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Benny89

Min-maxing Gunslinger possible?

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7 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

1. Yes. Supreme Double or Nothing is obscenely good. 

2. Stay at 2. One point of soak won't make a huge difference since you'll probably be going first every engagement anyway. 

Thanks. One lat question- how do you feel about defensive side of Gunslinger? I am opting for Scoundler or even Assassin just to stack 2x Side Step or with Assassin - stack up x3 Dodge total. Have you ever felt that 1x Dodge of Gunslinger is not enough for him?

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Just now, Benny89 said:

Yeah we like to advance fast, table enjoys getting new tools and toys :) and enjoyment is most important!

Yeah, I accidentally may have given my PCs ~60K credits in one mission. Entirely unintentionally. (I need to think these things through better :D)

Quick advancement is fun. I've run into issues with my in-person games where they happen so rarely that even though they advance at a rate of about 5 XP per hour, which is a little bit faster than yours, they max out at around 20 XP per saession generally and the games happen so rarely that the progression feels very slow.

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3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, I accidentally may have given my PCs ~60K credits in one mission. Entirely unintentionally. (I need to think these things through better :D)

Quick advancement is fun. I've run into issues with my in-person games where they happen so rarely that even though they advance at a rate of about 5 XP per hour, which is a little bit faster than yours, they max out at around 20 XP per saession generally and the games happen so rarely that the progression feels very slow.

Yeah, slow progression really kills joy of game, especially if you can play only 1 per 2 weeks max. Unless you play like every week, I am always on fast progression side. Especially at the beginning it gives more hooks for players when they unlock early stuff fsater.

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1 minute ago, Benny89 said:

Yeah, slow progression really kills joy of game, especially if you can play only 1 per 2 weeks max. Unless you play like every week, I am always on fast progression side. Especially at the beginning it gives more hooks for players when they unlock early stuff fsater.

Yeah, and by rarely I mean more like: They might happen once every month or two. 😞 For me it's more the slow progression of the story, but I've always enjoyed getting new shinies* and being able to do more cool stuff.

Hey, at least I can PbP now!

*This also applies to giving new shinies, as I generally play as a GM. If the PCs have more cool stuff and abilities, I can throw more cool stuff at them.

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2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, and by rarely I mean more like: They might happen once every month or two. 😞 For me it's more the slow progression of the story, but I've always enjoyed getting new shinies* and being able to do more cool stuff.

Hey, at least I can PbP now!

*This also applies to giving new shinies, as I generally play as a GM. If the PCs have more cool stuff and abilities, I can throw more cool stuff at them.

Yup, and they also can do more cool stuff and scenes and since it should be "cinematic story" - more cool stuff lead to more cool things to happen :)

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Just now, Benny89 said:

Yup, and they also can do more cool stuff and scenes and since it should be "cinematic story" - more cool stuff lead to more cool things to happen :)

Once I found the rules for Heroic-level play, I never looked back. Every one of the campaigns I've run or played since then has started at Heroic-level.

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4 hours ago, Benny89 said:

Thanks. One lat question- how do you feel about defensive side of Gunslinger? I am opting for Scoundler or even Assassin just to stack 2x Side Step or with Assassin - stack up x3 Dodge total. Have you ever felt that 1x Dodge of Gunslinger is not enough for him?

I don't like Dodge at all. It only covers the one attack, and just upgrades the difficulty. Either Side Step or nothing, imo. 

 

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2 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

I don't like Dodge at all. It only covers the one attack, and just upgrades the difficulty. Either Side Step or nothing, imo. 

 

I actually prefer Dodge, as it doesn't eat a maneuver and works against both ranged and melee, but if you are getting hit by multiple attacks per round Sidestep/Defensive stance can be easier on the old strain treshold, but not by much if you still want to take that maneuver.

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14 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I actually prefer Dodge, as it doesn't eat a maneuver and works against both ranged and melee, but if you are getting hit by multiple attacks per round Sidestep/Defensive stance can be easier on the old strain treshold, but not by much if you still want to take that maneuver.

From mechanical/math stand point which one is better- Side Step or Dodge? Lets say you have x2 for each.

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3 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

From mechanical/math stand point which one is better- Side Step or Dodge? Lets say you have x2 for each.

Depends.

Against melee - Side step does nothing, so Dodge is better.

Against a single ranged attack - Dodge doesn't cost a maneuver, and as it's activated the moment you are attacked you don't risk "wasting" it if no-one attacks you.

Against 2 ranged attacks - About even. The strain cost for taking an extra maneuver is the same as dodging an extra time. Still, as Dodge lets you upgrade two attacks AND take 2 maneuvers and an action (while splurging strain like a madman) it still has a slight edge, by being more flexible.

Against 3 or more attacks in a single round - sidestep is clearly better.

Of course, you can, of course, stack dodge on top of Sidestep...

Both eat a lot of strain though, and as a gunslinger, you need that strain for Guns Blazing. If you don't get a spec with True Aim though, you can probably forgo aiming at all, and spend your free maneuver on sidestep making it slightly more strain-economical even at 2 attacks per round.

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13 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Depends.

Against melee - Side step does nothing, so Dodge is better.

Against a single ranged attack - Dodge doesn't cost a maneuver, and as it's activated the moment you are attacked you don't risk "wasting" it if no-one attacks you.

Against 2 ranged attacks - About even. The strain cost for taking an extra maneuver is the same as dodging an extra time. Still, as Dodge lets you upgrade two attacks AND take 2 maneuvers and an action (while splurging strain like a madman) it still has a slight edge, by being more flexible.

Against 3 or more attacks in a single round - sidestep is clearly better.

Of course, you can, of course, stack dodge on top of Sidestep...

Both eat a lot of strain though, and as a gunslinger, you need that strain for Guns Blazing. If you don't get a spec with True Aim though, you can probably forgo aiming at all, and spend your free maneuver on sidestep making it slightly more strain-economical even at 2 attacks per round.

This is what I am considering. The whole point of gunslinger is to go first and burst as much damage as possible. So it's between stacking more True Aims/Lethal Blows etc. and just go with "eliminate as much of a threat as possible in first turn" vs "stack more defense so after first turn you are not defensless".

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Scoundler would be about maximing that first draw (extra rapid reaction) with 2x Side Step in case.

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Assassin would be to maximize the first round burst with absurd amount of Lethal Blows + True Aims to crit as much as possible in first turn. We also get 3x Dodge here for defense. And we still get our additional Quick Strike here.

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Gambler would be for maximizing the amount of shots (if we iclude Linked 1 for both blaster + Paired Weapons") in first turn with Double of Nothing.



I am leaning right now towards Gunslinger/Sharpshoote/Assassin and focus on first turn Crits. I also get here 3x Dodge, 2x True Aim, 3x Sniper Shot, 7x Lethal Blows, 2x Precise Aim, Targeted Blow. Using 2x Hair Trigger, Paired Weapon + 2x Bantha Sight + 2x Tinkerer (from my friend technician) + 2x Superior mod should net me enough advantages to shoot 4 times anyway.

 

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46 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

This is what I am considering. The whole point of gunslinger is to go first and burst as much damage as possible. So it's between stacking more True Aims/Lethal Blows etc. and just go with "eliminate as much of a threat as possible in first turn" vs "stack more defense so after first turn you are not defensless".

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Scoundler would be about maximing that first draw (extra rapid reaction) with 2x Side Step in case.

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Assassin would be to maximize the first round burst with absurd amount of Lethal Blows + True Aims to crit as much as possible in first turn. We also get 3x Dodge here for defense. And we still get our additional Quick Strike here.

Gunslinger/Sharpshooter/Gambler would be for maximizing the amount of shots (if we iclude Linked 1 for both blaster + Paired Weapons") in first turn with Double of Nothing.



I am leaning right now towards Gunslinger/Sharpshoote/Assassin and focus on first turn Crits. I also get here 3x Dodge, 2x True Aim, 3x Sniper Shot, 7x Lethal Blows, 2x Precise Aim, Targeted Blow. Using 2x Hair Trigger, Paired Weapon + 2x Bantha Sight + 2x Tinkerer (from my friend technician) + 2x Superior mod should net me enough advantages to shoot 4 times anyway.

 

Sidestep is worse for maximizing attacks, as it eats an maneuver that could've been spent aiming. Dodge is better to have "just in case".

Gunslinger/sharpshooter/Assassin is pretty much a pure murder machine with very little width outside that and sneaking. It also has a total of 4(!) ranks of Deadly Accuracy meaning you can get it for both Ranged (light) and (heavy), as well as melee and brawl, allowing you to be able to do decent damage with fists or a backup knife if you sink some points into the skills. Lethal Blows stack very well with vibroblades, and they're nice options for quieter kills than blasters.

Although, be aware that you will have a huge and obvious achilles heel; strain. While 5 ranks of grit is nice, you will be burning it like crazy with Guns Blazing and to take a second maneuver if you want to do anything besides aiming. with 2 ranks of toughness you can't exactly soak up damage either, so dodge will eat even more strain. If you go in at full strength, your strain will last for about three rounds. If you've taken any strain damage (likely) it might be less.

Sure, you can nail two targets per round and most likely murderize them, but that might not be quick enough. Be wary of stun damage and people with scathing tirade ranting at you from out of sight. You're a one-trick pony and have very few options if that trick is countered. You should probably avoid fights where you're not confident that you'll be going first and that nothing opposing will be left standing when your turn is over. If it is, all fire will be focused on you, and you won't last long. Even with Dodge 3, the difficulty of hitting you at short range is still just two reds, a shot a single minion stormtrooper has a decent chance of making. 10+ wound damage is really bad for your character. 10+ strain is even worse.

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20 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Sidestep is worse for maximizing attacks, as it eats an maneuver that could've been spent aiming. Dodge is better to have "just in case".

Gunslinger/sharpshooter/Assassin is pretty much a pure murder machine with very little width outside that and sneaking. It also has a total of 4(!) ranks of Deadly Accuracy meaning you can get it for both Ranged (light) and (heavy), as well as melee and brawl, allowing you to be able to do decent damage with fists or a backup knife if you sink some points into the skills. Lethal Blows stack very well with vibroblades, and they're nice options for quieter kills than blasters.

Although, be aware that you will have a huge and obvious achilles heel; strain. While 5 ranks of grit is nice, you will be burning it like crazy with Guns Blazing and to take a second maneuver if you want to do anything besides aiming. with 2 ranks of toughness you can't exactly soak up damage either, so dodge will eat even more strain. If you go in at full strength, your strain will last for about three rounds. If you've taken any strain damage (likely) it might be less.

Sure, you can nail two targets per round and most likely murderize them, but that might not be quick enough. Be wary of stun damage and people with scathing tirade ranting at you from out of sight. You're a one-trick pony and have very few options if that trick is countered. You should probably avoid fights where you're not confident that you'll be going first and that nothing opposing will be left standing when your turn is over. If it is, all fire will be focused on you, and you won't last long. Even with Dodge 3, the difficulty of hitting you at short range is still just two reds, a shot a single minion stormtrooper has a decent chance of making. 10+ wound damage is really bad for your character. 10+ strain is even worse.

Yeah, but still it's hard to get higher Strain or WT on Gunslinger, even if I would pack into Enforcer or something - it won't make much difference. My best bet will be to stack some Defenses on Armor (2 from Armor, 3 from some mod) and Soak from armor and cybernetics later to compensate for that. 5 ranks of Grit will still be nie. I plan to start with 14 Strain, so 19 Strain will still be nice. Starting with Brawn 3 + decent armor will give me soak 4, upgrading it later with some Implant Armor and some mods should put me later in range of 6-8 soak.

Generally I plan to avoid fight unless I need to, as my Gunslinger is lets like Vash from Trigun (if you are familliar). Someone who knows how deadly he is, but does not enjoy hurting others unless it's necessery. But when he has to fight - well then, there goes the typhoon.

At least that's the concept.

 

  

2 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

With spitfire and the hair trigger attachment you could hit up to 4 targets a round.

 

Yeah, that is what I am planning. Hair Triggers, Paired Weapons, Spitfire and going for that crits and burst in my first turn.

Edited by Benny89

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8 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

With spitfire and the hair trigger attachment you could hit up to 4 targets a round.

Nope. 4 hits total on 2 separate targets.

6 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

Yeah, but still it's hard to get higher Strain or WT on Gunslinger, even if I would pack into Enforcer or something - it won't make much difference. My best bet will be to stack some Defenses on Armor (2 from Armor, 3 from some mod) and Soak from armor and cybernetics later to compensate for that. 5 ranks of Grit will still be nie. I plan to start with 14 Strain, so 19 Strain will still be nice. Starting with Brawn 3 + decent armor will give me soak 4, upgrading it later with some Implant Armor and some mods should put me later in range of 6-8 soak.

Generally I plan to avoid fight unless I need to, as my Gunslinger is lets like Vash from Trigun (if you are familliar). Someone who knows how deadly he is, but does not enjoy hurting others unless it's necessery. But when he has to fight - well then, there goes the typhoon.

At least that's the concept.

What I'm saying is that your combo, even at 1000+ xp, still can't blast through any encounter (very few builds can) and has next to nothing to fall back on. Be very afraid of opponents like charmers and diplomats that can effectively nullify your entire combat portfolio.

Two pure combat specs makes you dangerous. Three makes you dangerously overspecialized. I'd drop one for something with more utility. You'll be plenty dangerous anyway.

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1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

Nope. 4 hits total on 2 separate targets.

What I'm saying is that your combo, even at 1000+ xp, still can't blast through any encounter (very few builds can) and has next to nothing to fall back on. Be very afraid of opponents like charmers and diplomats that can effectively nullify your entire combat portfolio.

Two pure combat specs makes you dangerous. Three makes you dangerously overspecialized. I'd drop one for something with more utility. You'll be plenty dangerous anyway.

Thanks for suggestion. Hm, maybe then Gunslinger/Assassin/Gambler. Gamber talents can boost anything, including social checks. Or Charmer....


If you were to chose between Sharpshooter and Assassin as your second spec for Gunslinger- which one would you chose? Please answer from pure min-max perspective. True Aim x2 is soo good, but so is Assassin 2x Dodge, Quick Strike and extra Lethal Blows. Both get Targeted Blow, SS gives 2x Sniper Shot, Assassin x1. SS seems like more offensive power and Assassin mixes in some nice defensive, like Dodge x2, better Stealth (already high Agility Character) and ability to stand from prone.

 

For third spec I will see once I max my second. I will consider some social one.

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4 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

Thanks for suggestion. Hm, maybe then Gunslinger/Assassin/Gambler. Gamber talents can boost anything, including social checks. Or Charmer....


If you were to chose between Sharpshooter and Assassin as your second spec for Gunslinger- which one would you chose? Please answer from pure min-max perspective. True Aim x2 is soo good, but so is Assassin 2x Dodge, Quick Strike and extra Lethal Blows. Both get Targeted Blow, SS gives 2x Sniper Shot, Assassin x1. SS seems like more offensive power and Assassin mixes in some nice defensive, like Dodge x2, better Stealth (already high Agility Character) and ability to stand from prone.

 

For third spec I will see once I max my second. I will consider some social one.

Sharpshooters are built to stop, take aim and hit anything at any range. Assassins are built to make anything they hit die.

If you want to capitalize on what the Gunslinger does, go Assassin and focus on devastating crits from relatively short ranges. This build isn't very dependent on using maneuvers, keeping it mobile and quite capable of using gear like stimpacks with little interference.

A sharpshooter is almost too good a sniper to focus on just pistols, but will score hits more reliably if they stop and aim.

With Deadly Accuracy you will want max your skill as soon as possible anyway, so the lack of true aim won't matter as much. I'd go with Assassin. Sure, you might miss the occasional adversary, but a lot more often you will go first, land a +50 crit, and dodge the return fire.

The lack of defensive options makes the sharpshooter more comfortable at range.

 

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5 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Sharpshooters are built to stop, take aim and hit anything at any range. Assassins are built to make anything they hit die.

If you want to capitalize on what the Gunslinger does, go Assassin and focus on devastating crits from relatively short ranges. This build isn't very dependent on using maneuvers, keeping it mobile and quite capable of using gear like stimpacks with little interference.

A sharpshooter is almost too good a sniper to focus on just pistols, but will score hits more reliably if they stop and aim.

With Deadly Accuracy you will want max your skill as soon as possible anyway, so the lack of true aim won't matter as much. I'd go with Assassin. Sure, you might miss the occasional adversary, but a lot more often you will go first, land a +50 crit, and dodge the return fire.

The lack of defensive options makes the sharpshooter more comfortable at range.

 

I find true aim really shines along with the mod that lets you aim as incidental. With true aim you rarely aim twice as you get most of the pay off up front on the first aim, so you aren’t sacrificing much to never spend a manouver aiming. I love anything in this game that downgrades actions or manouvers as it really helps action economy.

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21 minutes ago, Darzil said:

I find true aim really shines along with the mod that lets you aim as incidental. With true aim you rarely aim twice as you get most of the pay off up front on the first aim, so you aren’t sacrificing much to never spend a manouver aiming. I love anything in this game that downgrades actions or manouvers as it really helps action economy.

Kind of redundant isn't it? True Aim is it's own maneuver and it gives you the benefit of basic aiming on top of the  upgrade benefit. Best you can get is an extra boost for the incidental aim. Not knocking it, a boost is a boost, but seems like some other attachments may be better suited. But, if it works, it works.

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