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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But you do understand that JJ put RJ in a horrible spot with that ending, right? Throwinging away the lightsaber (or any comic relief) was one of very few ways to get out of it.

While I have little respect for JJ having used Luke as a maguffin in the first place Johnson was hardly written into a corner with the ending of Force Awakens. 

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17 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

While I have little respect for JJ having used Luke as a maguffin in the first place Johnson was hardly written into a corner with the ending of Force Awakens. 

Let me tell you how I see the ending.

Two hours of mysteries about Luke, all the hardships that Rey and the others had to go through, after Han's death and barely any spoken word since. Rey arrives at Luke's mysterious, chosen place, the legendary origin of the Jedi Order, and the first temple. The music swells as Rey takes her final steps of the movie. Nothing is said for the last 3min or more! Just music as the movie reaches an immense climax. And finally, after 32 years, we get to see Lue again on the big screen!
Rey calls him to arms, literally, and we are left hanging on how he will react. So many open questions: is he her father? Does he already know her? The novel says he looks at her "knowingly" - but what does he know? No way to tell!

There is so much tension, I don't know when I've seen more in a cinema. Of course that changes when you watch it now. But back in 2015 it was incredible. Somehow that tension has to be solved. And there are several ways to do it:

  • Somehow ignore the tension with a time skip and not release it at all? That means we won't see the first meeting between Luke and Rey. So that's unthinkable. Unless we introduce flashbacks, which we have not seen in Starwars before the vision in TFA. Introducing new methods like flashbacks is a touchy subject, so also a rather unlikely way.
  • Somehow trying to recreate the tension and release it dramatically? That won't possibly work. You're not just trying to recreate those last 3 minutes, but also the entire movie of build up, and the past 10 years since Starwars on the screen, and finally past 32 years since Luke. Won't possibly work.
  • Somehow pop the tension and release it comically? The least problematic way, especially because the moment immediately told us so much about Luke. How he changed, how he stayed the same, how he will react to Rey's call to arms later on. The comic relief is used for character progression and drama development, not just for a cheap laugh.

What other ways do you see?

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22 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Somehow trying to recreate the tension and release it dramatically? That won't possibly work. You're not just trying to recreate those last 3 minutes, but also the entire movie of build up, and the past 10 years since Starwars on the screen, and finally past 32 years since Luke. Won't possibly work.

I would disagree. If the tension is there to be "popped" with - in my opinion - all the finesse and humour of a whoopee cushion - then it was still present. The tension of that moment was retained and frankly lasted from the end of when I saw The Force Awakens to the release of The Last Jedi - it didn'tneed recreating or building back up because it was still there.

 

 

I've actually got myself reading Dark Empire again, too - I forgot that "ancient lightsaber causing force visions" is originally from that, too.

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10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Let me tell you how I see the ending.

Two hours of mysteries about Luke, all the hardships that Rey and the others had to go through, after Han's death and barely any spoken word since. Rey arrives at Luke's mysterious, chosen place, the legendary origin of the Jedi Order, and the first temple. The music swells as Rey takes her final steps of the movie. Nothing is said for the last 3min or more! Just music as the movie reaches an immense climax. And finally, after 32 years, we get to see Lue again on the big screen!
Rey calls him to arms, literally, and we are left hanging on how he will react. So many open questions: is he her father? Does he already know her? The novel says he looks at her "knowingly" - but what does he know? No way to tell!

There is so much tension, I don't know when I've seen more in a cinema. Of course that changes when you watch it now. But back in 2015 it was incredible. Somehow that tension has to be solved. And there are several ways to do it:

  • Somehow ignore the tension with a time skip and not release it at all? That means we won't see the first meeting between Luke and Rey. So that's unthinkable. Unless we introduce flashbacks, which we have not seen in Starwars before the vision in TFA. Introducing new methods like flashbacks is a touchy subject, so also a rather unlikely way.
  • Somehow trying to recreate the tension and release it dramatically? That won't possibly work. You're not just trying to recreate those last 3 minutes, but also the entire movie of build up, and the past 10 years since Starwars on the screen, and finally past 32 years since Luke. Won't possibly work.
  • Somehow pop the tension and release it comically? The least problematic way, especially because the moment immediately told us so much about Luke. How he changed, how he stayed the same, how he will react to Rey's call to arms later on. The comic relief is used for character progression and drama development, not just for a cheap laugh.

What other ways do you see?

That is ridiculous. I do not expect new films to pick up at exactly the emotional beat the prior film left off on. No tension relief is needed because that tension was relieved two years prior upon walking out of the cinema. You're beginning from a false premise that TLJ should start on the emotional beat the prior film left off on which it already didn't do since Rey's bit with Luke is not first. That tension is already gone by the time we get to the island.

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7 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

 Every Star Destroyer being a Death Star feels excessive (though to be fair with the hard-on Sheev has for planetary destruction that is exactly what he would comission). Palpatines return felt way too abrupt and in a better planned trilogy it would have closed out the last movie.

Since we saw (via rogue one), Kybyr crystals getting mined to make the Death star's reactor/main lasers, WHERE the **** did palps, get all the crystals for THAT NUMBER OF super-lasers???

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11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The scene, not the movie.

That makes Grendel right then in there is nothing to "recreate" or "ignore." They only have to "ignore" it if it exists in which case it doesn't need build back up. You're arguing that the audience is in the same spot they were when last seeing Luke so they just keep telling the story from where they left off in the prior film. If they couldn't do that, it brings us back to not having a story going through all the films and that falls on all involved. 

 

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48 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The tension of that moment was retained and frankly lasted from the end of when I saw The Force Awakens to the release of The Last Jedi - it didn'tneed recreating or building back up because it was still there.

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

That makes Grendel right then in there is nothing to "recreate" or "ignore." They only have to "ignore" it if it exists in which case it doesn't need build back up. You're arguing that the audience is in the same spot they were when last seeing Luke so they just keep telling the story from where they left off in the prior film. If they couldn't do that, it brings us back to not having a story going through all the films and that falls on all involved.

The echo remains. We all remembered how tense it was, but it was impossible to get into the same emotional state. Which means any dramatic release was going to be disappointing. The route RJ took by, dare I say it, subverting the expectation and choosing a different way to release it, allowed him and us to move to the important bits of character development. Even better, as mentioned, he already used it to develop Luke and their relationship.

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8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The echo remains. We all remembered how tense it was, but it was impossible to get into the same emotional state. Which means any dramatic release was going to be disappointing. The route RJ took by, dare I say it, subverting the expectation and choosing a different way to release it, allowed him and us to move to the important bits of character development. Even better, as mentioned, he already used it to develop Luke and their relationship.

You know there is a comic story where a production of a play is going on. And one of the actors is talking to the writer and asking if he could sit on a pie because it would make the audience laugh and the writer reminds the actor it would also make the audience laugh if he were to break wind loudly. You don't laugh off your new heroine showing up for guidance to your original character who everyone was excited would be back in the new trilogy (that's the potential I hear all about in The Force Awakens right?) who has presumably gone into hiding for a reason other than feeling sorry for himself because any other thing would be disappointing. JJ and Johnson are cut from the same cloth. 

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5 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

You don't laugh off your new heroine showing up for guidance to your original character who everyone was excited would be back in the new trilogy (that's the potential I hear all about in The Force Awakens right?) who has presumably gone into hiding for a reason other than feeling sorry for himself because any other thing would be disappointing. JJ and Johnson are cut from the same cloth. 

Lucky then that it doesn't make fun of Rey, and that Luke has some very valuable lessons to teach.

I see there is nothing to discuss.

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23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The echo remains. We all remembered how tense it was, but it was impossible to get into the same emotional state. Which means any dramatic release was going to be disappointing. The route RJ took by, dare I say it, subverting the expectation and choosing a different way to release it, allowed him and us to move to the important bits of character development. Even better, as mentioned, he already used it to develop Luke and their relationship.

And yet, the comedy element was woefully misplaced and rubbed a lot of long time fans up the long way.

He could have started to develop Luke and Rey's relationship by simply - after a moment or two - having Luke thrust the lightsaber back into Rey's hands and walk away without another word - same effect, but increasing the tension and provoking questions.

The "comedy" in TLJ was misplaced to the point of being parody.

This entire conversation reminds me of the scene in Game of Thrones where Arya watches a comedic play based on the events of season one.  She was left confused and angry - angry at the playwright, and angry at those in the audience who drank the false narrative in laughed along.

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8

2 hours ago, LTuser said:

Since we saw (via rogue one), Kybyr crystals getting mined to make the Death star's reactor/main lasers, WHERE the **** did palps, get all the crystals for THAT NUMBER OF super-lasers???

Well that is one way to kill a planet, it doesn't need to be the only one. The visuals are very different, so it's reasonable to assume this isn't kyber-based tech.

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Hang on - people took Luke's over-the-shoulder toss of the lightsaber as comedy? I guess I may have grinned, but mostly I shared Rey's confused expression as my thoughts echoed her words: "Master Skywalker?!"

If it was humorous, it certainly wasn't as funny as Han's, "I've got it! I think I've got it!" from Return of the Jedi. What is with some fans - is Star Wars supposed to lack any levity at all?

P.S. Without the saber toss, how would we have gotten the shot of the porgs investigating said lightsaber? That was tense and adorable at the same time.

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11 hours ago, LTuser said:

Since we saw (via rogue one), Kybyr crystals getting mined to make the Death star's reactor/main lasers, WHERE the **** did palps, get all the crystals for THAT NUMBER OF super-lasers???

God knows. You could equally argue where he got the crew or industrial workers, since this planet is only accessible via magic whommy sith pyramids.

Especially since apparently the corporations in question are the same imperial loyalists who built the first order: it's not like the civil war era rebels who only knew what sienar systems was up to from the odd spying mission.

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10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

To resent Luke tossing his lightsaber means resenting his whole character arc in TLJ - which was one of the most beautiful parts of the movie for me.

That feels like an unfair premise: you can dislike an individual element of a story without disliking a whole narrative. Yes, Luke had to refuse to take the sabre but the scene as shown was not the only way to do that.

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2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

God knows. You could equally argue where he got the crew or industrial workers, since this planet is only accessible via magic whommy sith pyramids.

Especially since apparently the corporations in question are the same imperial loyalists who built the first order: it's not like the civil war era rebels who only knew what sienar systems was up to from the odd spying mission.

Good point.  According to Imperial Advisor's facts and figures, each of those Star Destroyers requires a crew of 27,000+.  And there's - what, a thousand of them?  That's 27,000,000+ personnel who either had to be based on the inshospitable-as-funk looking Exogul or recruited elsewhere and brought in.

Not to mention all the supplies and resources a population that size would require.

Unless all those Star Destroyers were actually unscrewed and dormant.

OK, Star Wars rarely stands up to serious scrutiny, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That feels like an unfair premise: you can dislike an individual element of a story without disliking a whole narrative. Yes, Luke had to refuse to take the sabre but the scene as shown was not the only way to do that.

This.  Luke was one of the few parts of The Last Jedi I actually enjoyed, And I'd argue 90% of the reason why was Mark Hamill's heartfelt, committed performanxe rather than the material he was given to work with.

He basically made chicken salad out of chicken s--t.

And if people enjoyed Luke's arc as it stands, imagine how they'd feel about it if he had competent material to work with.

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3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That feels like an unfair premise: you can dislike an individual element of a story without disliking a whole narrative. Yes, Luke had to refuse to take the sabre but the scene as shown was not the only way to do that.

It sets up his arc and tells us exactly where he stands with one single action. He is not who Rey - and we as audience, waiting 32 years - wanted him to be. He is instead who he had to be for the story, to teach us as audience and Rey as protagonist some important lessons.

We have grown up in the meantime, and so did Luke. With all the problems that adult life brings. At 20 years old, he jumped into an Xwing and blew up a death star. He pulled out a lightsaber and became a Jedi. But Old Man Luke is cranky, bitter, had made mistakes, and sees the weapon for the tool it is. There is so much more that could be said, but not from me.

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10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

We have grown up in the meantime, and so did Luke. With all the problems that adult life brings.

...yeah, like wanting to murder your nephew while he sleeps because of "a feeling".  We've all been there, am I right?

Edited by FTS Gecko

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Ooh! Ooh! I finally have a criticism of The Rise of Skywalker: weakest soundtrack of any of the Star Wars movie. I feel like the whole movie leans so heavily on nostalgia that the soundtrack had little new to offer. And what is new feels phoned in. I even like the Solo and Rogue One soundtracks better than this one.

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3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Ooh! Ooh! I finally have a criticism of The Rise of Skywalker: weakest soundtrack of any of the Star Wars movie. I feel like the whole movie leans so heavily on nostalgia that the soundtrack had little new to offer. And what is new feels phoned in. I even like the Solo and Rogue One soundtracks better than this one.

That's interesting.  I mean, I've heard nothing but praise for the score so far.  And despite thinking that Rogue One is the best Disney Star Wars film so far, I think the soundtrack is probably one of it's weakest features.

Meanwhile... SUDDENLY IT ALL MAKES SENSE!

 

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

That's interesting.  I mean, I've heard nothing but praise for the score so far.  And despite thinking that Rogue One is the best Disney Star Wars film so far, I think the soundtrack is probably one of it's weakest features.

Meanwhile... SUDDENLY IT ALL MAKES SENSE!

 

Well maybe I need to give it a third or fourth chance. So far, the new pieces sound more like Harry Potter than Star Wars. John Williams writes music like himself - shocker. Still, it just hasn't grabbed me yet.

The pieces "Stardust," "Your Father Would be Proud," "Hope," and "The Imperial Suite" are very strong tracks on the Rogue One soundtrack. They move me. "Farewell" on the soundtrack for The Rise of Skywalker comes close.

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4 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Ooh! Ooh! I finally have a criticism of The Rise of Skywalker: weakest soundtrack of any of the Star Wars movie. I feel like the whole movie leans so heavily on nostalgia that the soundtrack had little new to offer. And what is new feels phoned in. I even like the Solo and Rogue One soundtracks better than this one.

I find this comment amusing, because this is exactly my complaint, too. Only extended to the entire film rather than just the soundtrack.

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3 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

I find this comment amusing, because this is exactly my complaint, too. Only extended to the entire film rather than just the soundtrack.

I know right? Lol. As I was typing it I realized the irony that I loved the film, but disliked the soundtrack for the very reason many dislike the film itself. Shrug. Kylo fanboy here, so I was fully invested in the story.

As an aside, John Williams is fantastic, but James Newton Howard is a wizard when it comes to emotionally powerful music for the climax of the movies he has scored. Could be I was expecting something like that and was left a little disappointed.

It's also likely that after I've seen the movie a few times the score will become synonymous with the story, and I'll end up loving it.

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