  But since they've made a point to differentiate Sith/Jedi and "being in touch with the Force", then I think the terms should reflect that.

Again, tilting at windmills, i don't really expect to spark a fire of semantic rebellion in the SW fanbase, I was mostly just giggling to myself about the "carnivorous vegan" as comparison for a Grey Jedi, was bored, and felt like sharing.  :P 

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2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

It probably is, as I can't recall any in-universe examples of Force users that weren't Jedi or Sith based on the stories being told.  But since they've made a point to differentiate Sith/Jedi and "being in touch with the Force", then I think the terms should reflect that.

Again, tilting at windmills, i don't really expect to spark a fire of semantic rebellion in the SW fanbase, I was mostly just giggling to myself about the "carnivorous vegan" as comparison for a Grey Jedi, was bored, and felt like sharing.  :P 

it would be nice if people did it. 

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Pretty sure the Jedi themselves use the term Grey Jedi.  Some considered Qui Gon to be a Grey Jedi.  Ashoka definitely was a Grey Jedi.

The problem is the term has several meanings.  In the above examples it's simply a Jedi that distance themselves from the Jedi council.  Another definition is that of someone that distances themselves from the teachings of the Jedi.  But one would need to be exposed to them in the first place.

The most common use of Grey Jedi that I see though is what likely sparked the OP...I want to be a good guy that chokes people and shoots lightning.  Sadly, this exists because there has never been a suitable, and interesting enough label for force users that skirt the line between good and evil.

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21 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Pretty sure the Jedi themselves use the term Grey Jedi.  Some considered Qui Gon to be a Grey Jedi.  Ashoka definitely was a Grey Jedi.

If Jedi did use the term, it wasn't used in Canon. The phrase is strictly Legends.

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1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Pretty sure the Jedi themselves use the term Grey Jedi.  Some considered Qui Gon to be a Grey Jedi.  Ashoka definitely was a Grey Jedi.

The problem is the term has several meanings.  In the above examples it's simply a Jedi that distance themselves from the Jedi council.  Another definition is that of someone that distances themselves from the teachings of the Jedi.  But one would need to be exposed to them in the first place.

The most common use of Grey Jedi that I see though is what likely sparked the OP...I want to be a good guy that chokes people and shoots lightning.  Sadly, this exists because there has never been a suitable, and interesting enough label for force users that skirt the line between good and evil.

They have refered to fallen jedi but I dont remember ever seeing the term dark jedi in any place but maybe in the early WEG  books. 

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5 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Like how people use the word decimate to mean something was almost entirely destroyed, when decimate literally means "to reduce by 10 percent"...which is not the same thing as "almost destroying something.  At some point, someone confused Decimate, with Devastate ( i suspect, it's the closest sounding word to actually mean what people think decimate means), and now everyone just uses it, even though it's entirely wrong. 

😁

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Just now, Nytwyng said:

😁

Yes, that, and I am aware that I used literally in my line that you quoted, and I possibly used it incorrectly myself. (And I suspect it's why you posted this clip :P  I try to avoid using that one incorrectly when I can, but I am human and prone to failure. :P    

But yeah it's the same thing, and like I said, I don't really expect people to stop calling them that, because human language is a mess thing, and humans do what they want with it, and the rules and definitions be darned.   Still bugs me though :P  

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They have refered to fallen jedi but I dont remember ever seeing the term dark jedi in any place but maybe in the early WEG  books. 

There is one canon novel from 2019 that uses the term "dark Jedi": Master & Apprentice. However, the term was first coined by the inimitable Timothy Zahn in the his novel Heir to the Empire in 1991. It has has been widely used in numerous "Legends" comics, novels, and video games over the past three decades. A list of sources for confirmation can be found at....

Canon: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

Legends: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi/Legends

 

 

Edited by Vondy

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