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Tri3

Suppression Is Too Weak

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Played a game last night where I ended up suppressing Sabine with 9 suppression tokens making her route. I concentrated fire on her from a bunch of units.

Here is where I think it is too easy to get back in the game.

  1. When she routed, she only has to move a single move away rather than 2 moves.
  2. During her next activation phase, she rolled to remove suppression and rolled 6 shields/surges, so she wasn't suppressed because she was within the command range of a leader that had a courage value of 2. I am okay with that because she got a lucky roll.  
  3. She still had 3 suppression tokens left and was able to remove them all using the recover action.

It is too easy to remove suppression, so in her case, in one turn she was able to remove 9 suppression tokens. I think in the recover phase you should only be able to remove 2 suppressions, and if you want to remove more, you would have to roll white dice as you do in the activation phase.  That gives a bit more randomness for recovery if you want to remove more than 2.  Being able to shrug off all the remaining suppression in the recovery phase, especially if it's a high leadership unit that has a ton of suppression on them is too easy.

Lastly I think the move away is too slow.  IMO once a unit is panicked, on the 2nd turn if they are still panicked they should should perform 2 moves rather than a single move.

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1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

 

Played a game last night where I ended up suppressing Sabine with 9 suppression tokens making her route. I concentrated fire on her from a bunch of units.

Here is where I think it is too easy to get back in the game.

  1. When she routed, she only has to move a single move away rather than 2 moves.
  2. During her next activation phase, she rolled to remove suppression and rolled 6 shields/surges, so she wasn't suppressed because she was within the command range of a leader that had a courage value of 2. I am okay with that because she got a lucky roll.  
  3. She still had 3 suppression tokens left and was able to remove them all using the recover action.

It is too easy to remove suppression, so in her case, in one turn she was able to remove 9 suppression tokens. I think in the recover phase you should only be able to remove 2 suppressions, and if you want to remove more, you would have to roll white dice as you do in the activation phase.  That gives a bit more randomness for recovery if you want to remove more than 2.  Being able to shrug off all the remaining suppression in the recovery phase, especially if it's a high leadership unit that has a ton of suppression on them is too easy.

Lastly I think the move away is too slow.  IMO once a unit is panicked, on the 2nd turn if they are still panicked they should should perform 2 moves rather than a single move.

You understand how rare it is to remove 6 in one go? .0198 I believe 

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Sabine is one of the only units in the game that can remove all her suppression immediately. With her 2 pip command card she gets a free recover action when she activates making her basically immune to panic. So far the only units that can get a free recover action with a command card are Sabine, Rex, and Veers. Veers' card can have 2 other units recover as well. But that's only 3 different units that get free recover actions and in basically any other case, recover is simply a terrible activation to perform. You'd only perform it when you're already suppressed so it would take your entire activation. And since you can't do it when panicked, it just makes no sense.

I do agree with you however that when panicking, the units should perform two moves. They're running for their lives they should at least be able to run a little faster.

Also, 6 blocks and surges on rallying?! that's just insane and do not expect that to happen ever again. That's about as big of a fluke as I've ever seen. Sounds like your opponent just had some incredible luck so I wouldn't assume suppression is weak from this one instance of good luck

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I am not really having issue with the removal of the 6 suppression tokens because it was a crazy lucky roll, I am having issue with the recover rule.  Being able to get rid of all the rest of the suppression seems to me a bit much.  Like I said before being able to get rid of 2 seems reasonable or having the option to get rid of 2 or roll like you do in the activation phase to try and get rid of more.  It would be similar to how the Strict orders works, but you would have the option of removing 2 instead of 1 or roll and gamble on removing more.

Edited by Tri3

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4 hours ago, Tri3 said:

 

Played a game last night where I ended up suppressing Sabine with 9 suppression tokens making her route. I concentrated fire on her from a bunch of units.

Here is where I think it is too easy to get back in the game.

  1. When she routed, she only has to move a single move away rather than 2 moves.
  2. During her next activation phase, she rolled to remove suppression and rolled 6 shields/surges, so she wasn't suppressed because she was within the command range of a leader that had a courage value of 2. I am okay with that because she got a lucky roll.  
  3. She still had 3 suppression tokens left and was able to remove them all using the recover action.

It is too easy to remove suppression, so in her case, in one turn she was able to remove 9 suppression tokens. I think in the recover phase you should only be able to remove 2 suppressions, and if you want to remove more, you would have to roll white dice as you do in the activation phase.  That gives a bit more randomness for recovery if you want to remove more than 2.  Being able to shrug off all the remaining suppression in the recovery phase, especially if it's a high leadership unit that has a ton of suppression on them is too easy.

Lastly I think the move away is too slow.  IMO once a unit is panicked, on the 2nd turn if they are still panicked they should should perform 2 moves rather than a single move.

Something is not right here.

Sabine has 9 suppression tokens, before she becomes panicked, she can try to rally herself. 

So either she rolled 0 out of 9 dice for removing suppression (in which case you shouldn't complain if she rolls 6 the next activation) or she didn't roll at all. Or she rolled not enough to avoid panick. In which case next activation she didn't need to roll so good.

Secondly, Sabine has command 2, so she doesn't care about any rebel commander a part Luke and Jyn. All other commander have the same command value as her. 

Third even if for some reason she still had 9 suppressions after her first activation, she should at least remove one at the end of the turn (unless you were playing hostile environment) . 

Last, losing all unit's activation running to the nearest table edge or recovering will surely ruin any tactical plan made by a player. So panick is still an interesting option. 

 

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I think I had 3 or 4 units shoot at her before she activated, plus the she already had suppression on her from last turn.  When she activated, she rolled 9 white dice with 6 coming up shields/surges, which put her to 3.  Which means she could then activate, but since she had 3 more suppressions, the player chose the recover action and got rid of the remaining suppression for a total of 9 suppressions removed in 1 turn.  

Another option would be you can only recover the amount that is equal to your courage.  So in Sabine's case, that would mean a maximum of 2.  I would be happy with that.

To me it seems removal of suppression is too easy in the recovery stage when you have a lot of suppression tokens on you.

Edited by Tri3

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1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

I think I had 3 or 4 units shoot at her before she activated, plus the she already had suppression on her from last turn.  When she activated, she rolled 9 white dice with 6 coming up shields/surges, which put her to 3.  Which means she could then activate, but since she had 3 more suppressions, the player chose the recover action and got rid of the remaining suppression for a total of 9 suppressions removed in 1 turn.  

Another option would be you can only recover the amount that is equal to your courage.  So in Sabine's case, that would mean a maximum of 2.  I would be happy with that.

To me it seems removal of suppression is too easy in the recovery stage when you have a lot of suppression tokens on you.

So she had 3 suppression (vs 2 courage) and used the recover action (her only action that turn because her suppression is greater than her/her commanders courage and no rebel command has courage greater than 3) to shake off the rest of the suppression and she didn't do anything else that turn? 
Sounds like you successfully took a turn(1/6 of the game or 17% of the game) away from a dangerous operative.

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You are correct that I took her out of the game for essentially 2 turns, but it took a ton of fire power solely directed at her to do so and after all that, she was only 1 move away from where she started retreating from.  It also meant other enemy units could take advantage of the fact that I wasn't firing at them, which they did.

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Kicking off 6 suppression on a roll of 9 is far from the norm. I remember years ago someone saying that the randomization engine in neverwinter nights hit 20 on 20 sided roll 6 times running, however this happens about 1 in million, needless to say he engine wasn't the problem. The same here.

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27 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Why didn't she just die after putting that much fire power into her? Was it lucky defense dice too?

Quite possibly,  red defense die, surge to block, nimble keyword, this puts her as having the best save in the game , she also has a personal shield as well as impervious so even pierce shots have a good chance of being shrugged off. So it sounds like there was definitely a lot of lucky dice rolling in being able to shrug off suppression and the wounds.

when rolling against the suppression you expect her to be able to remove 3 on a roll of 9, so all being well she has to run for 3 rounds on average die results. So turn 1 roll against 9 remove 3, then remove 1 at end of turn. Roll next round you roll against 5 , removing 1.66 on average and 1 at end of the turn, bringing her back into the game after having ran for two speed 3 moves (with jump) towards the nearest edge.  The suppression dice roll could quite equally have come up blank, as anyone who has rolled white dice often enough, Anyway on average this would have taken her out of the game for at least 1/3 to1/2 the game, but she had exceptional luck, but as pointed out she can mitigate a lot of suppression by using her recovery command card anyway. 

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8 hours ago, Tri3 said:

You are correct that I took her out of the game for essentially 2 turns, but it took a ton of fire power solely directed at her to do so and after all that, she was only 1 move away from where she started retreating from.  It also meant other enemy units could take advantage of the fact that I wasn't firing at them, which they did.

Let’s put it like this then.  You basically spent all that firepower to kill her at four activations.  Seems pretty good to me.  I’ve committed more to kill weaker heroes later.

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In an absolute best case scenario, Sabine gets 12 actions total for the entire game. (10 if playing skirmish).

On her panic turn, she lost 2 of those. Her recovery action cost her another one. Not to mention the positioning lost to the panic move, another action will have to be spent to gain that ground back. 

 

Don't think 'She didn't run off the table, supression sucks!' Instead, marvel at how you completely nullified an expensive hero unit for a full quarter of the game or more.

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9 hours ago, Knobbonk said:

In an absolute best case scenario, Sabine gets 12 actions total for the entire game. (10 if playing skirmish).

On her panic turn, she lost 2 of those. Her recovery action cost her another one. Not to mention the positioning lost to the panic move, another action will have to be spent to gain that ground back. 

 

Don't think 'She didn't run off the table, supression sucks!' Instead, marvel at how you completely nullified an expensive hero unit for a full quarter of the game or more.

yups^ Everything here. This is a great way of looking at it. 

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