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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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Saw it tonight.

Basically every leak I read a month ago was spot on so nothing really surprised me in terms of stupidity. But oh man was it stupid. They basically doubled down on the stupid from the first 2 which is impressive considering.

I liked the scene between Han and Ben, had a nice feel to it. I stepped out to refill my drink in the middle of the fight when Leia died so I dunno how that went down in terms of emotion.

I laughed out load a number of times, just offhand:

  • Rey throwing wood onto the burning ship
  • Snap getting blown up
  • Palpy shocking the whole fleet
  • Rey's avatar moment
  • Hux dying

Other things I found amusing:

  • Rose being a non character basically
  • Pryde was hyped up as something special and was nothing
  • Final Order
  • Chewie death fake out
  • THE HECKIN GOOD WOOKIE BOI GOT HIS MEDAL FINALLY

The run time was basically half justifying past plot points and half erasing TLJ ones which is also amusing. I didn't dislike this one, I'd rather watch it again than even consider watching TLJ again.

The dagger is the stupidest macguffin though. It must have been created after Endor by the Emperor or a minion so why did that alien even have it. Particularly since he knew how to get to Exegol already or at least that's what the droid said.

There will be more as remember it but overall I'm frustrated that there are these tidbits of good in the trilogy but they went three for three on ******* and made maybe 30 minutes of decent content.

Fire whoever writes dialogue.

The planet blowing up was good though, best explosion since RO.

Weren't the knights of Ren also part of lukes temple so why didn't they have lightsabers?

Edited by McFoy

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I just came back from watching the movie and I’m honestly surprised on just how awful the sequel trilogy is. TFA was uninspired, TLJ was just cringey, and TRoS  is just super duper lame.  
 
You can definitely tell just how bad JJ wanted to ignore TLJ with the whiplash inducing exposition dump that TRoS suffers from throughout beginning of the movie. It seriously felt like Ray William Johnson levels of jump cuts and rushing as the whole movie felt like it took copious amounts of speed beforehand and the high never stopped.  

I don’t know if the rumors about Disney not properly planning the trilogy beforehand is true, but I’ll be surprised if Disney did more then have a post it note that reads “do 3 Star Wars movies.” I’m just at a lost for words for how lame the new trilogy is really feels like Disney dropped the ball on the entire project.

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I wrote a rather lengthy post about how I feel about the sequel trilogy as a whole.  Then my router decided to shut itself off, and I lost it.

Which, as metaphors go is pretty appropriate... if a little bit on the nose.

Suffice to say, as far as the sequel trilogy went, there were diminishing returns as far as I was concerned.  This was the high point for me:

 

I mean, who didn't get chills watching that trailer?  I saw it at a showing of Spectre and literally couldn't breathe for the duration, sat there staring like an excited kid with a tear in my eye.

When the film dropped, I enjoyed the first half, but the second felt more like a reboot than a continuation of a story.  I was still hopeful, but a little disconcerted.

The Ruin decided it was time to "let the past die".  Unfortunately, instead of treating the franchise with respect and reverence, he killed it, apparently because he thought he had to.

Considering just how badly episode 8 divided the fandom, it was always going to be an uphill battle to end the series on a satisfactory note.  And when JJ decided to lean into the nostalgia beats and market the final episode as "the end of the Skywalker Saga" (something that had already ended in very satisfactory fashion decades ago), it was all over bar the inquest.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How can you think that this is the take away from episode 8? You don't take "let the hate flow through you" as theme for 6, so why this?

You can't deny that Episode 8 was an attempt to kill Lucas (and JJ's) darlings.  There was no respect or reverence given to the original trilogy's characters, events or story, or for continuing The Force Awakens story, for that matter.  Ruin threw it all under the bus.

And whichever side of the fence you sat on when it comes to The Least Jedi, that dissonance between the original trilogy, episode 7 and 8 - and the contentious schisms it opened up within the fanbase - directly led to the clusterfork that was Episode 9.

It wasn't the only theme, of course.  "This isn't going to end... the way you think" was another solid Ruin mantra.  Because subverted expectations, ya'll.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think this comic perfectly captures what we probably all felt:

UoghyJV.jpg

See, at least on that we can agree.  With the sale of Lucasfilm to The World Mouse, there were worries.  But man, when that trailer hit, there was hope.

And you know what they say about hope.

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15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I do deny that. RJ managed to find a continuation of TFA that was not only beautiful but brought us the best possible ending for Luke. But we've been through this. A lot. I'm tired of it.

When I walked out of 9, I thought it was a horrible trainwreck. So I started looking for reasons to like it, went again, and now I can enjoy it. It sucked to dislike it. It must suck for you, too. But at this point you have done that to yourself. There's more than enough material out there to open the way into liking 8, and it's entirely on you if you don't try.

If you need to use material outside of a movie to make you like a movie then the movie has fundamentally failed.

There are good parts but you've been **** on 3 times in a row and are marvelling at how nice the corn came out.

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9 minutes ago, McFoy said:

If you need to use material outside of a movie to make you like a movie then the movie has fundamentally failed.

There are good parts but you've been **** on 3 times in a row and are marvelling at how nice the corn came out.

Yep. If you need to see a movie a bunch of times to decide if you like or find something to like in it, the movie is not a good movie. I'm talking there of right when a movie or film comes out. That is different than seeing something when it came out and then re-visiting it at another time of one's life and seeing it differently. "Godfather II" is that sort of movie for me. Didn't get it the first time I saw it as a teen. Re-visiting it as an adult twenty years later it was a very different film. 

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48 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I do deny that. RJ managed to find a continuation of TFA that was not only beautiful but brought us the best possible ending for Luke. But we've been through this. A lot. I'm tired of it.

I haven't read your other posts, but I wanted to point out that this is subjective. RJ is on record stating he likes divisive audiences. That's just messed up as he wanted to divide the fanbase and then turn around to call it a masterpiece?... 🤦‍♀️ It is a shame he didn't make a film that could have been timeless or good for everyone, or else this discussion wouldn't be had here.

Edited by Captain Lucas

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23 hours ago, IronOx said:

Abrams has yet to really finish a story well. Alias worked because it was entirely built around Jennifer Garner's character. Aside from that, the first trek reboot was the only other thing that was a tight story.

The first two season's of "Alias" and then the third season combined with a similar thing with "Lost" are why I thought Abrams was wrong for Star Wars. Especially when combined with the cinematic travesty of "Star Trek (2009)." 

For me Trek demonstrated all the problems of JJ's films that are in the link GreenDragoon shared leading off page five from Film Crit Hulk. Stuff I've talked about in a couple of these threads. Several times there JJ used our intuitive sense of the rules of Star Trek to set up "Gotcha!" moments. How was it someone said it? It's a porcelain hamburger. Artfully crafted to be more appetizing than and appealing than a real hamburger but lacking any power to nourish you or even be eaten. 

Those first two seasons of "Alias" are terrific. They center around the Rambaldi mystery. And lend themselves to lots of "Gotcha!" with Sydney playing both sides with double-crosses and fake outs. And all of it building to... nothing really. The end of the second season they had to payoff on their mysteries. The macguffins became something we cared about and thus were no longer macguffins. They had to show us what was in the box and they couldn't. And the third season became a meandering show in search of a premise. And JJ exited the project and escaped blame. 

Then he did it again with "Lost." 

And still most would not see what this guy was as a film-maker.

Then he did it with Star Trek and got away with it cause it was exciting and Trek is always boring. Then he gave us Star Trek: Into Darkness and folks till didn't want to see who he is as a film-maker and championed him for the Star Wars sequels.

And he did it again in The Force Awakens. Mysteries! Questions! No tax disputes! No Lucas! Star Wars is Baaaaaacckkkkkk! And he din't have any answers again so walked away for Last Jedi.

And it was tremendously divisive because they didn't do the work before The Force Awakens. But that was the new guy's fault. That was just the hater entitled man-children who were threatened by women in charge. That wasn't the fault of the first act. None of that was on the threadbare setup. That wasn't on JJ not having any answers to the questions he left us with. 

And the cry went up, "Save us, JJ Abrams. You're our only hope." And here we are. 

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45 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

As for 8... if someone just didn't get it the first time then the movie might have failed to be accessible enough. But that's not the same as a bad movie. I'll agree that TLJ was too demanding.  But is has so much depth to explore that several viewings make it better and better.

No... Just no.

It isn't a case of "getting it".  It isn't a case of it being "inaccessible".  It hasn't got "hidden depth and meaning".  And it certainly isn't some kind of complex masterpiece.  Just because you personally found some way to like it doesn't mean Ruin Johnson is some kind of misunderstood auteur genius.  And it certainly doesn't mean that those who dislike it can be handwaved away as simply being haters or incapable of seeing the Full Majestic Tapestry Of His Vision (TM).  Anyone who actually believed that is the case is deluding themselves.

The Least Jedi is - at very best - a deeply flawed, deeply divisive piece of storytelling that backed the Sequel Trilogy into a corner and disenfranchised a large percentage of the fandom.

At worst, it was offensive, self-indulgent drivel.

It was not just a bad Star Wars film, it was a bad film full stop.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I never said 9 is a good movie. I don't think it is. As for 8... if someone just didn't get it the first time then the movie might have failed to be accessible enough. But that's not the same as a bad movie. I'll agree that TLJ was too demanding.  But is has so much depth to explore that several viewings make it better and better.

The creators don't get to decide what we take away from a movie. If we don't take away what they intended for us to take away that is not the fault of the audience. If the movie has failed to be accessible, if it has demanded too much, it is a bad movie. The movie hasn't done it's job.

Same goes for if we take away what they intended and don't like it. That isn't on the audience either. That I will grant is not technically a "bad movie." But it is also a movie that hasn't done its job. 

56 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How is it different? Because you changed inbetween? What if you "changed" inbetween due to reading stuff?

I think there is a difference between changes in our understanding and perspective and taste and getting all the plot holes filled in outside of the cinema so we don't mind them when watching the movie again and saying the film gets better. Think of a food you didn't like as a kid but now can't get enough of as an adult. That's different than being told why you should like a movie. Different than wanting to like a movie and figuring out a way to like a movie. Subtle distinctions but worth making. 

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I don't like this sequel trilogy primary because we seen it already. There was a severe lack of creativity in all three movies. If you can't see this then its way over your heads.

TFA was ANH

TLJ was 4 parts ESB and 1 part RotJ

TRoS was RotJ

If the Emperor can survive being killed twice in RotJ by Vader tossing him and the Death Star blowing up, he can survive this too.

JJ made it the Palpatine Saga. Rey Palpatine is the chosen one. Sheev's bloodline survived and Anikan's didnt. Palpatine actually won after 9 movies.

Rey clearly was made the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever because reasons and Force is Female.

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1 hour ago, Captain Lucas said:

I haven't read your other posts, but I wanted to point out that this is subjective. RJ is on record stating he likes divisive audiences. That's just messed up as he wanted to divide the fanbase and then turn around to call it a masterpiece?... 🤦‍♀️ It is a shame he didn't make a film that could have been timeless or good for everyone, or else this discussion wouldn't be had here.

That's just a different take on JJ's style of film-making. What can he do that is shocking or surprising or inflammatory. He'll take any reaction over no reaction. He doesn't want anyone to be indifferent. 

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

At least that part is just ... wrong. That's an objectvely answerable question, and your opinion frankly does not matter. But as I said, been there, done that.

Gaping plot holes - check.

Meaningless fetch quests - check.

Gotcha moments and fake outs - check.

Failure to follow internal logic and established lore of the setting - check.

Overreliance in macguffins - check.

Abandonment of character arcs and previously established plot points - check.

Yes, it's clearly objectively answerable - and The Least Jedi was objectively a bad movie.  And your opinion otherwise frankly does not matter.

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6 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

If we don't take away what they intended for us to take away that is not the fault of the audience. If the movie has failed to be accessible, if it has demanded too much, it is a bad movie. The movie hasn't done it's job.

Same goes for if we take away what they intended and don't like it. That isn't on the audience either. That I will grant is not technically a "bad movie." But it is also a movie that hasn't done its job. 

So what can be the fault of the audience?

11 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think there is a difference between changes in our understanding and perspective and taste and getting all the plot holes filled in outside of the cinema so we don't mind them when watching the movie again and saying the film gets better.

I was talking about changes of understanding and perspective for 8, not being told why to like it. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. But that is of course my failure as the audience doesn't fail, right? Anyway, I'm out of here. If two years discussing TLJ just continue now then it's just very sad.

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43 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Gaping plot holes - check.

Meaningless fetch quests - check.

Gotcha moments and fake outs - check.

Failure to follow internal logic and established lore of the setting - check.

Overreliance in macguffins - check.

Abandonment of character arcs and previously established plot points - check.

You also described Episode IX.

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The best thing about the movie for me was the reveal of the true reason for the rule of two, and why the apprentice always slew the master, eventually.

And yes, that means there's a Sith essence floating around somewhere unless Rey did a "Korra" and reset the Avatar system...

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19 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

- The Holdo Manoeuver was not necessary.  From a story perspective, simply turning around, full shields forward and crashing headlong into an enemy ship would have created the same effect (probably even more dramatic) without creating a scenario where you suddenly have to say, in every other movi

One thing i always wondered.  WHY Did she have to wait till almost 3/4ths of the escaping freighters GOT BLOWN UP< before she performed that maneuver?  The clip we saw of her on the bridge, seemed to show she could have done what she did, rather quickly, YET she seems to have just STOOD there watching blast after blast fly into the fleeing ships..??

9 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Yep. If you need to see a movie a bunch of times to decide if you like or find something to like in it, the movie is not a good movie. I'm talking there of right when a movie or film comes out. That is different than seeing something when it came out and then re-visiting it at another time of one's life and seeing it differently. "Godfather II" is that sort of movie for me. Didn't get it the first time I saw it as a teen. Re-visiting it as an adult twenty years later it was a very different film. 

Agreed.  If i like a movie, i'll see it multiple times.  If i hate it, i won't.  I DON'T go to a movie, and see it 3-4 times, just to decide if i liked it or not.

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27 minutes ago, LTuser said:

One thing i always wondered.  WHY Did she have to wait till almost 3/4ths of the escaping freighters GOT BLOWN UP< before she performed that maneuver?  The clip we saw of her on the bridge, seemed to show she could have done what she did, rather quickly, YET she seems to have just STOOD there watching blast after blast fly into the fleeing ships..??

Let's go deeper.

Why did SHE have to make the sacrifice in the first place?

Holdo was a new character to the franchise - one we had zero connection with going into the movie and who gave us very little incentive to connect with h during it.

The way I saw it, she was a potential successor to Leia - again, passing the torch to a new generation of characters and actors.

And we had a beloved Rebel leader from the original series WRITTEN OUT OF THE STORY OFF SCREEN.

Just imagine for one second, if it had been Admiral Ackbar making that sacrifice.  Fatally wounded during Kylo's attack, with nothing left to lose.  And he contact Hux over the intercom to surrender.

Only to say..  "one more thing: it's a trap".  Boom.  Hyperspace.

Glorious send off for a character, Holdo gets to - instead of being a completely throwaway character - lead the Resistance into the finale and actually show the world what a strong, empowered female leader looks like.

Instead we got an ytter waste.  Of Ackbar, of Leia, of Poe, of Holdo.  Because subverted expectations, y'all.

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