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1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

Right, but that's not a 'signature' talent.

Crap, now I'm starting to sound like Tramp. 

"Synergy" doesn't need to be about signature talents.  Besides Niman-disciple is good spec to round/balance out a character 

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Just now, EliasWindrider said:

"Synergy" doesn't need to be about signature talents.  Besides Niman-disciple is good spec to round/balance out a character 

Of course, I'm not arguing that. 

It was said that all the lightsaber forms have a signature talent that uses force rating, and I pointed out Juyo doesn't. Just semantics. 

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5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Of course, I'm not arguing that. 

It was said that all the lightsaber forms have a signature talent that uses force rating, and I pointed out Juyo doesn't. Just semantics. 

Ah yes, statements that are generally true need not be universally true.  Carry on but please don't descend to Tramp's level of insanity 

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22 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The wookieepedia page specifically says no weaknesses and superior balance, choosing to discard the parts of the lore that contradict your view just makes you look willfully ignorant.

The typical niman practitioner was a very mediocre saberist but that was due to the practitioner investing very little effort in learning combat skills not to the form being intrinsically weak.  The explicit point of the form was to have no weaknesses to exploit. Most lightsaber slacking jedi chose niman because it gave the most benefit for the least effort, and didn't advance beyond the basics they needed.  But mastering niman (modern niman) required 10 years (for Anakin who was exceptionally talented but chose not to) of devotion to the form.  There was a lot to learn for those that wanted to master the form but very few did.  Not all lightsaber slacking jedi chose niman, evidenced by only 30 out of 214 jedi surving the genosis area battle.   30/214 not slacking is a pretty high bar definition of not slacking.

If not "better than average across the board" what do you propose for the meaning of "superior balance" and "no weaknesses"?

Regardless of your personal feelings, the game developers who designed the lightsaber form specializations obviously subscribed to niman == superior balance/no weaknesses.  This is clearly evidenced in the design of the lightsaber form specializations.

 Path of the Jedi supports my view. That is a primary source, Wookieepedia is not. The Primary sources say that Niman is not as good as any other lightsaber skill at anything. It is a mediocre "grab bag" form taking bits and pieces of the other five forms, intended to be easy to learn for those Jedi who specialize primarily in diplomacy or use of the Force over use of the lightsaber. The's a "Jack of all trades, Master of none" form that provides a basic proficiency in different elements from the other forms, but doesn't make the user really any good at anything. In other words, its "just OK". That's it. As such, it has a lot of weaknesses. 

20 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:


You are conflating combat and blade use. Power in the Force helps with combat.  The two aren’t mutually exclusive, but maybe you didn’t intend to imply that (or I’m reading into it incorrectly). 


Again, you’re drawing some sort of odd distinction of Niman sullying itself by using the Force. That’s not how combat training or fighting systems work in the real world or in the Star Wars setting. Tools are tools, effective is effective. If telekinesis makes you better than otherwise in a fight then it makes you better regardless if it’s “blade work”. Ataru also uses the Force for “telekinetic” advantage to leap and for maneuvering. That’s not blade work.  

You’re also dodging the main point that the real core issue with the high loss of life in Geonosis wasn’t Niman but the lack of focus on combat training in general regardless of the particular form emphasis. As you agree apparently Niman has synergy with other aspects of Jedi training so you get more general combat effectiveness for less time spent  training.

Above all your stance on this is completely belied by the fact that mechanically Niman is an excellent choice for being good at lightsaber combat. It isn’t better than some others in their particular specialty but it is also the most balanced. Doesn’t best Ataru in offense, ok but it does most if not all others. Isn’t as good at defense as Soresu, ok but it’s better than all others. Etc, it’s an excellent choice and it’s particularly useful in the question above about a good choice to supplement. Deflection? Shien is better but not if you also have the Jedi Knight Talent tree. So if your point is that if you want to focus on ONE aspect of lightsaber combat you can probably find a better form but I’d you’d like any balance to your character or want to bolster aspects to your focus then Niman is a great choice. You’re primarily Sorsesu or Shien but want to enhance your schtick then Niman is probably your second choice for better defense, Sum Djem, better offense, Dedication and Force Rating (which if your doggedly focused on “blade work” will enhance your trademark Form Force Talents). 
 

No, I'm not conflating the two. And I agree the two are not mutually exclusive. That being said, I'm specifically talking about blade use in combat exclusively

I submit that if a Soresu user wants to shore up his offensive capability, he'd be better served studying Ataru, Shii-Cho, or Shien, in that order of precedence, rather than Niman. If an Ataru user wants to shore up his Defense, he'd be better served cross-training in Soresu or Shien, not Niman. 

Niman is for those Jedi who want to specialize in Force use or diplomacy, but still need to have at least a basic proficiency with the lightsaber. If the Jedi wants to specialize in the lightsaber, he is better served mastering one or more of the other five forms. 

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51 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, I'm not conflating the two. And I agree the two are not mutually exclusive. That being said, I'm specifically talking about blade use in combat exclusively

I submit that if a Soresu user wants to shore up his offensive capability, he'd be better served studying Ataru, Shii-Cho, or Shien, in that order of precedence, rather than Niman. If an Ataru user wants to shore up his Defense, he'd be better served cross-training in Soresu or Shien, not Niman. 

Niman is for those Jedi who want to specialize in Force use or diplomacy, but still need to have at least a basic proficiency with the lightsaber. If the Jedi wants to specialize in the lightsaber, he is better served mastering one or more of the other five forms. 

It’s still not clear to me the reason you keep bringing this up - the focus on exclusive “blade work”. I’ve already mentioned why I don’t think it has any meaning in setting or this game and you haven’t addressed my specific points, only repeated yourself. 
 

As to your point about a course of study and Niman’s place (or lack thereof) in that...

I do think you make a good point. It may very well be the best (optimal) course of action. But then again it might not given the specifics of the situation- both in setting (narratively) and mechanically. 
Niman’s incorporation of Force use could very well legitimately be considered a great asset in lightsaber combat training. And balance itself is also a strength and could be very desirable for the practitioner. Perhaps a practitioner wants to increase offense but do so along with other aspects of lightsaber combat. 
And both in setting and mechanically a practitioner may be more naturally suited to Niman than other styles (eg, if your Agility is 1 then Ataru is a lousy choice to increase offense). 
I do think you make good points but your absolutist stance does you a disservice.  

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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9 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

This is not a thing that happens in lightsaber fights, barring edge cases like Maul versus Pre Vizla.

 Well, not in interesting lightsaber fights...

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31 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

It’s still not clear to me the reason you keep bringing this up - the focus on exclusive “blade work”. I’ve already mentioned why I don’t think it has any meaning in setting or this game and you haven’t addressed my specific points, only repeated yourself. 
 

As to your point about a course of study and Niman’s place (or lack thereof) in that...

I do think you make a good point. It may very well be the best (optimal) course of action. But then again it might not given the specifics of the situation- both in setting (narratively) and mechanically. 
Niman’s incorporation of Force use could very well legitimately be considered a great asset in lightsaber combat training. And balance itself is also a strength and could be very desirable for the practitioner. Perhaps a practitioner wants to increase offense but do so along with other aspects of lightsaber combat. 
And both in setting and mechanically a practitioner may be more naturally suited to Niman than other styles (eg, if your Agility is 1 then Ataru is a lousy choice to increase offense). 
I do think you make good points but your absolutist stance does you a disservice.  

My “absolutist” stance, as you put it, is based upon the lore specifically establishing how weak Niman is in actual battle. As noted in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC, and other primary sources, every single Niman user in the Battle of Geonosis was killed in that battle. Not one survived. In a battle situation, Niman is the worst possible form to use. You have a far greater chance of survival if you use the other forms, especially Shii-Cho, Soresu, or Shien. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 Path of the Jedi supports my view. That is a primary source, Wookieepedia is not. The Primary sources say that Niman is not as good as any other lightsaber skill at anything. It is a mediocre "grab bag" form taking bits and pieces of the other five forms, intended to be easy to learn for those Jedi who specialize primarily in diplomacy or use of the Force over use of the lightsaber. The's a "Jack of all trades, Master of none" form that provides a basic proficiency in different elements from the other forms, but doesn't make the user really any good at anything. In other words, its "just OK". That's it. As such, it has a lot of weaknesses. 

Quote verbatim the entirity of what path of the jedi says about niman... I doubt very much that it used the word "mediocre" to describe the niman lightsaber form.

Also

For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either.KAVAR

Is an exact quote from a direct source, so that argument is without merit.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My “absolutist” stance, as you put it, is based upon the lore specifically establishing how weak Niman is in actual battle. As noted in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC, and other primary sources, every single Niman user in the Battle of Geonosis was killed in that battle. Not one survived. In a battle situation, Niman is the worst possible form to use. You have a far greater chance of survival if you use the other forms, especially Shii-Cho, Soresu, or Shien. 

You are doubling down on your absolutist stance by saying things that have already been credible refuted and explained - the specifics of which you seem unwilling to engage in. 

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What about adding defense with Sense? 

What about boosting initiative with Foresee? 

What about auto-triumphs from the Seek mastery ability?

What about stressing an opponent with Influence?

What about playing Force tax and spend with Ebb-Flow?

What about boosting your skills with Enhance?

What about using protect to "shrug it off"?

What about putting the lights out and using Farsight to offset the penalties?

Etcetera!

People get so caught up in lightsaber forms that they often lose sight of the forest for the trees. 

Plainly put: Jedi are going to use the Force in a duel. Full stop.

Edited by Vondy

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11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My “absolutist” stance, as you put it, is based upon the lore specifically establishing how weak Niman is in actual battle. As noted in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC, and other primary sources, every single Niman user in the Battle of Geonosis was killed in that battle. Not one survived. In a battle situation, Niman is the worst possible form to use. You have a far greater chance of survival if you use the other forms, especially Shii-Cho, Soresu, or Shien. 

Has that played out in play-tests at your gaming table?

If not, on-screen evidence and visual dictionaries and whatnot are totally beside the point.

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Just now, Vondy said:

Has that played out in play-tests at your gaming table?

If not, on-screen evidence and visual dictionaries and whatnot are totally beside the point.

I currently play only by post on these forums. And I have never used Niman, and never will either. But, in all of the games I’ve played here, we only had one Niman user in the party, and he didn’t get into much, if any, lightsaber combat, and that game didn’t even get past the first session.

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Also verbatim from the AOTC visual guide page 63:

”In advanced lightsaber combat, the Force plays a role larger physical skill alone. Combatants use Force powers for attack and defense, while Sith attempt to break a Jedi’s inner spirit” 

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The Form VI sidebar in F&D cuts both with and against Tramp here:

”Even at the height of the Jedi Order,  not every member has the time or the passion to focus all his energies toward mastering lightsaber combat. Niman was the style most commonly used by those who chose to focus their careers in areas other than combat. While less physically demanding-and often less precise-than other forms, it is nonetheless extremely effective due to its integration with other Force techniques”. 

Edit: though the stuff that cuts with him has already been agreed to, even if what that really means (especially in relation to Geonosis) isn’t. 

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My “absolutist” stance, as you put it, is based upon the lore specifically establishing how weak Niman is in actual battle. As noted in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC, and other primary sources, every single Niman user in the Battle of Geonosis was killed in that battle. Not one survived. In a battle situation, Niman is the worst possible form to use. You have a far greater chance of survival if you use the other forms, especially Shii-Cho, Soresu, or Shien. 

Only 30 out of 214 jedi in the arena survived.  Lots of jedi died there.  The common denominator is they weren't as good combatants as the ones who lived.

You admit that (typical) niman practitioners spent very little time on learning swordplay but for some reason insist that the mediocre niman saberists are mediocre not because the they didn't invest much time learning to fight but because there are huge deficiencies the particular fighting style they didn't practice much.  That's a pretty ludicrous position 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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8 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Only 30 out of 214 jedi in the arena survived.  Lots of jedi died there.  The common denominator is they weren't as good combatants as the ones who did.

You admit that (typical) niman practitioners spent very little time on learning swordplay but for some reason insist that the mediocre niman saberists are mediocre not because the they didn't invest much time learning to fight but because there are huge deficiencies the particular fighting style they didn't practice much.  That's a pretty ludicrous position 

And that the worst choice in a battle situation is Niman. But for the legends/canon absolutist Makashi is the worst choice. And Ataru is a poor choice depending on how long the battle goes on. 

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AAAAAND if you watch the Geonosis scene most of the Jedi we see are Padawan’s or young Knights. Not exactly ideal for drawing all sorts of sweeping conclusions about forms and training. 

All the Younglings that Darth Vader slaughtered in the High Council chamber were only trained in Shii-cho. Discuss. 

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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22 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Only 30 out of 214 jedi in the arena survived.  Lots of jedi died there.  The common denominator is they weren't as good combatants as the ones who lived.

 

The only lightsaber form which was singled out as having every single practitioner wiped out was Niman. That is a key point. Even if there were only a 30 out of 214 survivors among the Jedi in that battle, those survivors had at least one or more practitioner each of Form I, Form II, form III, Form IV, and Form V represented within their numbers, but No practitioners of Form VI represented in their numbers. 

Quote

You admit that (typical) niman practitioners spent very little time on learning swordplay but for some reason insist that the mediocre niman saberists are mediocre not because the they didn't invest much time learning to fight but because there are huge deficiencies the particular fighting style they didn't practice much.  That's a pretty ludicrous position 

It's not just me. Path of the Jedi also states as much. It specifically states, "Many Jedi Battlemasters do not consider Niman sufficiently demanding." It further goes on to mention that a Nima user will never be able to defeat a Makashi expert, but is useful for facing down criminals and thugs. And thus, for Jedi Consulars, it is a form that is easily mastered. 

 

Page 74 of Path of the Jedi states in full:  (bold mine for emphasis, except in title. Underlines in actual text. with annotations from Jedi.)

Quote

Form VI Lightsaber Combat: Niman

Niman, also called the Moderation form and Way of the Rancor, is the sixth traditional lightsaber form. In everyday parlance it is known as the "diplomat's form," for it is the style preferred by Jedi Consulars who have not chosen to make a career out of combat. 

Note the key points here. Form Vi is the Moderation form. it's moderately effective, average, median, mediocre, just OK. Further, it states specifically that it is intended for, and primarily used by, Jedi Consulars. It is not intended for those who focus on combat. 

To continue:

Quote

Form Vi is the most balanced of all styles. It is not as precise as Form II, as defensive as Form II, as kinetic as Form IV, nor as dominating as Form V, but Form VI draws from all styles to create a hybrid form marked for its practicality. 

It is a hybrid form which is not as good as any of the other forms in what they do. 

To continue:

Quote

Many battlemasters do not consider Niman sufficiently demanding. While it is true that it would be nearly impossible for a Niman practitioner to defeat an expert in Makashi, this doesn't mean that the style isn't useful for facing down criminals and thugs. Thus, for Jedi Consulars, who devote most of their time to study and peacekeeping, it is a form easily mastered.

Jedi Battlemasters do not consider Niman to be demanding enough. It's not a form that is suited for combat against trained combatants. It's only really effective as a last defense against criminals and thugs. 

To continue:

Quote

To compensate for its relaxed focus on bladework, Form Vi encourages integrating Force powers into combat. Two notable moves include Draw Closer, in whicha Jedi telekinetically puls an enemy within range of a saber sweep, and Pushing Slash, in which a Jedi Force-blasts an enemy  away after inflicting a cut. Proper management of these tools allows a VI master to take control of a group of enemies and eliminate them one by one. 

The annotation states:

Quote

It's difficult to use the Force as a weapon while trying to use a lightsaber too. I need more Practice. 

-Kenobi

This is also a key point. A Niman user is essentially trying to do two things at once: Fight with a lightsaber, and use Force powers at the same time. 

 

So, yes, there are inherent deficiencies in the form itself. It is not designed for combat against trained professionals. 

22 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

And that the worst choice in a battle situation is Niman. But for the legends/canon absolutist Makashi is the worst choice. And Ataru is a poor choice depending on how long the battle goes on. 

Exactly, Niman is not designed for battle. Path of the Jedi is pretty clear on this as well. Makashi is relatively weak against multiple opponents, since it's intended for one-on-one duels, but it's not completely useless in those situations. 

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35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly, Niman is not designed for battle. Path of the Jedi is pretty clear on this as well. Makashi is relatively weak against multiple opponents, since it's intended for one-on-one duels, but it's not completely useless in those situations. 

I was quoting you, not stating it myself (I didn't format that very well but others seemed to get what I was doing).  If you are going to be an absolutist then Makashi is THE worst choice as it's against multiple opponents AND against blasters.  And Ataru is a poor choice if the battle goes on too long.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It is a hybrid form which is not as good as any of the other forms in what they do. 

This has been addressed several times.  What you see as not good at anything others see has good at a bunch of things - if not The Absolutely Best Compared To Another Form - and as has been said before this is itself a strength because it's highly adaptable to a wide array of situations.

More specifically, it's a great choice offering lots of things to people creating and developing characters.  You hate it, but others see and get great value from it.

 

I found this funny -

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jedi Battlemasters do not consider Niman to be demanding enough. It's not a form that is suited for combat against trained combatants. It's only really effective as a last defense against criminals and thugs. 

 

So they need to have a conversation with Kenobi about why he can't pull it off:

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's difficult to use the Force as a weapon while trying to use a lightsaber too. I need more Practice. 

-Kenobi

 

Oh, hey, that sounds like the AOTC Visual guide I quoted stating that a form like Niman was advanced for this very reason.

But really, I don't find the battle of quotes all that persuasive.  Interesting and fun (maybe in the right situations).

I don't know what you're really trying to accomplish here.  You think Niman is a lousy form.  Fine.  But others find it useful - particularly in this game.  If you don't directly address that I don't really know what the point of all this is.  Going back to page 1 here:

On 12/31/2019 at 2:45 PM, The Grand Falloon said:

If you really want to be lightsaber-focused, Niman Disciple is never a bad addition to whatever else you have. A few extra ranks of Reflect and Party, Defensive Training, plus both Force Rating and Dedication.  Also, I think most Force-users will have at least decent Willpower, so Draw Closer is a pretty good trick to have up your sleeve, even if it's not your focus.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:19 PM, StriderZessei said:

Right. Like you said, none of the Juyo techniques require a specific characteristic, so it has great synergy with any of the other forms. 

My point is that Juyo makes it pretty easy to kill people without any of that other fluff; my group is trying to prevent the arms race by putting a cap on how many combat-focused trees you can acquire early on. Juyo hasn't handicapped me there. 

 

To which you said:

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

 

So, your response was really a non-response.  They're having a mechanics discussion, someone suggested Niman Disciple and you hate that Spec and didn't offer an alternative suggestion and now it's become a total derail from that.  The philosophical discussion of Niman as a style and it's place in the setting is not relevant at all to that.

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9 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

This has been addressed several times.  What you see as not good at anything others see has good at a bunch of things - if not The Absolutely Best Compared To Another Form - and as has been said before this is itself a strength because it's highly adaptable to a wide array of situations.

More specifically, it's a great choice offering lots of things to people creating and developing characters.  You hate it, but others see and get great value from it.

 

I found this funny -

 

So they need to have a conversation with Kenobi about why he can't pull it off:

 

Oh, hey, that sounds like the AOTC Visual guide I quoted stating that a form like Niman was advanced for this very reason.

But really, I don't find the battle of quotes all that persuasive.  Interesting and fun (maybe in the right situations).

I don't know what you're really trying to accomplish here.  You think Niman is a lousy form.  Fine.  But others find it useful - particularly in this game.  If you don't directly address that I don't really know what the point of all this is.  Going back to page 1 here:

If you really want to be lightsaber-focused, Niman Disciple is never a bad addition to whatever else you have. A few extra ranks of Reflect and Party, Defensive Training, plus both Force Rating and Dedication.  Also, I think most Force-users will have at least decent Willpower, so Draw Closer is a pretty good trick to have up your sleeve, even if it's not your focus.

Right. Like you said, none of the Juyo techniques require a specific characteristic, so it has great synergy with any of the other forms. 

My point is that Juyo makes it pretty easy to kill people without any of that other fluff; my group is trying to prevent the arms race by putting a cap on how many combat-focused trees you can acquire early on. Juyo hasn't handicapped me there. 

 

To which you said:

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

 

So, your response was really a non-response.  They're having a mechanics discussion, someone suggested Niman Disciple and you hate that Spec and didn't offer an alternative suggestion and now it's become a total derail from that.  The philosophical discussion of Niman as a style and it's place in the setting is not relevant at all to that.

Niman relies on use of Force powers to cover for deficiencies in blade work. This is what the book itself says. Use of Force powers are included in Form VI in order to compensate for its relaxed focus on bladework. The book states that explicitly. Form VI is weak on blade work compared to all other lightsaber forms. It is deficient in actual use of the lightsaber and compensates for this deficit by use of Force powers. That is my problem with it, as a form, and the problem that is specifically stated that many in universe Jedi Battlemasters have with the form. 

 

Secondly, I have suggested alternatives. If the character intends to master the lightsaber and focus on combat, then I suggest taking one or more of Soresu, Ataru, or Shien. In fact, I suggest a combination of any two, or all three, and master them. 

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