Expert Setup

[Ascarel 248]

As you know, several villains, such as Rhino and Green Goblin in the Mutagen Formula scenario, have a When Revealed ability on their Stage II card text.

When setting up for Expert, you start with a Stage II villain.

For the life of me, I cannot find anywhere in the rules where it says that during setup, selecting your villain is actually revealing it. Now, we all know that putting into play and revealing are not the same. So, in the Appendix II: Setup section of the Rules reference, on page 20, in step 8, it says:

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Select a villain and put their villain deck and main scheme deck into play near the center of the play area.

On page 18 of the Reference, at the Villain Defeat entry, it says:

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Remove the current stage of the villain deck from the game. The next sequential stage of the villain deck is revealed. 

From this I am forced to literally conclude that Expert Rhino does not start the game with the Breakin' & Takin' side scheme in play, Expert Klaw does not start the game with The Immortal Klaw side scheme in play, and Expert Goblin from Mutagen does not give you two encounter cards immediately upon starting the game.

I have not been playing like that, but verifying the rules is making me realize how I actually cannot justify playing with the side schemes (and, now, with the Goblin effect) at the start of my expert games. But then, if so, this seems off. Too easy. It's Expert mode after all.

Is there a ruling somewhere that I am unaware of that clarifies this? 

[Tarliyn 54]

Interesting,  that changes a lot of things with expert difficulty

[Silverburst3 7]

59 minutes ago, Ascarel said:

As you know, several villains, such as Rhino and Green Goblin in the Mutagen Formula scenario, have a When Revealed ability on their Stage II card text.

When setting up for Expert, you start with a Stage II villain.

For the life of me, I cannot find anywhere in the rules where it says that during setup, selecting your villain is actually revealing it. Now, we all know that putting into play and revealing are not the same. So, in the Appendix II: Setup section of the Rules reference, on page 20, in step 8, it says:

On page 18 of the Reference, at the Villain Defeat entry, it says:

From this I am forced to literally conclude that Expert Rhino does not start the game with the Breakin' & Takin' side scheme in play, Expert Klaw does not start the game with The Immortal Klaw side scheme in play, and Expert Goblin from Mutagen does not give you two encounter cards immediately upon starting the game.

I have not been playing like that, but verifying the rules is making me realize how I actually cannot justify playing with the side schemes (and, now, with the Goblin effect) at the start of my expert games. But then, if so, this seems off. Too easy. It's Expert mode after all.

Is there a ruling somewhere that I am unaware of that clarifies this? 

Well for one thing, the game does operate by the Grim Rule, so generally whatever is considered worse for the heroes is the correct option. In this case the effects happening at Setup would be worse for the heroes than not happening at all (which fits the idea of “Expert mode”) so even if the wording isn’t perfect I’ll continue to play that the stage II when revealed effects happen during Setup. 

[Tarliyn 54]

The grim rule only applies when rules are unclear.  Unless someone quotes another rule that contradicts the rules as written are pretty clear

[wyrm187 8]

I have a question regarding when revealed as well.  I played green goblin first scenario on expert difficulty and defeated stage 2. When you switch to stage 3 green goblin do you get hit with the 4 indirect damage from when green goblin is revealed?

[sverigesson 50]

Check step 10 in the setups instructions:

10. Resolve scheme setup. Resolve any “setup” instructions on side 1A of the main scheme card. Resolve any “When Revealed” abilities on encounter cards that entered play during setup.

So, pretty clear that you do resolve that “when revealed” clause.

[Ascarel 248]

5 minutes ago, sverigesson said:

Check step 10 in the setups instructions:

10. Resolve scheme setup. Resolve any “setup” instructions on side 1A of the main scheme card. Resolve any “When Revealed” abilities on encounter cards that entered play during setup.

So, pretty clear that you do resolve that “when revealed” clause.

The villain is not an Encounter card. They don't even have the same back. The villain deck is setup in step 8. This here refers to encounter cards revealed during the setup of the scheme, such as minions revealed by Klaw, for example.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ascarel

[sverigesson 50]

Sorry, look again, under “Villain”, literally the first sentence:

“Villain is an encounter card type...”

[Tarliyn 54]

Even without be 100% sure it is now ambiguous so the grim rule can kick in and you would resolve the effects

Also, it is pretty clear what the intent is

[Ascarel 248]

2 minutes ago, sverigesson said:

Sorry, look again, under “Villain”, literally the first sentence:

“Villain is an encounter card type...”

Then how can you deal Encounter cards during step 8 or 10 when you don't even have an encounter deck yet? That's step 11.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ascarel

[sverigesson 50]

What are you talking about? Now you are just being obtuse.

Is the Villain card an encounter card? Yes.

Was it revealed during setup? Yes.

Then you resolve the “when revealed” text on it.

Rules question solved.

[Ascarel 248]

Nah, I'm just trying to see where everything fits and in what order so that I can conclusively disprove the letter of the rules in favor of their spirit, as Tarilyn said. Step 11 of the setup is called Shuffle encounter deck, although I did over-interpret this part because in effect its explanation only tells you to shuffle the obligation cards into that deck. The bold summary threw me off. Still, it's really not as straightforward as you say.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ascarel

[sverigesson 50]

The encounter deck is put into play in step 8. It’s VERY clear.

Edit: misread on my part. This is not the encounter deck, but the villain deck. Still, answer remains the same.

Edited December 25, 2019 by sverigesson

[Ascarel 248]

15 minutes ago, sverigesson said:

The encounter deck is put into play in step 8. It’s VERY clear.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. See the Villain Deck entry of the Rules Reference (p. 18) and compare that with the Encounter decks section on p. 20. Villain deck and encounter decks are not the same! It's a terminological abuse of sorts to call the stack of villain cards a deck, but that is what 'villain deck' refers to.

See the visual aid in the Learn to Play document, step 8. It's pretty clear there too. On page 6.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Ascarel

[sverigesson 50]

Alright, I misread that one, admittedly. Still, the villain card is an encounter card, and it does enter play during setup, so you do resolve the “when revealed” ability. That part is perfectly clear.

[Palpster 415]

5 hours ago, Ascarel said:

 

I have not been playing like that, but verifying the rules is making me realize how I actually cannot justify playing with the side schemes (and, now, with the Goblin effect) at the start of my expert games. But then, if so, this seems off. Too easy. It's Expert mode after all.

Is there a ruling somewhere that I am unaware of that clarifies this? 

Cannot justify? It’s a coop game. If you feel better playing with side schemes (like I do) play them! No one will come to your house and take your cards away from you for cheating. Heck, if you feel you need more challenge and want to try all villains with +10hp that’s  not in the rules either, but no one will stop you from playing that way.

 

[Ascarel 248]

2 hours ago, Palpster said:

Cannot justify? It’s a coop game. If you feel better playing with side schemes (like I do) play them! No one will come to your house and take your cards away from you for cheating. Heck, if you feel you need more challenge and want to try all villains with +10hp that’s  not in the rules either, but no one will stop you from playing that way.

 

This is a fair point, but I like to know how a game was intended to be played before gaming everything according to my own whims. I'm just like that... 😅 I would actually enjoy playing this "expert light" mode and would do it more often if I knew it was the way it was meant to be played originally. With all due respect to the other posters, no one has yet addressed my original contention: that provided 'put into play' and 'reveal' are not the same, the rules as written are telling us not to apply the When Revealed effects of the Villain during setup. The following quotes are what I am getting at:

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Playing a card, putting a card into play by using a card ability, or revealing a card from the encounter deck are all different means by which a card may enter play. (Enters Play, p. 7)

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To reveal an encounter card, a player flips the card faceup  and resolves the card, including any keywords and “When Revealed” effects. (Reveal, p. 14).

Interestingly, the various Encounter cards type listed in the Reveal entry on p. 14 do NOT mention the Villain type. As I quoted in my first post, the only place you'll see that is in the Villain Defeat entry on p. 18. Since you do reveal a new villain stage, this omission here on page 14 does nothing to help at all.

 The closest to a direct answer we can find is the When Revealed Abilities entry, on p. 19:

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A when revealed ability is a type of triggered ability, indicated by the bold “When Revealed” timing trigger. When a player reveals a card from the encounter deck, a new scheme stage, or a new villain stage, all when revealed abilities on the card resolve.

•  If an encounter card with a “When Revealed” ability enters play during setup, resolve that ability during setup step 10.

Step 10 of the Setup rules is called Resolve Scheme Setup. In the Learn to Play document, one reads about it: "Resolve any “Setup” instructions on the main scheme card." In the Reference, on p. 20, one rather reads: 

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Resolve any “Setup” instructions on side 1A of the main scheme card. Resolve any “When Revealed” abilities on encounter cards that entered play during setup.

Sverigesson's point is that the second sentence in the above quote must be read independantly of both the preceding sentence and the actual title of the setup step. I do not believe this is the correct way to interpret this instruction in this case.

But I think we can all agree that the Reference document does have several holes here... 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Ascarel

[Derrault 1,091]

RRG page 2:

The resolution of the following ability types is mandatory: constant abilities, when revealed abilities, when defeated abilities, forced abilities, boost abilities, and keywords. If one of these ability types uses the word “may,” the part of the ability following the word “may” is optional.

Mandatory is mandatory, the optional things are listed below that entry if you care to look those up. 

[Ascarel 248]

When Revealed abilities are mandatory but they are still triggered abilities, which is confirmed on the bottom right of p. 17. That points exactly to the question I am putting forward: where/when does this reveal trigger fire, on the first stage of the Villain card, during the setup phase. We all have a vague idea, I *know*. 😂 But so far it seems we all have taken it for granted, that much seems increasingly clear to me. I'm sorry guys, I'm genuinely not trying to troll or anything. Just trying to make sense of the rules as written, which may be stupid and quixotic. Sorry all... Merry Christmas btw... 😂 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Ascarel

[sverigesson 50]

I don’t think it’s stupid to try and get the rules as precisely right as possible. That’s noble, in fact. However, where there have been a number of cases where the rules actually are a bit ambiguous, this is not one of those cases. It’s actually one of the easiest problems to resolve, and I suspect that’s why I haven’t seen it come up before.

A) In step 8, you “put the villain deck into play”.

B) “In play and out of play” (RR p.9) says that the top card of the villain deck is “in play”. Thus, whatever is the first phase of the villain you have selected “entered play” in step 8.

C) A villain card is an encounter card, as per the “Villain” section (RR p.18). Thus, the first Villain phase is “an encounter card” that “entered play during setup.”

D) Step 10 tells you to resolve any “when revealed” abilities on encounter cards that entered play during setup. Which includes the first villain phase card, per A, B, and C.

I respect what you are trying to do here, but this is a case where you are going out of your way to find ambiguity where there is none, and to try and fight against a clear and simple rule explanation when one is given to you. Move on to something in this game that actually is confusing.

And it’s not Christmas anymore where I am typing this, so HUMBUG!!! 😉🤣

[FearLord 546]

Agreed - it is clear that you do the when revealed text on the Villain card and Main scheme cards at the beginning of the game.

[wyrm187 8]

19 hours ago, wyrm187 said:

I have a question regarding when revealed as well.  I played green goblin first scenario on expert difficulty and defeated stage 2. When you switch to stage 3 green goblin do you get hit with the 4 indirect damage from when green goblin is revealed?

 

Hi so the answer to my question is yes? Advancing to the next stage of green goblin forces the when revealed effect and you take 4 indirect damage??

[FearLord 546]

2 minutes ago, wyrm187 said:

 

Hi so the answer to my question is yes? Advancing to the next stage of green goblin forces the when revealed effect and you take 4 indirect damage??

Yes, when revealed effects happen when cards come into play from out of play. You definitely reveal Green Goblin when each stage appears or you Flip over to him from Norman Osborn.

[wyrm187 8]

Thanks

[Khudzlin 734]

5 hours ago, FearLord said:

Yes, when revealed effects happen when cards come into play from out of play. You definitely reveal Green Goblin when each stage appears or you Flip over to him from Norman Osborn.

Your first sentence is far too general. You do reveal the next villain stage when you defeat a villain. You also reveal the next main scheme when the current one advances. But an encounter card entering play is not sufficient for its When Revealed effect to trigger, it has to be specifically revealed (usually during the last step of the villain phase) or enter play during villain setup.