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59 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, except for Niman, All of the other forms rely solely on blade work. And "use" of the Force is to enhance the physical attributes of the duelist in using the lightsaber directly, such as enhancing leaping ability to close with a target, throwing the lightsaber, enhancing agility or strength to attack more efficiently, etc. There is no "overt" Force use. This is borne out in the talent trees as well. Any of the "Force talents" in those trees all directly enhance the use of the blade itself. 

By contrast, Niman relies heavily on overt Force use, such as telekinesis, in lieu of blade work. That is also reflected in its talent tree. 

Exactly, and Niman was designed specifically for those Jedi who don't focus on combat. That's the whole point of the form. It's designed for those Jedi who focus on Force use instead of combat. The Jedi who focus on lightsaber combat all focus on any one of the other five forms. If you want to be a sword master, focus on one or more of the other five forms, and master it. If you want to focus on use of the Force, go ahead, take Niman. But you'll never be as skilled with a lightsaber as a pure lightsaber user who has dedicated almost all of his time mastering the blade using any of the other five forms. If you want to be a master of the fundamentals, take Shii-Cho. If you want to be a master duelist, you take Makashi. If you want to be a master of defense, take Soresu. If you want to be the best at offense, master Ataru. If you want to be a master of blaster deflection, or counterattack, take Shien. All of these forms focus completely on the mastery of the blade at the expense of  Force use. Niman is the complete opposite. It focuses on use of the Force at the expense of blade work. This is why Niman is the only Lightsaber form with a Increase Force Rating talent in the tree. It sacrifices mastery of the blade in favor of Force usage. So, a Niman user will never be as good with a lightsaber as the user of any one of the other five forms. This is because the other five forms are dedicated solely to the use of the lightsaber, and Niman is not. If you want to be a true Lightsaber master, master forms one through five. You'll suck at the use of the Force, but you'll be a master of the lightsaber

Exar kun begs to differ, or maybe you don't consider him to be a master lightsaber duelist?

The point of niman is not to be the best at anything but to be better than average at everything, to have no weaknesses to exploit.

Throwing/pulling your opponent off balance so you can run him through with a saber is also highly effective in the hands of a niman master

Edited by EliasWindrider

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53 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, except for Niman, All of the other forms rely solely on blade work. And "use" of the Force is to enhance the physical attributes of the duelist in using the lightsaber directly, such as enhancing leaping ability to close with a target, throwing the lightsaber, enhancing agility or strength to attack more efficiently, etc. There is no "overt" Force use. This is borne out in the talent trees as well. Any of the "Force talents" in those trees all directly enhance the use of the blade itself. 

By contrast, Niman relies heavily on overt Force use, such as telekinesis, in lieu of blade work. That is also reflected in its talent tree. 

But how does that make Niman inferior? Jedi don't differentiate between "subtle" and showy Force use. And how is using the Force to jump across the room different from using the Force to pulml your enemy ecross the room?

Surely not even one Jedi has ever cared one whit about what is or isn't pure blade work?

Shien, which focuses on reflecting blasters, doesn't use far more of the Force than Niman? Really?

Edited by micheldebruyn

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18 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

But how does that make Niman inferior? Jedi don't differentiate between "subtle" and showy Force use. And how is using the Force to jump across the room different from using the Force to pulml your enemy ecross the room?

Surely not even one Jedi has ever cared one whit about what is or isn't pure blade work?

Shien, which focuses on reflecting blasters, doesn't use far more of the Force than Niman? Really?

No. It doesn't. especially not direct applications of the Force. 

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1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Exar kun begs to differ, or maybe you don't consider him to be a master lightsaber duelist?

The point of niman is not to be the best at anything but to be better than average at everything, to have no weaknesses to exploit.

Throwing/pulling your opponent off balance so you can run him through with a saber is also highly effective in the hands of a niman master

Exar Kun didn’t use modern Niman. He used the archaic Niman: the two-weapon style. It’s not the same thing. And, no, modern Niman is not about being better than average at everything. It’s about being mediocre at everything but not excelling at anything.

24 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

All applications of the Force are direct.

No, they’re not. Using the Force to telekinetically lift a boulder is a direct application of the Force. Tapping into it passively to enhance your muscles is an indirect application of the Force.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exar Kun didn’t use modern Niman. He used the archaic Niman: the two-weapon style. It’s not the same thing. And, no, modern Niman is not about being better than average at everything. It’s about being mediocre at everything but not excelling at anything.

No, they’re not. Using the Force to telekinetically lift a boulder is a direct application of the Force. Tapping into it passively to enhance your muscles is an indirect application of the Force.

Tapping into the Force to enhance your muscles has you using the force to directly affect your muscles.

Edited by micheldebruyn

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Just now, micheldebruyn said:

Tapping into the Force to enhance your muscles has you using the force to directly affect your muscles.

No. It’s not. The difference comes down to the “school” of the use, so to speak, as described in sources such as Path of the Jedi. When I talk about a direct use of the Force, I refer to Force powers and techniques that fall under what the above book (and previous game systems) the purview of “Alter”. Abilities that directly affect and manipulate the outside world around the Jedi. Indirect uses of the Force fall primarily under the Control school, specifically controlling the Force within oneself. This is much like a Martial Artist controlling the Chi within his own body to enhance his strike. So, no, it’s not the same thing.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exar Kun didn’t use modern Niman. He used the archaic Niman: the two-weapon style. It’s not the same thing. And, no, modern Niman is not about being better than average at everything. It’s about being mediocre at everything but not excelling at anything.

No, they’re not. Using the Force to telekinetically lift a boulder is a direct application of the Force. Tapping into it passively to enhance your muscles is an indirect application of the Force.

The wookieepedia page specifically says no weaknesses and superior balance, choosing to discard the parts of the lore that contradict your view just makes you look willfully ignorant.

The typical niman practitioner was a very mediocre saberist but that was due to the practitioner investing very little effort in learning combat skills not to the form being intrinsically weak.  The explicit point of the form was to have no weaknesses to exploit. Most lightsaber slacking jedi chose niman because it gave the most benefit for the least effort, and didn't advance beyond the basics they needed.  But mastering niman (modern niman) required 10 years (for Anakin who was exceptionally talented but chose not to) of devotion to the form.  There was a lot to learn for those that wanted to master the form but very few did.  Not all lightsaber slacking jedi chose niman, evidenced by only 30 out of 214 jedi surving the genosis area battle.   30/214 not slacking is a pretty high bar definition of not slacking.

If not "better than average across the board" what do you propose for the meaning of "superior balance" and "no weaknesses"?

Regardless of your personal feelings, the game developers who designed the lightsaber form specializations obviously subscribed to niman == superior balance/no weaknesses.  This is clearly evidenced in the design of the lightsaber form specializations.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It’s not. The difference comes down to the “school” of the use, so to speak, as described in sources such as Path of the Jedi. When I talk about a direct use of the Force, I refer to Force powers and techniques that fall under what the above book (and previous game systems) the purview of “Alter”. Abilities that directly affect and manipulate the outside world around the Jedi. Indirect uses of the Force fall primarily under the Control school, specifically controlling the Force within oneself. This is much like a Martial Artist controlling the Chi within his own body to enhance his strike. So, no, it’s not the same thing.

Yes it is.

I mean, I could argue that better, but let's be honest here, you have made up your mind and I could write an entire book, or get George Lucas to join the forum to tell you you're wrong, and it wouldn't move your needle even a millimeter.

So, yes it is. And all you're doing is using semantics. Force use doesn't become indirect just because the Jedi only affects himself. It's still the Force having a direct effect on a part of the world, namely, the Jedi. 

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Hey guys, hijacking this thread to ask a quick question: 

One of my PCs was hoping to replace the last rank of Parry (bottom right of the Shii-Cho Knight tree, 25xp) with a custom talent; it's basically Gunslinger's 20xp "Guns Blazing" talent, but for single-bladed lightsabers. 

Would you allow it? 

Edited by StriderZessei

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33 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Hey guys, hijacking this thread to ask a quick question: 

One of my PCs was hoping to replace the last rank of Parry (bottom right of the Shii-Cho Knight tree, 25xp) with a custom talent; it's basically Gunslinger's 20xp "Guns Blazing" talent, but for single-bladed lightsabers. 

Would you allow it? 

Sarlaac sweep is close enough to that that I wouldn't, also getting 2 hits on the same opponent steps on the toes of ataru' saberswarm.

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12 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Sarlaac sweep is close enough to that that I wouldn't, also getting 2 hits on the same opponent steps on the toes of ataru' saberswarm.

Sweep allows you to hit multiple opponents once, and Swarm relies on having a higher Force rating. Not sure how there's overlap. 

For the record, this is a talent that would allow the PC to suffer 2 strain to reduce the difficulty once while dual wielding. 

I thought it fit, with SCK being the 'purest' saber form. 

Edited by StriderZessei

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, except for Niman, All of the other forms rely solely on blade work. And "use" of the Force is to enhance the physical attributes of the duelist in using the lightsaber directly, such as enhancing leaping ability to close with a target, throwing the lightsaber, enhancing agility or strength to attack more efficiently, etc. There is no "overt" Force use. This is borne out in the talent trees as well. Any of the "Force talents" in those trees all directly enhance the use of the blade itself. 

By contrast, Niman relies heavily on overt Force use, such as telekinesis, in lieu of blade work. That is also reflected in its talent tree. 

Exactly, and Niman was designed specifically for those Jedi who don't focus on combat. That's the whole point of the form. It's designed for those Jedi who focus on Force use instead of combat. The Jedi who focus on lightsaber combat all focus on any one of the other five forms. If you want to be a sword master, focus on one or more of the other five forms, and master it. If you want to focus on use of the Force, go ahead, take Niman. But you'll never be as skilled with a lightsaber as a pure lightsaber user who has dedicated almost all of his time mastering the blade using any of the other five forms. If you want to be a master of the fundamentals, take Shii-Cho. If you want to be a master duelist, you take Makashi. If you want to be a master of defense, take Soresu. If you want to be the best at offense, master Ataru. If you want to be a master of blaster deflection, or counterattack, take Shien. All of these forms focus completely on the mastery of the blade at the expense of  Force use. Niman is the complete opposite. It focuses on use of the Force at the expense of blade work. This is why Niman is the only Lightsaber form with a Increase Force Rating talent in the tree. It sacrifices mastery of the blade in favor of Force usage. So, a Niman user will never be as good with a lightsaber as the user of any one of the other five forms. This is because the other five forms are dedicated solely to the use of the lightsaber, and Niman is not. If you want to be a true Lightsaber master, master forms one through five. You'll suck at the use of the Force, but you'll be a master of the lightsaber


You are conflating combat and blade use. Power in the Force helps with combat.  The two aren’t mutually exclusive, but maybe you didn’t intend to imply that (or I’m reading into it incorrectly). 


Again, you’re drawing some sort of odd distinction of Niman sullying itself by using the Force. That’s not how combat training or fighting systems work in the real world or in the Star Wars setting. Tools are tools, effective is effective. If telekinesis makes you better than otherwise in a fight then it makes you better regardless if it’s “blade work”. Ataru also uses the Force for “telekinetic” advantage to leap and for maneuvering. That’s not blade work.  

You’re also dodging the main point that the real core issue with the high loss of life in Geonosis wasn’t Niman but the lack of focus on combat training in general regardless of the particular form emphasis. As you agree apparently Niman has synergy with other aspects of Jedi training so you get more general combat effectiveness for less time spent  training.

Above all your stance on this is completely belied by the fact that mechanically Niman is an excellent choice for being good at lightsaber combat. It isn’t better than some others in their particular specialty but it is also the most balanced. Doesn’t best Ataru in offense, ok but it does most if not all others. Isn’t as good at defense as Soresu, ok but it’s better than all others. Etc, it’s an excellent choice and it’s particularly useful in the question above about a good choice to supplement. Deflection? Shien is better but not if you also have the Jedi Knight Talent tree. So if your point is that if you want to focus on ONE aspect of lightsaber combat you can probably find a better form but I’d you’d like any balance to your character or want to bolster aspects to your focus then Niman is a great choice. You’re primarily Sorsesu or Shien but want to enhance your schtick then Niman is probably your second choice for better defense, Sum Djem, better offense, Dedication and Force Rating (which if your doggedly focused on “blade work” will enhance your trademark Form Force Talents). 
 

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1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

Hey guys, hijacking this thread to ask a quick question: 

One of my PCs was hoping to replace the last rank of Parry (bottom right of the Shii-Cho Knight tree, 25xp) with a custom talent; it's basically Gunslinger's 20xp "Guns Blazing" talent, but for single-bladed lightsabers. 

Would you allow it? 

Maybe. I’m pretty lenient as a GM. Guns Blazing is 20XP in gunslinger and so getting it for lightsabers for 25XP seems appropriate. But it’s a really nice talent, much better than just an increase in Parry Rank and indicative of a unique lightsaber style (shen or jar Kai or whatever that dual wields). So IF I allowed it I’d make the PC earn it by research and training, maybe questing for a holocron or ancient scroll describing the technique. Maybe follow the advice in some of the books and let them use the talent provisionally but costing more Strain (4?) and a Destiny Point until it’s fully learned. 
 
And how dare you hijack another hijacking argument with Tramp Graphics!

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The more I think about it Niman is probably the best second specialization choice particularly if you are focused on “just lightsaber blade work”. All Forms have a signature Form Talent using your force rating and Niman will boost that with Force Rating and boost your blade work with Dedication and no matter your other spec Niman has something for you that enhances what you already have and also broadens you out. 

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8 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The more I think about it Niman is probably the best second specialization choice particularly if you are focused on “just lightsaber blade work”. All Forms have a signature Form Talent using your force rating and Niman will boost that with Force Rating and boost your blade work with Dedication and no matter your other spec Niman has something for you that enhances what you already have and also broadens you out. 

Except Juyo. That one gets to play around with Destiny points. 

 

14 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Maybe. I’m pretty lenient as a GM. Guns Blazing is 20XP in gunslinger and so getting it for lightsabers for 25XP seems appropriate. But it’s a really nice talent, much better than just an increase in Parry Rank and indicative of a unique lightsaber style (shen or jar Kai or whatever that dual wields). So IF I allowed it I’d make the PC earn it by research and training, maybe questing for a holocron or ancient scroll describing the technique. Maybe follow the advice in some of the books and let them use the talent provisionally but costing more Strain (4?) and a Destiny Point until it’s fully learned. 
 
And how dare you hijack another hijacking argument with Tramp Graphics!

Maybe at that point when he earns it, it will just be akin to a scar talent? 

Also, how dare I indeed! 

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19 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:
30 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

 

Except Juyo. That one gets to play around with Destiny points

True but they do have Balance which keys off of Force Rating so there’s still benefit there and Niman will broaden/balance out Juyo in other ways. 

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2 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Hey guys, hijacking this thread to ask a quick question: 

One of my PCs was hoping to replace the last rank of Parry (bottom right of the Shii-Cho Knight tree, 25xp) with a custom talent; it's basically Gunslinger's 20xp "Guns Blazing" talent, but for single-bladed lightsabers. 

Would you allow it? 

I don't really think it's game breaking. The character would be using much valued Strain, this time offensively instead. So if you feel it's a fair trade, I say let the character rock.

We've gone to allowing the trade of Dedication for different talents (within reason, of course). That way there is a tangible sacrifice (attribute increase) for the desired versatility. Has worked extremely well for our group.

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1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

Sweep allows you to hit multiple opponents once, and Swarm relies on having a higher Force rating. Not sure how there's overlap. 

For the record, this is a talent that would allow the PC to suffer 2 strain to reduce the difficulty once while dual wielding. 

I thought it fit, with SCK being the 'purest' saber form. 

I thought guns blazing gave you an extra attack... the gunslinger is largely about two weapon fighting 

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29 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I thought guns blazing gave you an extra attack... the gunslinger is largely about two weapon fighting 

You're probably thinking about Spitfire, which lets you allocate the second hit to another target. 

Edited by StriderZessei

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