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If I am reading this right, I can downgrade the difficulty of an attack to basically zero, if there are enough LS Destiny points available and I spend 1 strain, yes?

 

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When making a Lightsaber combat check, the character may suffer 1 Strain to downgrade the difficulty of the check a number of times equal to the number of Destiny Points in the Destiny pool.

 

Edited by bblaney001

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1 hour ago, bblaney001 said:

If I am reading this right, I can downgrade the difficulty of an attack to basically zero, if there are enough LS Destiny points available and I spend 1 strain, yes?

 

 

Downgrade will turn Red to Purple, but it will not remove Purple.

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No amount of downgrades will reduce the difficulty, and you need to add the upgrades before downgrading.  So, let's say you're making a melee attack, generally a difficulty of 2, and your target has Adversary 3.  That upgrades your pool 3 times, making it 2 Red, 1 Purple.  Then you apply your downgrades, but no matter how many of them you have, it will only bring it down to 3 Purple.  So you Downgrade twice and then stop.

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wow. Our group has been doing that wrong. We let downgrades take a die pool down to 1 difficulty. huh...

I find it odd (and unbalanced) that downgrades don't work in the exact opposite method as upgrades. Specifically, upgrades can add to the attempt dice, but downgrades cant  subtract from the difficulty dice.

Edited by Haleron

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It definitely seems odd, but there are often a lot of ways to downgrade difficulty, and certain things should never be easy.  Attacking an Inquisitor should never be easy, nor should flying a freighter top speed through an asteroid field.  Those downgrades will make things a little easier (since red dice are more consistent) and prevent the most disastrous results (despair).

Also, if downgrades reduced difficulty, too many rolls would become so easy that the GM would need to upgrade it just to counteract such talents, and that's never good game design.

Edited by The Grand Falloon

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I agree mostly with certain things should never be easy. But it's Vapaad Control a talent from the most offensive and most deadly  Lightsaber form's tree. I think it's in the spirit of that lightsaber form to start removing purple dice if there's no more red dice to downgrade.

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16 hours ago, WolfRider said:

I agree mostly with certain things should never be easy. But it's Vapaad Control a talent from the most offensive and most deadly  Lightsaber form's tree. I think it's in the spirit of that lightsaber form to start removing purple dice if there's no more red dice to downgrade.

Downgrading isn't the same as decreasing. If it was meant to do so, the devs would have written it as such. 

Besides, reducing reds to purples, particularly against adversaries with Improved Parry and lightsabers, is already incredibly potent. 

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3 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Besides, reducing reds to purples, particularly against adversaries with Improved Parry and lightsabers, is already incredibly potent. 

   This. Especially considering that you have two ranks of Inner Peace, you would usually be reducing your Difficulty to 1.  Against mooks, you wouldn't even need to use Inner Peace. 

Also, your lightsaber pool should be at least three yellow and one green, since you also have to go through Dedication, and if you didn't start with 3 Brawn and buy up to Lightsaber 3, I don't know what's going on.  You're using that Aim maneuver, right? At my table we regularly spend an extra maneuver to Aim twice, and it costs us 2 Strain.  1 Strain to reduce the difficulty to 1 is not even a cost.

   It's also worth pointing out that Vapaad Control is one of the few "Lightsaber Form Ultimate Techniques!™" that works with all the others.  It's not dependent on a specific characteristic, and it doesn't require Force Dice.  You can't combine Draw Closer and Hawk Bat Swoop, but you could combine Vapaad Control with either of those.  That's pretty gnarly.

Edited by The Grand Falloon

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1 hour ago, The Grand Falloon said:

   This. Especially considering that you have two ranks of Inner Peace, you would usually be reducing your Difficulty to 1.  Against mooks, you wouldn't even need to use Inner Peace. 

Also, your lightsaber pool should be at least three yellow and one green, since you also have to go through Dedication, and if you didn't start with 3 Brawn and buy up to Lightsaber 3, I don't know what's going on.  You're using that Aim maneuver, right? At my table we regularly spend an extra maneuver to Aim twice, and it costs us 2 Strain.  1 Strain to reduce the difficulty to 1 is not even a cost.

   It's also worth pointing out that Vapaad Control is one of the few "Lightsaber Form Ultimate Techniques!™" that works with all the others.  It's not dependent on a specific characteristic, and it doesn't require Force Dice.  You can't combine Draw Closer and Hawk Bat Swoop, but you could combine Vapaad Control with either of those.  That's pretty gnarly.

I mean, Juyo really doesn't need any help killing people, but you certainly can do that...

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51 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I mean, Juyo really doesn't need any help killing people, but you certainly can do that...

If you really want to be lightsaber-focused, Niman Disciple is never a bad addition to whatever else you have. A few extra ranks of Reflect and Party, Defensive Training, plus both Force Rating and Dedication.  Also, I think most Force-users will have at least decent Willpower, so Draw Closer is a pretty good trick to have up your sleeve, even if it's not your focus.

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30 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

If you really want to be lightsaber-focused, Niman Disciple is never a bad addition to whatever else you have. A few extra ranks of Reflect and Party, Defensive Training, plus both Force Rating and Dedication.  Also, I think most Force-users will have at least decent Willpower, so Draw Closer is a pretty good trick to have up your sleeve, even if it's not your focus.

Right. Like you said, none of the Juyo techniques require a specific characteristic, so it has great synergy with any of the other forms. 

My point is that Juyo makes it pretty easy to kill people without any of that other fluff; my group is trying to prevent the arms race by putting a cap on how many combat-focused trees you can acquire early on. Juyo hasn't handicapped me there. 

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1 hour ago, The Grand Falloon said:

If you really want to be lightsaber-focused, Niman Disciple is never a bad addition to whatever else you have. A few extra ranks of Reflect and Party, Defensive Training, plus both Force Rating and Dedication.  Also, I think most Force-users will have at least decent Willpower, so Draw Closer is a pretty good trick to have up your sleeve, even if it's not your focus.

 

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

Right. Like you said, none of the Juyo techniques require a specific characteristic, so it has great synergy with any of the other forms. 

My point is that Juyo makes it pretty easy to kill people without any of that other fluff; my group is trying to prevent the arms race by putting a cap on how many combat-focused trees you can acquire early on. Juyo hasn't handicapped me there. 

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

True, but this is where the unfortunate but very necessary sin of 'gameplay > lore' occurs. I get that the Niman form lore-wise is akin to basic training, covering all the bases, but truly mastering none.

Gameplay-wise, I agree with The Grand Falloon; Niman is very well-rounded, and has talents that are thematic, fun, and helpful to most, if not all the different forms. I do agree with you that it better serves PCs who have invested into raising their Force Ratings, though.

Edited by StriderZessei

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Seems like a lot of people just pick Sage + Niman then go into another Tree to flesh out what you want to do.
This is like the vanilla strong thing to do, and it works without too much xp.

Everything else will be subpar, or will require much more xp until it starts to be as good.

(I am no expert on the system, at all, but enough reading gave me the above impression).

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On 12/31/2019 at 4:49 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

 

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

From wookieepedia 

Form VI

Niman.jpg
OnALegendsArticle.png GoToCanon.png

TECHNICAL INFORMATION

ALTERNATE NAME(S)

  • Niman
  • The Way of the Rancor[1]
  • The Moderation Form[1]
  • The diplomat's form

FORM NUMBER

6[1]

HISTORICAL INFORMATION

[Source]
MORE 
 
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Tab-canon-black.png   Tab-legends-white.png  
This article is about the classic sixth form of lightsaber combat. You may be looking for the dual blades combat form also known as Jar'Kai.
For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either.KAVAR

Form VI, also known as Niman, the Way of the Rancor, the Moderation Form, and the diplomat's form, was the sixth form of the seven forms of lightsaber combat. This fighting style was a hybrid martial art created by effectively combining elements of the preceding lightsaber forms into a single, generalized form. Niman balanced out between the various specializations of the other forms, covering many of the basic moves, but focusing on overall moderation. This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage, but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms. Overall, Niman had a fairly relaxed focus on bladework, designed as a simple, easily mastered fighting form for Jedi who preferred to devote most of their time to study and diplomacy. Despite this, it could be absolutely deadly in the hands of a skilled practitioner, as demonstrated by such notables as Exar Kun.

 

 

As for who died...

The task force consisted of 212 jedi, plus obiwan and Anakin makes 214, all but 30 of them died so practitioners of other forms didn't fare much better.  Point is if you slacked at a lightsaber and fought at genosis you died regardless of which form you practiced.  But many lightsaber slacker jedi practiced niman because they could get a lot of benefit for very little investment.  That doesn't make it a weak form, while it was uncommon for jedi to devote themselves to the form, those that did were absolutely deadly.   That's  the lore.  And if you read further in the article, niman took 10 years of devotion to *master*.  How many lightsaber slacking diplomats at genosis do you think had actually devoted 10 years to mastering niman?  Also given that they were fighting against blasters primarily, soresu and shien were the forms best suited to surviving genosis, so shi cho, makashi, and ataru jedi in the arena would be similarly disadvantaged as niman, with similar effort invested (although similar effort wasn't invested)

 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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18 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

From wookieepedia 

Form VI

Niman.jpg
OnALegendsArticle.png GoToCanon.png

TECHNICAL INFORMATION

ALTERNATE NAME(S)

  • Niman
  • The Way of the Rancor[1]
  • The Moderation Form[1]
  • The diplomat's form

FORM NUMBER

6[1]

HISTORICAL INFORMATION

[Source]
MORE 
 
 RECOMMENDED FOR YOU
0cebb500-f8c3-4f44-b4aa-f44e33fc2319
Fandom may earn an affiliate commission on sales made from links on this page.
 
Tab-canon-black.png   Tab-legends-white.png  
This article is about the classic sixth form of lightsaber combat. You may be looking for the dual blades combat form also known as Jar'Kai.
For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either.KAVAR

Form VI, also known as Niman, the Way of the Rancor, the Moderation Form, and the diplomat's form, was the sixth form of the seven forms of lightsaber combat. This fighting style was a hybrid martial art created by effectively combining elements of the preceding lightsaber forms into a single, generalized form. Niman balanced out between the various specializations of the other forms, covering many of the basic moves, but focusing on overall moderation. This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage, but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms. Overall, Niman had a fairly relaxed focus on bladework, designed as a simple, easily mastered fighting form for Jedi who preferred to devote most of their time to study and diplomacy. Despite this, it could be absolutely deadly in the hands of a skilled practitioner, as demonstrated by such notables as Exar Kun.

 

 

As for who died...

The task force consisted of 212 jedi, plus obiwan and Anakin makes 214, all but 30 of them died so practitioners of other forms didn't fare much better.  Point is if you slacked at a lightsaber and fought at genosis you died regardless of which form you practiced.  But many lightsaber slacker jedi practiced niman because they could get a lot of benefit for very little investment.  That doesn't make it a weak form, while it was uncommon for jedi to devote themselves to the form, those that did were absolutely deadly.   That's  the lore.  And if you read further in the article, niman took 10 years of devotion to *master*.  How many lightsaber slacking diplomats at genosis do you think had actually devoted 10 years to mastering niman?  Also given that they were fighting against blasters primarily, soresu and shien were the forms best suited to surviving genosis, so shi cho, makashi, and ataru jedi in the arena would be similarly disadvantaged as niman, with similar effort invested (although similar effort wasn't invested)

 

I took my information directly from The Jedi Path and Visual Dictionary. Try again. 

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On 12/31/2019 at 4:49 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

What does this have to add to the discussion of the mechanical Specialization considerations in this game?

Whatever you and wikipedia Legends thinks about Niman's setting considerations it's a very solid lightsaber form Specialization in FFG Star Wars RPG. 

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20 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The task force consisted of 212 jedi, plus obiwan and Anakin makes 214, all but 30 of them died so practitioners of other forms didn't fare much better.  Point is if you slacked at a lightsaber and fought at genosis you died regardless of which form you practiced.  But many lightsaber slacker jedi practiced niman because they could get a lot of benefit for very little investment.  That doesn't make it a weak form, while it was uncommon for jedi to devote themselves to the form, those that did were absolutely deadly.   That's  the lore.  And if you read further in the article, niman took 10 years of devotion to *master*.  How many lightsaber slacking diplomats at genosis do you think had actually devoted 10 years to mastering niman?  Also given that they were fighting against blasters primarily, soresu and shien were the forms best suited to surviving genosis, so shi cho, makashi, and ataru jedi in the arena would be similarly disadvantaged as niman, with similar effort invested (although similar effort wasn't invested)

One can come to all sorts of erroneous conclusions when a single data point is your whole data set - and when your premise relies on selection bias (e.g., if you assume a Jedi training with very little attention given to combat chooses Niman given how much time they'll be spending on combat training no matter which form they pick so they reasonably pick the one that will give them the most benefit given that time; in other words the whole argument becomes Jedi who don't focus on combat aren't good at combat).

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4 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

One can come to all sorts of erroneous conclusions when a single data point is your whole data set - and when your premise relies on selection bias (e.g., if you assume a Jedi training with very little attention given to combat chooses Niman given how much time they'll be spending on combat training no matter which form they pick so they reasonably pick the one that will give them the most benefit given that time; in other words the whole argument becomes Jedi who don't focus on combat aren't good at combat).

Yes you got the intended message.   Considering that 184 out of 214 jedi in the arena died, it wasn't specific to niman.  That's the point.

I wish @Tramp Graphics was as insightful as you.

To elaborate jedi using a "greedy algorithm" (yeah that's a thing) to optimize their choice of lightsaber form chose niman.  That doesn't make niman the best form which Tramp is fond of (falsely) accusing me of saying.  Niman is simple the most well rounded/balanced form.  You don't take it to be the best you take it to  have the fewest weaknesses to be exploited, so that you'll function well in the most situations.  In terms of specialization trees, it's the best defensively, the second best offensively, it helps you socially, you get a force rating, and dedication

Edited by EliasWindrider

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14 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Yes you got the intended message.   Considering that 184 out of 214 jedi in the arena died, it wasn't specific to niman.  That's the point.

I wish @Tramp Graphics was as insightful as you.

To elaborate jedi using a "greedy algorithm" (yeah that's a thing) to optimize their choice of lightsaber form chose niman.  That doesn't make niman the best form which Tramp is fond of (falsely) accusing me of saying.  Niman is simple the most well rounded/balanced form.  You don't take it to be the best you take it to  have the fewest weaknesses to be exploited, so that you'll function well in the most situations.  In terms of specialization trees, it's the best defensively, the second best offensively, it helps you socially, you get a force rating, and dedication

It really is a fantastic form mechanically in this game for all the reasons you mentioned. Also (specifically), one the of the better Form Force Talents, Sum Djem (fantastic talent).

And related to the discussion above about supplemental forms to take this one is great.

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On 1/1/2020 at 12:49 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

 

I disagree. As a pure lightsaber spec, Niman relies too much on Force usage, which fits with the lore. In terms of actual use of the lightsaber itself, the form is the weakest of all. Think about it. All of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed in that battle. There’s a reason why it’s called the “diplomat’s form”.

Surely it is entirely circumstantial what the best of the forms is? And surely all of the Forms rely heavily on Force usage? There is no Lightsaber Form that just uses skill with a blade.

In that specific battle, where all the enemy is doing is trying to shoot you, Shien would be far superior over all others. But that doesn't make Shien better or worse than  any other form in general.

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3 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Surely it is entirely circumstantial what the best of the forms is? And surely all of the Forms rely heavily on Force usage? There is no Lightsaber Form that just uses skill with a blade.

In that specific battle, where all the enemy is doing is trying to shoot you, Shien would be far superior over all others. But that doesn't make Shien better or worse than  any other form in general.

Actually, except for Niman, All of the other forms rely solely on blade work. And "use" of the Force is to enhance the physical attributes of the duelist in using the lightsaber directly, such as enhancing leaping ability to close with a target, throwing the lightsaber, enhancing agility or strength to attack more efficiently, etc. There is no "overt" Force use. This is borne out in the talent trees as well. Any of the "Force talents" in those trees all directly enhance the use of the blade itself. 

By contrast, Niman relies heavily on overt Force use, such as telekinesis, in lieu of blade work. That is also reflected in its talent tree. 

21 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

One can come to all sorts of erroneous conclusions when a single data point is your whole data set - and when your premise relies on selection bias (e.g., if you assume a Jedi training with very little attention given to combat chooses Niman given how much time they'll be spending on combat training no matter which form they pick so they reasonably pick the one that will give them the most benefit given that time; in other words the whole argument becomes Jedi who don't focus on combat aren't good at combat).

Exactly, and Niman was designed specifically for those Jedi who don't focus on combat. That's the whole point of the form. It's designed for those Jedi who focus on Force use instead of combat. The Jedi who focus on lightsaber combat all focus on any one of the other five forms. If you want to be a sword master, focus on one or more of the other five forms, and master it. If you want to focus on use of the Force, go ahead, take Niman. But you'll never be as skilled with a lightsaber as a pure lightsaber user who has dedicated almost all of his time mastering the blade using any of the other five forms. If you want to be a master of the fundamentals, take Shii-Cho. If you want to be a master duelist, you take Makashi. If you want to be a master of defense, take Soresu. If you want to be the best at offense, master Ataru. If you want to be a master of blaster deflection, or counterattack, take Shien. All of these forms focus completely on the mastery of the blade at the expense of  Force use. Niman is the complete opposite. It focuses on use of the Force at the expense of blade work. This is why Niman is the only Lightsaber form with a Increase Force Rating talent in the tree. It sacrifices mastery of the blade in favor of Force usage. So, a Niman user will never be as good with a lightsaber as the user of any one of the other five forms. This is because the other five forms are dedicated solely to the use of the lightsaber, and Niman is not. If you want to be a true Lightsaber master, master forms one through five. You'll suck at the use of the Force, but you'll be a master of the lightsaber

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