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KCDodger

The Last Jedi Appreciation Thread! (Oddly contains RoS spoilers???)

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be fair, it's not like borderline magical healing tech is new to the universe....

...True enough, Bacta has been a thing since Empire.

...however...

... Luke's experience s with Bacta in Empire were basically recovering from a bear mauling and frostbite, and he also endured life and perspective changing injuries with the cybernetic hand.

Basically, Bacta (rapidly) sped up his recovery process, but it didn't do everything.

Finn, on the other hand - suffered what should have been a life altering injury in The Force Awakens - a more brutal hit than Luke ever receives...

tumblr_inline_pan36c4lwg1u119nf_400.gifv

...and, barring a Bacta suit scene that was played entirely for comedy, it was never mentioned again.  He doesn't struggle to deal with the effects - physical or mental - of what hapoened.

Finn went toe to toe with Kylo in the first film.  He was being presented as someone who could potentially become a key player.  In the last jedi, he regresses, and that only continues into the finale.

His arc may as well have ended on Starkiller.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, Finn was a character they created, but really didn't have a solid arc except for being a deserter and some kind of strange jack of all trades Stormtrooper. Rifleman, hand to hand fighter, janitor, engineer, gunner, jockey, the list goes on. 

What would have been a least a fitting arc or something his character accomplished was if the Rose replacement (the female FO trooper) said "we heard about your desertion and it inspired us to throw down our arms." or something to that effect. Not we just all felt compelled to do it all at once, or whatever the heck she said. There are just so many things in these films that if they just tweaked a line or two the whole thing comes together a bit more. 

 

Edited by Jo Jo

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Posted (edited)

Well... he doesn't have an arc so much as a wave. He goes from deserter that is trying to save his own skin, to standing up and fighting with Rey. To, I'm GTFO out of here, to then again helping the resistance and standing up to the bad guy. Then when he gets his ultimate moment to stand up to the FO itself and defy them to save his new found friends...its taken away from him. Its just kind of too abrupt of a turn in the course of what seems like maybe a day or two, going from him trying to save his own hide into I'll kamikaze into a big freaking laser to save everyone.

Then in ROS he isn't giving a whole lot to do except yell "Rey!" every so often, and he doesn't even get a chance to proclaim his puppy dog love for her (which I guess is what he was going to tell her). Then he is given the most absurd, not thought out mission, to ground assault an objective that could easily be destroyed by a bombing run. To put it into real world context, it would be like the Japanese trying to parachute troops onto battleship row at Pearl Harbor. I guess he's your "reluctant hero", but he's only semi-reluctant which makes his character feel almost bipolar. 

Yeah... I guess its more of an arc than what Poe got. He is easily the worst character in the trilogy. He goes form hotshot, kind of an a-hole pilot, to whimpering moron of a commander. 

Edited by Jo Jo

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1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

Well... he doesn't have an arc so much as a wave. He goes from deserter that is trying to save his own skin, to standing up and fighting with Rey. To, I'm GTFO out of here, to then again helping the resistance and standing up to the bad guy. Then when he gets his ultimate moment to stand up to the FO itself and defy them to save his new found friends...its taken away from him. Its just kind of too abrupt of a turn in the course of what seems like maybe a day or two, going from him trying to save his own hide into I'll kamikaze into a big freaking laser to save everyone.

Then in ROS he isn't giving a whole lot to do except yell "Rey!" every so often, and he doesn't even get a chance to proclaim his puppy dog love for her (which I guess is what he was going to tell her). Then he is given the most absurd, not thought out mission, to ground assault an objective that could easily be destroyed by a bombing run. To put it into real world context, it would be like the Japanese trying to parachute troops onto battleship row at Pearl Harbor. I guess he's your "reluctant hero", but he's only semi-reluctant which makes his character feel almost bipolar. 

Yeah... I guess its more of an arc than what Poe got. He is easily the worst character in the trilogy. He goes form hotshot, kind of an a-hole pilot, to whimpering moron of a commander. 

Thanks for the clarification. I think the TFA and TLJ parts would count as arcs while it's just absent in ROS.

By the way, Finn was going to tell her that he's force sensitive, sadly no joke...

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That would have been something at least. Man, of 8 had been the arc of like training not one, but TWO new Jedi? Or even Gray's? That could have been some real stuff. 

I also didn't get any 'arc' per se out of him in 8 otherwise. Like, 7 is his realization of reality, and change of faction, Awakening you might say to New goals and possibilities for his abilities and life... And then the next day... He does it... Again?

Just another time where if you had used a blessed time skip, you could have at least gone back and inserted some events where he loses his way after a while and had to then figure it out a second time for new reasons. Poor Finn. I was really pulling for Boyega. Last time we were lucky enough to have a non-white main caster it was jarjar. And despite liking him myself he's still the butt end of a lot of ill will. Poor Ahmed.

Sad to hear Boyega still doesn't have anything in 9.

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4 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Sad to hear Boyega still doesn't have anything in 9.

I don't think that's fair to say.

There is truth to the jokes about Finn running around screaming, "Rey!" a lot, that happens repeatedly. But as I mentioned in another thread, I feel that Finn actually had a good completion of his character arc, comparing him in Ep. 7 to where he ended up in Ep 9. Finn progressed from being a deserter and a traitor wanting nothing more than to run and hide in terror of the First Order, including abandoning his friends, to leading an impromptu invasion of a First Order Command ship in an attempt to save his friend's life, and General leading Resistance forces into battle. There is certainly an argument that the tactic used (the cavalry charge) wasn't the  best option available to them, but it made for good spectacle compared to repeating a bombing run that we've seen before in Rogue One. I also found that the inclusion of the deserter legion was an interesting development for Finn, as it gave him some folks of a similar background to commiserate with, and know that he wasn't alone in his decision to betray the people he grew up with. He also has one of the best lines in the movie. 

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On 12/29/2019 at 5:07 AM, Dasharr said:

Intellectual property law requires IP holders to aggressively defend their IP from infringement, or they may be considered to tacitly surrender or weaken their ownership. George Lucas was being very generous by allowing Star Wars fan films to be made because of this; it doesn't follow that all IP holders should be as generous. I don't know if Disney has a track record of smacking down fan works with cease & desists, but anyone entrusted with an IP that cost over 4 billion dollars can hardly be blamed for being careful with it.

PS - the expression is "case in point" not case and point. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/a-case-in-point

The last part of your post is just spite - if Star Wars doesn't cater to what you want then you'd rather it died off.

The only thing $tar War$ caters to is Money.

Good Science Fiction franchises don't die off just because there is nothing new made. Dune has a new movie coming up, Firefly still has plenty of fans despite the best efforts of FOX. 

I don't want to see it die off, but I do think the mouse needs to be starved, instead you still contribute to the gluttony of the soulless media corporations that consume everything around. They don't want to make things good or what people want they want mindless people to consume "service" and then get excited for new "service".

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So wait... If Luke "cut himself off from the force," then why is he still dressing in full Jedi garb? 

I mean, a good half of the civilian population of Star Wars seem to be low-key cosplaying Jedi, but Luke's still going full-out? Didn't look like there were a TON of shopping malls on his island, but the natives are coming up with clothes...

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4 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

So wait... If Luke "cut himself off from the force," then why is he still dressing in full Jedi garb? 

He put it on to burn the tree, out of respect. He takes it off right after he met Rey, and only puts it on again to burn it when she leaves.

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4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

He put it on to burn the tree, out of respect. He takes it off right after he met Rey, and only puts it on again to burn it when she leaves.

That's right, I forgot there was a costume change in there.

Still a pretty weird thing to do, dress up like a Jedi just to "Nope" out.

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2 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

That's right, I forgot there was a costume change in there.

Still a pretty weird thing to do, dress up like a Jedi just to "Nope" out.

Is it? How many situations can you think of where people dress up for special occasions?

It's a rather weird thing to wonder about tbh

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is it? How many situations can you think of where people dress up for special occasions?

It's a rather weird thing to wonder about tbh

Well, is he cut off from the force or not? 

If he's cut off, how did he know Rey was coming to get all gussied up for her arrival? Or does he just dress up in his old robes every Thursday and it was just terrible timing?

If he knew Rey was coming, even though he's cut off, he HAS to know why, at least in the general sense - he's got to know she's looking for training or to pull him back into the fight. If he's got no interest and no intention of getting involved, why dress the part just to turn her away? (I'm fine with Johnson disrupting our expectations, or whatever, but if Luke's actively doing it too, that's kind of a **** move.)

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3 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

If he's cut off, how did he know Rey was coming to get all gussied up for her arrival? Or does he just dress up in his old robes every Thursday and it was just terrible timing?

I see you rather want to be riled up about something arbitrary, but if you actually care: he is cut off from the force and did not know Rey was coming. He didn't dress up for her. He dressed up to burn the tree, but delayed it due to Rey's arrival. That's the in universe explanation. Of course the actual explanation is likely that JJ had him dress in robes because, to JJ, that's what Jedi do and look like even if cut off. To Rian, that was apparently stupid as **** and hence he provided an in universe explanation.

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On 12/20/2019 at 1:39 AM, Sithborg said:

I understand the legitimate criticisms. And not every movie is for everyone. I personally hated Infinity War. 

TLJ is still my 2nd favorite Star Wars movie. 

Agree on both counts.

I relate so hard to hermit-Luke and everything he does in that film.  I wish Finn wasn't quite as "comic relief" but it remains the most inventive and original Star Wars film since 1980.

//

Infinity War was just three hours of misery, but also misery constructed in such a way that we know that it'll all get wiped out in a year, so what even is the point?  Sure, the team-up action is decent, but like most big crossover events in paper comic books, all the character development of the individual titles is wiped away to serve the needs of a giant story.  Coming off of Ragnarok?  Just yikes, man.  Peter Quill spent two films growing up, just to be a manchild again, because the Russos kind of only know one trick.

  • Winter Soldier (not my top 5, but really good): Let's blow up SHIELD!
  • Civil War (as Black Panther 0.5, it's great; as Cap 3 or Avengers 2.5?  I'm not sure it's held up...): Let's blow up the Avengers!
  • Infinity War: Let's blow up half of everything!
  • Endgame: Let's blow up the last movie!

I feel like Endgame did about as well as it could: it gave me the feels I wanted it to give me.  Is it a strong film?  I don't really think so.

On 12/23/2019 at 10:38 PM, KCDodger said:

I have long said that The Last Jedi will be looked upon kindly.

Rise of Skywalker let down every promise of the Sequel Trilogy, and I do mean every single promise. Bitter, hateful men behind keyboards wrested the star wars trilogy back in their filthy hands.

And what do we have?

We have an apology as our final Skywalker film.

I am beyond angry about it.

Oh god.  ROS was such trash.  I don't think I've ever been more disappointed at a Star War.  It wasn't even all that exciting (because it spent so much effort trying to undo everything that was great about TLJ), and was so incredibly lazy throughout.  Like, the McGuffin is a map... which leads to a second map.  Wasn't there just a map in TFA?  Wasn't there just a secret army that Palpatine put together in AotC?

//

I've started to have this sense that TLJ was an onion.  It's a strong flavor, not to everyone's taste.  But it's got layers to it, and it gets really sweet when you cook it low and slow.  My appreciation of TLJ has only gone up over time.  Rian Johnson pays off all his set-ups (can't wait for Knives Out to hit Redbox).  At first, I didn't like it as much as TFA (which beautiful, but a little empty.  A fine appetizer, but not a meal.  If ROS had been as good as TLJ, I wouldn't mind TFA being a bit superficial). 

  • The more time that's passed for me with ROS... it just keeps sinking.
    • I thought Billy Dee Williams stole all his scenes.
    • I liked that Finn "just knew stuff" through the Force.
    • Who isn't going to like Babu Frick?
    • But that's about it.
  • Where's the fascinating and extra Emo Ren, who was glorious and interesting because of his fundamental weakness?  JJ and Terrio didn't give Adam Driver anything to work with.  Reminds me of Natalie Portman in the Prequels.
  • Meanwhile, the "critique" of TLJ that it ignored TFA's character development is like... 50x stronger in ROS.
    • Poe learned to be responsible?  Nope, that's gone, now he's got an edge past as a drug runner (itself sketchy, since now one of the three biggest Latino actors in Star Wars is now a drug smuggler).
    • Rey learned to stop caring about her past, and that her found family was what was important.
    • Finn and Rose?  Well, the film ends with Finn doing... exactly what Rose stopped him from doing in TLJ, and this time Rose just lets it happen.
  • Because the film spent so much effort on location and travel, I'm actually annoyed with the major plot holes around transportation.  How does Luke's X-Wing even work (one wing from it was one of his doors on his hut, right?)?  How does Kylo get off the Endor Moon/Death Star ruins?
    • I try not to let little things like this bother me, but they do here, since they're so closely tied to what's essentially the key action of the movie.

But I'm overall trying to keep my ROS feelings pretty light, pretty jokey.  Like, here's my definitive statement on ROS:

//

[Expecting things only leads to disappointment] is why I enjoyed Jupiter Ascending more than Rise of Skywalker.

source.gif

I mean...

tumblr_inline_o4u4ipm3rn1r4pwpm_500.gif

Does Adam Driver play a space-werewolf with anti-gravity rollerblades?  No?

gravity-boots-jupiter-ascending-.gif

Checkmate, Sheev.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I see you rather want to be riled up about something arbitrary, but if you actually care: he is cut off from the force and did not know Rey was coming. He didn't dress up for her. He dressed up to burn the tree, but delayed it due to Rey's arrival. That's the in universe explanation. Of course the actual explanation is likely that JJ had him dress in robes because, to JJ, that's what Jedi do and look like even if cut off. To Rian, that was apparently stupid as **** and hence he provided an in universe explanation.

Riled up, lol. I see you'd rather bend over backwards to fit it all together, but if you actually care:

There's literally no support for this in the movies. There's no indication that JJ had any intention of having him be cut off. There's no indication that he was headed for the tree when Rey showed up.

Johnson wanted to take the story in a completely different direction from the set-up, which is fine, this was just clumsy.

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20 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

Riled up, lol. I see you'd rather bend over backwards to fit it all together, but if you actually care:

I can't take credit for that.

21 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

There's literally no support for this in the movies. There's no indication that JJ had any intention of having him be cut off.

I didn't say JJ had. I said he put Luke into the costume because that's what Jedis wear.

I don't know why you think that there is even a discussion to be had. You had a question and there is a clear and unambiguous answer to it. Whether you like it or not does not matter. At all.

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4 hours ago, NotBatman said:

Riled up, lol. I see you'd rather bend over backwards to fit it all together, but if you actually care:

There's literally no support for this in the movies. There's no indication that JJ had any intention of having him be cut off. There's no indication that he was headed for the tree when Rey showed up.

Johnson wanted to take the story in a completely different direction from the set-up, which is fine, this was just clumsy.

There is a support to this claim in the movie, it’s just not obvious and still open to interpretation.

When Luke goes to burn the tree once Rey has left, he puts the robes back on.

The first thing he does after meeting Rey is go to remove the robes, as if he was only wearing them for a particular reason. Since we know he is closed from the Force and had no idea Rey was coming, I think it makes sense to believe he was about to go burn the tree.

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9 hours ago, Red Castle said:

There is a support to this claim in the movie, it’s just not obvious and still open to interpretation.

When Luke goes to burn the tree once Rey has left, he puts the robes back on.

The first thing he does after meeting Rey is go to remove the robes, as if he was only wearing them for a particular reason. Since we know he is closed from the Force and had no idea Rey was coming, I think it makes sense to believe he was about to go burn the tree.

Bit of a stretch, really.

Maybe he's just got the two sets of clothes with him?  Occam's Razor and all that; it's not as though there's a Hot Topic just down the hill he can pop into.

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6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Bit of a stretch, really.

I think it's a stretch only if you actively don't want to believe it. But regardless, it's the reason why, as shown in the novelisation of 'The Last Jedi':

''He'd donned the robes and taken up the torch before, only to falter and lose his resolve. Luke wasn't sure why, exactly. He supposed it was because he had spent so many years crossing the galaxy with R2-D2 as his companion, searching obsessively for ancient lore and a current purpose, at the cost of everything else. When he consigned the library to the flames, he would be consigning everything he had done since Endor with it. Vanity, again - but time after time, it had prevented him from taking that final step. In fact, Rey had arrived on the island after a failed attempt had left him brooding in the meadow, trying to summon the will to try again.''

 

Now since he was trying to summon the will to go burn the tree when Rey arrived, it explains his overreaction when the young girl out of nowhere solemny handed him his old lightsaber. Must have felt like a **** move from the universe testing his resolve to go destroy everything.

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On 1/10/2020 at 3:42 PM, Red Castle said:

I think it's a stretch only if you actively don't want to believe it. But regardless, it's the reason why, as shown in the novelisation of 'The Last Jedi':

Now, since he was trying to summon the will to go burn the tree when Rey arrived, it explains his overreaction when the young girl out of nowhere solemny handed him his old lightsaber. Must have felt like a **** move from the universe testing his resolve to go destroy everything.

That's some great context, it's a shame it was totally absent from the film.  I guess Ruin doesn't believe in show OR tell LOL.

As far as the film goes, Luke only having two sets of clothes makes more sense.  There's only so much luggage space in an X-Wing.

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