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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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8 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...yeah, like wanting to murder your nephew while he sleeps because of "a feeling".  We've all been there, am I right?

Almost took the bait. I get it, you're such a good fan that you clearly identify Luke's reaction as out of character.

But here you're just - once more - trolling. Hopefully you do know that Luke didn't go in to murder him. If you really don't get it then there's nothing to reason you out of a position you didn't reason yourself into in the first place.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Almost took the bait. I get it, you're such a good fan that you clearly identify Luke's reaction as out of character.

But here you're just - once more - trolling. Hopefully you do know that Luke didn't go in to murder him. If you really don't get it then there's nothing to reason you out of a position you didn't reason yourself into in the first place.

What do you mean "Almost"?  😂 🤣

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You are one of those who really needed the lessons of TLJ. So sad that you can't.

The lessons of TLJ? The lesson I should hide away on an island feeling sorry for myself while the evil I put into the galaxy destroys planets? The lesson you shouldn't bother fighting because evil is just going to come back? Nihilism is not a lesson.

Edited by Frimmel

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1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

The lessons of TLJ? The lesson I should hide away on an island feeling sorry for myself while the evil I put into the galaxy destroys planets? 

Same for you, obvious trolling is obvious. Unless of course you fail that much at movies 🤷🏻‍♂️

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6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Same for you, obvious trolling is obvious. Unless of course you fail that much at movies 🤷🏻‍♂️

Who is trolling? I have been saying that for however long it is since TLJ came out. I'm angry JJ used Luke as a maguffin. Then Johnson has him hiding out of self-pity. I have never been so angry in a movie as I was in TLJ. 

Edited by Frimmel

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1 minute ago, Maui. said:

Amazing. Even a Rise of Skywalker hate thread devolves into pointless bickering about TLJ

Because the misconception is that TLJ did not correctly use all the preparations pf TFA (spoiler: the box was empty), and in turn did not set up enough for ROS. Both are ludicrous excuses, but mean that anyone disliking ROS can lazily point at TLJ and go back to the same boring old pattern.

And then there are those who are just trolling and deserve nothing more than an advertisement of the ignore function.

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Overall, I liked the movie.

It did feel a bit rushed, but it had to make up ground from the previous episode not really moving the story forward at all and instead throwing out everything the episode before that had established. There were a few moments that I think were a bit over the top, like Papa Palp using force lightning against an entire fleet, but alright, I can roll with that; ancient Sith Temples on unusual planets and all that. The collateral damage from Palpatine's death killing off all the Sith was also a bit too convenient, but I can let it slide. They were just window dressing. Honestly, I think the scene would have been better without them present at all, and without Palp explaining things out loud to them (and the other audience). 

I think it does have the best lightsaber duel of the series between Rey and Kylo on the water. That is one thing I have to give JJ is that they made the lightsaber duels in TFA and RoS much more visceral, more dirty, more real than other episodes by how they affect the environment, how it effects combatants, the obvious exhaustion occurring over time. It was very reminiscent of the Luke v Vader fight of Empire which is way up there for me. TLJ's throne room battle doesn't hold up upon re-watch, much like many of the Prequel's fights, being too flashy and as you can see obvious problems with the choreography by just focusing on what individuals are doing instead of taking in the fight as a whole, and once you've seen it, you can't unsee it, much like the infamous Luke kick of RotJ

I liked some of the new worlds they added, but unfortunately one of the more interesting ones got blown the **** up, but there is some room to work with that with series like Resistance and maybe finding out more about Poe's background. Zorii Bliss was an interesting addition and I think there is something they could do there. As well Jannah and the deserters. There are more stories that could be told. 

I also liked General Pryde. It was good to see an Imperial loyalist taking charge and his handling of Hux and his interactions with Palpatine nailed what I would expect of a Sith Officer. The Sith do not suffer weakness to exist in leadership, much like how Vader dealt with failures in command, Pryde personally dealt with Hux. 

It had some misteps, but overall I was very entertained by it, it grew the universe with more additions than it took away, and wrapped up the story of the Skywalker bloodline with a nice bow, so now the universe can go in other directions. 

 

Edited by kris40k

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13 hours ago, kris40k said:

I also liked General Pryde. It was good to see an Imperial loyalist taking charge and his handling of Hux and his interactions with Palpatine nailed what I would expect of a Sith Officer. The Sith do not suffer weakness to exist in leadership, much like how Vader dealt with failures in command, Pryde personally dealt with Hux.

Pryde was one of my favourite bits, too.

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On 12/29/2019 at 7:47 AM, GreenDragoon said:

Because the misconception is that TLJ did not correctly use all the preparations pf TFA (spoiler: the box was empty), and in turn did not set up enough for ROS. Both are ludicrous excuses, but mean that anyone disliking ROS can lazily point at TLJ and go back to the same boring old pattern.

And then there are those who are just trolling and deserve nothing more than an advertisement of the ignore function.

You are missing where I'm coming from with this. I hate both TFA and TLJ. I saw the problems with act one i.e. TFA in the first previews. 

Yes. The TFA mystery boxes were empty. JJ never has anything to put in the box. I've talked about this a bunch and I think you were the one who pointed us at the Film Crit Hulk piece about Text versus Texture which pretty clearly told us why that is. JJ wants to zig when everyone thinks he's going to zag. If he puts something in the box he makes it harder on himself to just do whatever is surprising or shocking or unexpected. 

However, that doesn't mean TLJ couldn't put something in the box. Johnson was handed a threadbare and lazy setup. No argument there. Despite all the "bleh" in TFA Rey, Chewie, and R2 finding Luke seems a pretty good place to start a Star Wars story. A story that "feels" like "Star Wars." You know that story don't you? The one where the boy from the desert leaves to learn the ways of The Force from the old man past his prime who was betrayed by the things he served but who didn't give in to bitterness and cynicism. The old man the boy had sought out. The old man who didn't hesitate to get up and go despite being to old for that sort of thing. 

With Rey finding Luke he has the chance to give us an ongoing master and student relationship. He had the chance to do all the sorts of things that JJ couldn't bother with regarding The Force. He can give us rules and a framework. He could make Rey earn something. He had the chance to get away from their lazy Act 1. He had a chance to make it Rey's story. To make Kylo an intimidating and scary villain. To give us Luke and Leia as wise mentors. He had a chance to get away from the trilogy format. He had a chance to make a new act one.  

Johnson threw that away. 

Johnson is cut from the same cloth as JJ. He's a better film-maker (leaving aside how bad Abrams stories are JJ's films are painful to watch for me and while I hated TLJ I could at least stand to try and look at it) and Johnson at least doesn't seem to go against his own rules. But "subverting expectations" is just a fancy way of saying "zig for the sake of zigging when folks think you're going to zag." 

I'm not trolling here. I care about these stories. I'm not just trying to wind folks up here. The only fiction I've put more time into than Star Wars is Star Trek. I'd also like to point out I was the projectionist at an art-house cinema for twenty years. 

 

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The boxes were supposed to be empty to begin with, they are plot points or hooks purposely left open that Johnson could have developed however he wanted, but decided to say, "none of this matters" and throw it all away.

Its like when you are playing volleyball in school with someone that doesn't want to be there: one player sets the ball for someone to spike and the other player... does nothing and lets it fall to the ground.

*cue sad trombone*

Edited by kris40k

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2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Johnson threw that away. 

Johnson is cut from the same cloth as JJ.

On 12/29/2019 at 1:36 PM, Frimmel said:

The lessons of TLJ? The lesson I should hide away on an island feeling sorry for myself while the evil I put into the galaxy destroys planets? The lesson you shouldn't bother fighting because evil is just going to come back? Nihilism is not a lesson.

 

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I'm not trolling here. I care about these stories.

Yeah... no.

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1 hour ago, kris40k said:

The boxes were supposed to be empty to being with, they are plot points or hooks purposely left open that Johnson could have developed however he wanted, but decided to say, "none of this matters" and throw it all away.

Its like when you are playing volleyball in school with someone that doesn't want to be there: one player sets the ball for someone to spike and the other player... does nothing and lets it fall to the ground.

*cue sad trombone*

giphy.gif

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8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Pryde was one of my favourite bits, too.

 

But he only exists because the previous movie had turned Hux into a complete joke.  

 

Having finally seen the movie I feel like I was beaten into submission by it. So much was thrown at me that its hard to even evaluate how bad it truly was. There is just so much in the movie that was not explained properly or hand waved over that you can't even begin to feel comfortable with what you saw. The hectic pace is probably the only thing that saves it from being complete disaster, its both a blessing and a curse. When you actually think about what is going on with even the slightest amount of critical thinking, nothing holds up.  

There were a few things I liked (really only a few). The Leia send off... When Chewie reacted... 😥 and the Rey and Ben dynamic. They did a bit too much force trans phasing or whatever the heck its called but their fight might be the best of the saga. It was pure emotion. I doubt he'll even get nominated but Driver could get an award. He carries the movie and draws you in despite the ADHD pace of it trying its best to throw you out. Everything else is almost just noise. 

That's the best way I can describe this movie. A lot of noise. 

 

My only hope is that the powers that be at Disney look at this trilogy and actually learn something from it. Like, have a plan... Even if its a bad one, HAVE. A. FREAKING. PLAN. 

Edited by Jo Jo

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1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

When you actually think about what is going on with even the slightest amount of critical thinking, nothing holds up.  

Welcome to Star Wars :P

Ever since milky space and parsec arguments were a thing, Star Wars really doesn't hold up under critical thinking. Its just popcorn flicks about evil space wizards and young heroes with laser swords. 

 

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

My only hope is that the powers that be at Disney look at this trilogy and actually learn something from it. Like, have a plan... Even if its a bad one, HAVE. A. FREAKING. PLAN. 

 

I'm convinced that Finn is JJ's self-insert character in RoS:

Quote

Finn shouts that he never told Rey something important, then never brings it up again.

...

*the gang boards an enemy ISD*

Poe (to Finn) : Which way do we go?

Finn: I have no idea. Follow me.

 

Edited by kris40k

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2 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

 

But he only exists because the previous movie had turned Hux into a complete joke. 

That's something i hated too..  In the Original trilogy, it DOES seem some of the generals/admirals are competent..   Such as the one who actually assaulted hoth (in the AT-AT)..  But hux wasn't even a Caracture of incompetence, he was just a laughing stock.

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2 hours ago, kris40k said:

Welcome to Star Wars :P

Ever since milky space and parsec arguments were a thing, Star Wars really doesn't hold up under critical thinking. Its just popcorn flicks about evil space wizards and young heroes with laser swords. 

 

 

 

Of course it is all made of fantasy stuff, but at least play in the bounds of your established universe. This movie was JJ turned up to 11. His this looks cool but really doesn't make any darn sense, but hey it looks cool! 

 

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Oh on that note, Finn's "I have no idea. Follow me." line has to be my favorite line of the trilogy. It really wraps up Finn's character arc and growth. From his beginning as a deserter that wanted only to survive and get as far away from the First Order as possible, to leading a small team invading fully manned Star Destroyer to save the life of a friend without any hesitation; it was both funny and very appropriate. 

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7 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

Like, have a plan... Even if its a bad one, HAVE. A. FREAKING. PLAN. 

Bingo.

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

We got the Star Wars ending we deserved. 

Ouch.

11 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Johnson is cut from the same cloth as JJ. He's a better film-maker (leaving aside how bad Abrams stories are JJ's films are painful to watch for me and while I hated TLJ I could at least stand to try and look at it) and Johnson at least doesn't seem to go against his own rules. But "subverting expectations" is just a fancy way of saying "zig for the sake of zigging when folks think you're going to zag." 

I'm not trolling here. I care about these stories. I'm not just trying to wind folks up here. The only fiction I've put more time into than Star Wars is Star Trek. I'd also like to point out I was the projectionist at an art-house cinema for twenty years. 

I think I finally understand your point of view, thanks to this post, and I can respect your view more for it. I've not liked anything by JJ yet and I've yet to watch anything much from Johnson (TLJ my only sampling.)

Possibly the difference in our views is my expectation for Star Wars are probably significantly lower on a whole. I've got decades of bad Star Wars, clearly "good" has not been the draw. I'm looking for escapism. These do provide that, but are still deeply flawed that prevent getting the total draw in. Do I like these better than the Star Trek reboot films? Yes. Are they good movies? No. Can I enjoy moments within them? Yes.

I care about these stories, but I don't think I ever actually expected that they'd be good. I was probably burned too badly by Star Wars in the past to really expect it, but it's such a fascinating universe with so much potential I just keeping coming back anyway.

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