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Whalers on the moon

Help me get past this head-canon nonsense theory

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So I've had this theory in my head for a while and Episode IX and Fallen Order did nothing but strengthen it.  Hoping someone here can point me back in the right direction and assert that the Jedi were actually good guys.

We saw both Rey and Luke learn to use Force powers fairly quickly (and both in confusing timeframes).  It is possible then that the Force did not take long and careful mentoring to master.  The Jedi Council's actual reason for existing was to coral and control all force users from a young age possibly even limiting the potential of all or most in hopes of keeping them from straying to the dark side.  Their mission of galactic peacekeeping was only because they needed something to do with these powers rather then just locking them in the Temple.  

As I said, I like believing that the Jedi leadership (Yoda and Windu especially) were not stealing children to control them the same way the First Order was, but I need some hard evidence.  Prove me wrong!

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25 minutes ago, Whalers on the moon said:

As I said, I like believing that the Jedi leadership (Yoda and Windu especially) were not stealing children to control them the same way the First Order was, but I need some hard evidence.  Prove me wrong!

The Empire had the Inquisitorious to hunt down force sensitive children. 

The Jedi Order did keep tabs on every force sensitive younglings that they found, similar to your suspicion, due to the danger of them falling to the Dark Side, but as far as I know, they did not forcibly take children away from their parents. Qui-Gon simply offers to take and train Anakin, which his mother chooses to go along with. The rest of the Jedi wanted to send him back for being too old at that point. 

I don't know of any evidence stealing of children by the Jedi Order.

Edited by kris40k

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2 hours ago, kris40k said:

The Empire had the Inquisitorious to hunt down force sensitive children. 

The Jedi Order did keep tabs on every force sensitive younglings that they found, similar to your suspicion, due to the danger of them falling to the Dark Side, but as far as I know, they did not forcibly take children away from their parents. Qui-Gon simply offers to take and train Anakin, which his mother chooses to go along with. The rest of the Jedi wanted to send him back for being too old at that point. 

I don't know of any evidence stealing of children by the Jedi Order.

In Legends the Jedi Order did. Not sure about in Canon.

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1 hour ago, Whalers on the moon said:

So I've had this theory in my head for a while and Episode IX and Fallen Order did nothing but strengthen it.  Hoping someone here can point me back in the right direction and assert that the Jedi were actually good guys.

We saw both Rey and Luke learn to use Force powers fairly quickly (and both in confusing timeframes).  It is possible then that the Force did not take long and careful mentoring to master.  The Jedi Council's actual reason for existing was to coral and control all force users from a young age possibly even limiting the potential of all or most in hopes of keeping them from straying to the dark side.  Their mission of galactic peacekeeping was only because they needed something to do with these powers rather then just locking them in the Temple.  

As I said, I like believing that the Jedi leadership (Yoda and Windu especially) were not stealing children to control them the same way the First Order was, but I need some hard evidence.  Prove me wrong!

First a caveat: I have not played Fallen Order nor bothered watching Episode IX.

I'd agree that part of the point of the Jedi order was to protect everyone from force users. I think first off (in a strictly from the movies and animated shows) the Jedi Order is a bit like Professor X and the X-men. You have people with powers and those people with powers being different will be subject to attack. Being attacked they will defend themselves. So you gather them all up. I think you have a good point that you have to do something with them so send them out to keep the peace. 

The Jedi were not stealing children. They did not have to. Jedi are real. People know about them.  A child is special. Call the Jedi for everyone's protection and benefit. Think about how difficult disciplining children without super-powers is. If you have force-using children you're going to seek out the Jedi. The Jedi are performing a public good all the way around. Might for right. This is the galaxy at the beginning of Episode 1. 

Palpatine with the Inquisitorius is tapping some of that and also looking for possible replacements for Vader. The First Order is probably trying to "steal" force-sensitive children to create a new "Jedi" order to help them maintain their new order. Snoke/Kylo's own inquisitors. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

As to how quickly children learn force powers you come to the need for the midichlorians. When you just have six force users and three films it doesn't matter too much why everyone can't use the force and some are more powerful than others. But when like in Last Jedi you want to talk about "raw power" and billions and billions of beings but only 10,000 Jedi you need to elaborate a bit more. 

More midichlorians more power. More power more ease in using The Force. Think in Attack of The Clones. We see Anakin juggling things with The Force when he's anxious and using The Force willy-nilly to impress the girl by levitating her food.

(Straying to my own theories here) we knew Anakin was already angry but might his teenage resentment of Obi-wan in Episode II be influenced from the ease with which he can do things with The Force? Why would Obi-wan be grumpy with Anakin for goofing off with The Force? Because Obi-wan can't use it with that ease? Some from because you don't achieve enlightenment to save a nickle on the ferry. What might Obi-wan be holding Anakin back from? Perhaps going places with The Force none in the Temple understand because of all his midichlorians. 

I have long maintained that another movie was needed between Episodes I and II (or another 45 minutes at the start of II) where we see a lot more of Anakin growing up. I think he was the kid who could just do everything first try in Force Lessons. Why did he already rival Yoda as a swordsman? Not just his own mind but all those midichlorians. And all those midichlorians and all that ease made him undisciplined but he could get away with it because of his talent. (Even talent has to practice though as we see when he meets Dooku.)

We see barely restrained murderous intent in Clone Wars animated as Anakin's response to most or all problems. I theorize that partially stems from his ability to brute force everything. He was given Ahsoka partially to help discipline himself. 

Midichlorians also could support a passing The Force down through bloodlines. 

Where I think TFA fails with Rey if they wanted to make her a savant with The Force is showing that she is using The Force earlier in the film without perhaps understanding or even noticing she is doing so. Things like the kid with the broom in Last Jedi. She wants her staff and calls it without thinking or noticing having done so. But JJ is not a subtle film-maker.

With how I hear Episode IX ends or its big "twist" we again come to a midichlorians passed along bloodlines and Rey getting lots of raw power so she doesn't have to work as much (if you need more "head canon" than they were lazy writers.)

Luke did not learn to use The Force quickly. There is a lot of time between IV and V and V and VI. And he got genuine teaching from Yoda. 

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38 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Where I think TFA fails with Rey if they wanted to make her a savant with The Force is showing that she is using The Force earlier in the film without perhaps understanding or even noticing she is doing so.

This is something I actually pointed out to someone when debating the "reveal" in TFA that Rey was the Force user among the new gang. They had been showing her using the Force from the beginning. A couple examples:

  • When she is piloting the Falcon through the wreckage of the Star Destroyer, and they escape, afterwards, Finn and Rey meet and celebrate. If you listen to them screaming at each other, he says. "How did you do that?!" and she shouts back, "I don't know!!" Like many Force sensitive pilots, she was using it to augment her flying naturally.
  • Later, when in Han's freighter, she "accidentally" releases the creatures causing the distraction needed, and then when saving Finn's life, she instinctively hits the correct switch at the precise moment to sever the tentacle without killing him. When he asks her how she did that, she replies, "Just lucky, I guess."

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

- Obi-Wan Kenobi

"Our meeting was not a coincidence; nothing happens by accident."

- Qui-Gon Jinn

 

Edited by kris40k

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Posted (edited)
On 12/31/2019 at 5:50 PM, Frimmel said:

I have long maintained that another movie was needed between Episodes I and II (or another 45 minutes at the start of II) where we see a lot more of Anakin growing up. I think he was the kid who could just do everything first try in Force Lessons. Why did he already rival Yoda as a swordsman? Not just his own mind but all those midichlorians. And all those midichlorians and all that ease made him undisciplined but he could get away with it because of his talent. (Even talent has to practice though as we see when he meets Dooku.)

Although it's a minor point, it was only Anakin himself who said that he rivalled Yoda as a swordsman. If I recall correctly, it went something like:

"If you paid as much attention to your lessons as you do to your wit, you might rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

"I thought I already did!"

"Only in your dreams my young apprentice."

(It's been a while since I watched Episode 2, that's probably not word-perfect).

As we see later, Anakin loses hard to Dooku, who in turn loses the swordfight to Yoda and has to fight dirty to escape. So Anakin may be a prodigy who learns easily, but his skills are far below Yoda's.

Edited by Dasharr

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I like to think that the Jedi order we know from the prequels was not at all about "developing" force powers. The force is not something you can gain power levels in. It isn't measurable and hard to quantify. The way I see it, the way of the light side is controlling the urge to use the power you are given, while the dark side just lets you run wild with it. Where the light side tells you to contain yourself, the dark side will try to coerce you. It will make you use your power to get what you want quickly and easily. Just because you can. The real struggle is not giving in to the little voice telling you to "just do it".

That is why I don't agree with all the criticisms of the ST that are based on Rey being a Mary Sue. I have never disliked that concept of "raw, untamed power". I have other bones to pick with the sequels, especially TLJ.

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 5:50 PM, Frimmel said:

I have long maintained that another movie was needed between Episodes I and II (or another 45 minutes at the start of II) where we see a lot more of Anakin growing up.

I guess in part that jump from kid to teenager (at least for a 'normal' jedi) was supposed to be shown by watching Ahsoka follow that same path.

To what extent it was different for Anakin (who was stronger in the force and who had a - self-assigned - master from day one) is hard to judge, though.

 

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4 hours ago, debiler said:

I like to think that the Jedi order we know from the prequels was not at all about "developing" force powers. The force is not something you can gain power levels in. It isn't measurable and hard to quantify. The way I see it, the way of the light side is controlling the urge to use the power you are given, while the dark side just lets you run wild with it. Where the light side tells you to contain yourself, the dark side will try to coerce you. It will make you use your power to get what you want quickly and easily. Just because you can. The real struggle is not giving in to the little voice telling you to "just do it".

That is why I don't agree with all the criticisms of the ST that are based on Rey being a Mary Sue. I have never disliked that concept of "raw, untamed power". I have other bones to pick with the sequels, especially TLJ.

But isn't that the discipline I was mentioning? You use The Force at whatever your raw untamed power level is and you have to chose the path between Light and Dark. With the Jedi Knights there is the not subtle parallel to the Knights of the Round Table: Might for Right. While tyranny could be though of as might makes right. 

As a guardian of peace and justice they are Might for Right. While the Dark Side with The Emperor is the other side of the coin in being mighty he decides what is right. 

That's the lesson that Anakin didn't learn in Episode III. He couldn't do what was right and let go of the things he feared to lose. He then chased ever more might so he might make his version of right.

If you look at the Sith Code from some EU book:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Compared to the Jedi:

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

There is no chaos, there is harmony.

There is no death, there is the Force.

Comparing these we see where Yoda gets "Fear Leads to Anger." Fear of death, fear of loss, fear of slavery. The Dark Side gives in to this fear and chooses their version of right over a higher or outside version of right. The Dark gives into anger/passion, the passion gives them might, and with that might they make their version of right. "You have failed me for the last time." 

The point of the Jedi Temple is to teach the difference. That's one of the arguments against guns isn't it? Here is this power without discipline, without wisdom, without appreciation for what it is you wield. The thing with martial arts being by the time you learn to kill with your bare hands you learn the wisdom not to. The Force is handing a gun to a child who doesn't yet know right from wrong.

I have some things to say about Rey as a Mary Sue. I think Mary Sue doesn't really do justice to the way she fails as a character and how her as a main character combined with not embracing any sort of framework for The Force made a mess of these sequel movies. But I'll leave that aside. 

The Temple teaches you not to give into fear and become a tyrant. 

 

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5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I guess in part that jump from kid to teenager (at least for a 'normal' jedi) was supposed to be shown by watching Ahsoka follow that same path.

To what extent it was different for Anakin (who was stronger in the force and who had a - self-assigned - master from day one) is hard to judge, though.

 

I thought Ahsoka was to ultimately be a loss piled onto Anakin that makes him more vulnerable to the idea of losing Padme. What happens to Ahsoka ultimately being something else Anakin can not let go of.

Perhaps Anakin (and the audience) is meant to see some of himself in Ahsoka. That does fit with my idea that there are lessons Anakin needed to try and teach so that he might learn them himself. 

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