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1 hour ago, DarthDude said:

Johnson's LJ contradicted TFA

In what way?

1 hour ago, DarthDude said:

RoS contradicted LJ to the point that for example a major protagonist of LJ was scrapped.

Well, while I agree Rose was given short shrift in TRoS, that’s not really a contradiction.

Citations still needed.

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And I mean, one could argue that the OT contradicted itself movie after movie, but you know, that's fine, I guess.

Anyway, I'm just glad people can stop ******* and moaning about the Skywalker Saga now that Disney/LFL is free of the baggage and can push on with more things like The Mandalorian.

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1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

And I mean, one could argue that the OT contradicted itself movie after movie, but you know, that's fine, I guess.

Anyway, I'm just glad people can stop ******* and moaning about the Skywalker Saga now that Disney/LFL is free of the baggage and can push on with more things like The Mandalorian.

Which contradictions in the OT? Any of the new trilogy's epic proportions?

If you think of the OT as "baggage" just to praise the new trilogy, then Disney is truly what you deserve. All power to you. 😉

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2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Citations still needed.

Honestly? Did you see the sequels after all? For instance Luke throwing the saber away like a piece of junk in LJ and then catches it in RoS telling something about to respect a jedi's weapon? 🤔

Didn't want to spoiler. Go, watch the movies and make up your mind. And after you watched them, watch that video of someone who is surely not suspicios being "right wing":

 

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47 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

For instance Luke throwing the saber away like a piece of junk in LJ and then catches it in RoS telling something about to respect a jedi's weapon?

Oh, you mean the character who began TLJ with the mindset that the Jedi should end, reassessed his views during the movie, and ended it by literally saying, “I will not be the last Jedi?” That one? Not seeing how that’s a contradiction, as the later action is built upon the character’s journey in the previous movie, specifically relying on its juxtaposition with the earlier action.

50 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Didn't want to spoiler. Go, watch the movies and make up your mind.

I have. On both counts.

50 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

And after you watched them, watch that video of someone who is surely not suspicios being "right wing":

Wait...first, I’m supposed to watch the movies myself and make up my own mind...

...then instead I’m supposed to watch some guy’s YouTube video ranting about “plot holes” and take his opinion as gospel?

Which is it?

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7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Wait...first, I’m supposed to watch the movies myself and make up my own mind...

...then instead I’m supposed to watch some guy’s YouTube video ranting about “plot holes” and take his opinion as gospel?

Which is it?

Yeah, I am aware you have issues with reading thoroughly as usual. To quote myself:

1 hour ago, DarthDude said:

Didn't want to spoiler. Go, watch the movies and make up your mind. And after you watched them, watch that video of someone who is surely not suspicios being "right wing":

Not instead, I wrote after.

But yeah, every plothole is not a contradiction, it's just a reassessment to you. I envy your noncritical world view. All power to you. 😉

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4 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

And I mean, one could argue that the OT contradicted itself movie after movie, but you know, that's fine, I guess.

Anyway, I'm just glad people can stop ******* and moaning about the Skywalker Saga now that Disney/LFL is free of the baggage and can push on with more things like The Mandalorian.

Yes...because they totally couldn't have someone like say...Ben Solo (who is a Skywalker biologically) have a secret child from years ago off camera.  I mean, come on, they totally wouldn't just magic up a biological connection between an incredibly unlikely set of characters, that happened entirely off screen, in between films.   Nope...tooootally not something they would do with this franchise.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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29 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Not instead, I wrote after.

I’m aware.

But, if I’m supposed to make up my own mind, why should I then have to watch some guy’s YouTube rant about so-called “plot holes.” Speaking of...

29 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

But yeah, every plothole is not a contradiction, it's just a reassessment to you.

“Plot hole.”

you-keep-using-that-word.jpg

A character who begins a story with one view, undergoes story progression to reach a new conclusion, affirms that new perspective in dialogue, then acts upon that new perspective is not a plot hole. If we follow your reasoning here, then after stating he had not intention of helping the Rebels against the Death Star, Han choosing to return and save Luke is a “plot hole.”

”Plot hole” has become an overused, misapplied term for...well...a lot of things...but usually not actual plot holes.

29 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

I envy your noncritical world view.

Of course, because I have a favorable view of a movie you didn’t enjoy, I must  have a “non critical world view.” A movie didn’t work for you that you went into hoping to enjoy. It happens. To all of us. And, when it does, we all usually try to look for a reason. Sometimes, that reason is just a matter of personal tastes and preferences.

Edited by Nytwyng

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1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Sometimes, that reason is just a matter of personal tastes and preferences.

Are you suggesting that art is subjective, and people can have completely different, but still valid, opinions about a thing, without either person being wrong, because their experience of it is entirely their own, and no one else's?

How controversially radical. ;)

Scratch that  we're talking about Star Wars fandom here, more chance of winning the euromillions. 

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5 hours ago, DarthDude said:

Which contradictions in the OT? Any of the new trilogy's epic proportions?

If you think of the OT as "baggage" just to praise the new trilogy, then Disney is truly what you deserve. All power to you. 😉

Literally like all of the changes to the OT between films in regards to Vader being Luke's dad, Leia being the secret sister, Obi-Wan basically lying, but then not lying, constant changes/edits with rereleases, ect. ect. 

And the baggage is 42+ years of fan baggage. Opinions, pet fan theories that MUST come true, understandable deep feelings that can cause overreactions, ect.

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8 hours ago, DarthDude said:

Johnson and Abrahams. Johnson's LJ contradicted TFA and RoS contradicted LJ to the point that for example a major protagonist of LJ was scrapped. Would a John Favreau have provided a story arc across all three movies and oversaw the filming, we would have a way more consistent trilogy.

I wouldnt say the contradicted each other so much as piss all over each other's contributions. We probably would have been better off if JJ directed ep 8. But seeing as how JJ was an executive producer on TLJ he probably should have stepped in when he didnt like what was being done. Shrug. But then I lay this all at Kathleen Kennedys feet because she didnt have a clear over all story so that the story didnt end up disjointed.

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49 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

But then I lay this all at Kathleen Kennedys feet because she didnt have a clear over all story so that the story didnt end up disjointed.

Earlier tonight, I heard a comment that rang pretty true. It's not really that Marvel "had a plan*" (because they didn't), but that they used directors who were great at improv; that they followed the improv philosophy of, "Yes, and..." then building off of what the last one passed off. With this trio of movies, it would appear that at least one of the directors involved (which one, depends greatly upon one's Certain Point of View) didn't do that.

(*The same point went on to note that "having a plan" is also no guarantee of audience satisfaction, pointing out that Game of Thrones' endpoint was known to the producers from the beginning, but the audience still wasn't happy with how the endpoint was reached. I've made a similar point before about How I Met Your Mother; the showrunners locked in an endgame in the second season that their own storytelling led the characters to outgrow by the time they stubbornly stuck with that ending in season 9, leading to such a large fan outcry that the home video release had an option to watch the finale recut in such a way as to ignore that predetermined endpoint.)

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43 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Earlier tonight, I heard a comment that rang pretty true. It's not really that Marvel "had a plan*" (because they didn't), but that they used directors who were great at improv; that they followed the improv philosophy of, "Yes, and..." then building off of what the last one passed off. With this trio of movies, it would appear that at least one of the directors involved (which one, depends greatly upon one's Certain Point of View) didn't do that.

(*The same point went on to note that "having a plan" is also no guarantee of audience satisfaction, pointing out that Game of Thrones' endpoint was known to the producers from the beginning, but the audience still wasn't happy with how the endpoint was reached. I've made a similar point before about How I Met Your Mother; the showrunners locked in an endgame in the second season that their own storytelling led the characters to outgrow by the time they stubbornly stuck with that ending in season 9, leading to such a large fan outcry that the home video release had an option to watch the finale recut in such a way as to ignore that predetermined endpoint.)

except the MCU had an end point that everyone was onboard driving to. So it wasnt just improv it was an end goal they everyone was working to and improving their way to. So the MCU had a plan. It was a loose one but on none the less

 

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19 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

except the MCU had an end point that everyone was onboard driving to. So it wasnt just improv it was an end goal they everyone was working to and improving their way to. So the MCU had a plan. It was a loose one but on none the less

 

In the broadest sense of, "Yeah, we're gonna do a riff on Infinity Gauntlet," they had an endpoint in place. But this idea of an intricate road map over 20+ movies is a fallacy. I seem to recall that the Thanos cameo at the end of 2012's Avengers was decided relatively last minute, as well, so even that vague Infinity Gauntlet riff wasn't an idea in place from the beginning. And, as noted, even having a specific endpoint in mind is no guarantee of audience satisfaction. If one or both of the directors involved weren't willing to work with the setup left by their predecessor, no amount of advance plan will help. Going back to the HIMYM example again, the showrunners refused to work with where their own stories took the characters in the 7 years that followed their choosing an endpoint, and so the finale went over like the proverbial lead balloon. Arguably the aspect of Game of Thrones' final season that dissatisfied viewers the most (the end of a particular character's arc) was laid out explicitly in the character's own stated manifesto when recruiting an army back in season one. Those plans didn't pan out for many in their respective audiences, despite being carried out as conceived.

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13 hours ago, DarthDude said:

Johnson and Abrahams. Johnson's LJ contradicted TFA and RoS contradicted LJ to the point that for example a major protagonist of LJ was scrapped. Would a John Favreau have provided a story arc across all three movies and oversaw the filming, we would have a way more consistent trilogy.

Johnson did not contradict TFA.

ROS contradicted both TFA and TLJ, and ROTJ.

This suggests that there actually was a plan, and that somebody (probably Disney rather than somebody at Lucasfilm) panicked and threw it out because of angry fanboys.

Edited by micheldebruyn

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I don’t think Disney was ever worried. Especially not about a vocal minority online. TLJ is the ninth highest grossing movie of all time, was released to rave reviews, had a completely drama free filming process, Johnson was done ahead of schedule, stayed within budget and had an excellent rapport with the cast and higher ups. 
 

Edited by DanteRotterdam

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9 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

In the broadest sense of, "Yeah, we're gonna do a riff on Infinity Gauntlet," they had an endpoint in place. But this idea of an intricate road map over 20+ movies is a fallacy. I seem to recall that the Thanos cameo at the end of 2012's Avengers was decided relatively last minute, as well, so even that vague Infinity Gauntlet riff wasn't an idea in place from the beginning. And, as noted, even having a specific endpoint in mind is no guarantee of audience satisfaction. If one or both of the directors involved weren't willing to work with the setup left by their predecessor, no amount of advance plan will help. Going back to the HIMYM example again, the showrunners refused to work with where their own stories took the characters in the 7 years that followed their choosing an endpoint, and so the finale went over like the proverbial lead balloon. Arguably the aspect of Game of Thrones' final season that dissatisfied viewers the most (the end of a particular character's arc) was laid out explicitly in the character's own stated manifesto when recruiting an army back in season one. Those plans didn't pan out for many in their respective audiences, despite being carried out as conceived.

That is the thing. Star Wars didnt even have that. They had 0 plan and ithows

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7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That is the thing. Star Wars didnt even have that. They had 0 plan and ithows

Citation needed.

Or, if we're just tossing out conjecture based on what made it to screen...the OT didn't "have a plan," either. The "plan" for the would-be trilogy was condensed down to the first movie, because that's all that might have been made. That's why, when we get to RotJ, the "endpoint" is the same as in the first: destroy the Death Star. (We're even told in the original opening crawl that destroying the first Death Star will "restore freedom to the galaxy." If no more movies were made, the ending can support that idea. But, it was a hit, so six years later, destroying another Death Star will apparently really restore freedom to the galaxy this time.) Vader's redemption wasn't part of any "plan," because he was intended to be a secondary villain, responsible for the death of Luke's father (rather than actually being that father), who died in the Death Star battle. The redemption arc doesn't apply, and Lucas' insistence over the years that Star Wars has "always been about" the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker is, frankly, revisionist caca.

Meanwhile, based upon TFA's setup, TLJ's "yes, and..." continuation of that setup, and TRoS following through with it (regardless of how one might feel about how particular entries in the trilogy executed the idea) it would appear that a redemption arc for Kylo Ren/Ben Solo was in the cards all along. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be a "plan." The Resistance defeating the First Order by the end of Episode IX would seem to be a foregone conclusion, so that's as much of a plan as, "We wanna get to a riff on Infinity Gauntlet." It's just that, for better or for worse, what this trilogy wanted to do a riff on was...well...another trilogy in the same series. The next frequent topic I see about this begins with a variation on, "Yeah, but if they were gonna wrap up the 'Skywalker Saga....'" Personally, I don't think they went into production of this trilogy intending to do that. (Pure supposition on my part.) When the first film plans were announced, it was said that we'd get a new movie every year, alternating year-to-year between a numbered episode "saga" film, and a stand-alone story (or part of a non-"saga" series, as the case may be). It sure sounded like the "saga" was meant to go indefinitely, showing the epic battle of good vs evil persisting across many generations. I believe though, that a combination of factors - including, but not limited to, the relatively small but vocal reactions to both TFA and TLJ that made for no-win scenarios ("TFA is too much like ANH! Give us something different!"/"TLJ is too different! Give us more of the same!"), the production problems and box offic underperformance of Solo, and possibly the cold splash of the real world that was Carrie Fisher's death - changed LFL's direction for the entire franchise; that it was deemed better in the long run to tie up the "saga," and rely on settings and characters less intrinsically tied to it for success.

We can debate all day (and some people have ;) ) about the success of its execution, which is largely going to be subjective, but it would appear that they had as much overall plan as was necessary without removing the "player agency" (to try bringing it all around to gaming) of the writers and directors.

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6 minutes ago, AceSolo5 said:

Also... I never got the hate that surrounded Solo. For me it was a great addition to Star Wars... fun story, interesting characters, great planet locations.... personally I can’t see what’s not to like? 

While I agree, I didn’t see hate so much as apathy. Quite public tales of the production problems made some conclude in advance that it would be a hot mess, so they’d just stay away. And it wasn’t helped by being released so soon in the wake of Infinity War’s release, with that movie far out-performing even the most optimistic predictions at the box office. (Marvel/Disney knew it was going to be big...they didn’t count on it being as big as it ended up being.) It was a perfect storm of little things that didn’t reflect on the final product just sort of leaving it left out.

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4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

While I agree, I didn’t see hate so much as apathy. Quite public tales of the production problems made some conclude in advance that it would be a hot mess, so they’d just stay away. And it wasn’t helped by being released so soon in the wake of Infinity War’s release, with that movie far out-performing even the most optimistic predictions at the box office. (Marvel/Disney knew it was going to be big...they didn’t count on it being as big as it ended up being.) It was a perfect storm of little things that didn’t reflect on the final product just sort of leaving it left out.

All of this, yeah. I know some people who said their kids weren't interested in Han Solo's backstory because they were more attached to the ST characters, but I think if Disney let LFL release in December, it would've been a different story. 

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