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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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2 hours ago, Wiredin said:

out of curiosity... if you start pulling at the strings of the ep 4 5 6 I bet you can uncover some massive plot holes there too.

The original trilogy absolutely does have massive plot holes. If those movies were released today, fans and critics would absolutely destroy them the same way they pick apart each of the sequel movies.

But, because those movies came out first and have been around for so long, they get a free pass. When it's brought up, everyone chooses not to look at the massive plot holes or comes up with excuses (that they'll define as "reasons" or "explanations") that have been built up for the last 40 years. Plus, those movies got a whole prequel trilogy to try and help fill in the planet-sized plot holes.

Edited by Derpzilla88

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28 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Honestly, the "correct" solution was... Snip...

Having Rey Palpatine keep going while all the Skywalkers are dead feels....very wrong.  Especially if they have her intending to take on the mantle (definitely implied at the end with her new light saber) of the now-twice-failed Jedi tradition.

Dude, I think you just found the moral of the story.

Cultural appropriation is ... good ... and not learning from the mistakes of others is... Ok?

Fifty years from now, Ridley in her 70s, Opening crawl of episode ten:

STAR WARS: RUIN OF LIGHT

Fear once again stretches across the Galaxy. EMPRESS SKYWALKER has claimed the outer reaches and looks to solidify her power in the corporate core. An army of JEDI travels to Corellia to seize control of the ship yards...

 

Lol😅🤪

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4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For example, look at the giant slug in epV. It's entirely ridiculous.

... It's a monster... In a Galaxy where there's magic... And dragons in the desert... And abominable snowmen... And soon a Rancor. 

And that's all BEFORE Filoni got to it.

Out of curiosity, what's your beef with it?

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4 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

... It's a monster... In a Galaxy where there's magic... And dragons in the desert... And abominable snowmen... And soon a Rancor. 

And that's all BEFORE Filoni got to it.

Out of curiosity, what's your beef with it?

That's not the point. The point was that I don't mind. But I also don't mind arched shots from the supremacy or the holdo maneuver.

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Arced shots didn't bug me either. I actually thought that was pretty cool. Now the Star killer bank shoot split beam was a bit much.

Knowing that R1 established the DS1 core was vulnerable to a relatively small blast, droids can pilot a ship to hyperspace by themselves, and the rebellion has some ships to throw at it, why did you send the suicide bomb squad at it and instead just hyper-ram the thing?

Tantive IV, random Droid, aim center, punch it, boom, Dead Death Star. Problem solved. That's the plot hole that I can't get over. 

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5 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Tantive IV, random Droid, aim center, punch it, boom, Dead Death Star. Problem solved. That's the plot hole that I can't get over. 

but thousands of star destroyers don't bother you?

Leia standing in the vacuum of space without any consequence (unlike TLJ!) doesn't bother you?

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17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

but thousands of star destroyers don't bother you?

Leia standing in the vacuum of space without any consequence (unlike TLJ!) doesn't bother you?

The Leia thing was annoying too actually. But I don't make as big a deal about it as some because there's some bits in Kotor, and other lore I'm told, where the Force can be used to kinda coccoon yourself. For that particular part my problem wasnt the infamous Mary Poppins bit, it was her not deflecting the shot with the Force herself. Or even Poppins ALL of the crew back in. Even IRL you could survive for like thirty seconds.

Like she was obviously aware of it, the book even confirms that. And that level of Force power control, on top of she's a Skywalker, she could have saved the whole bridge instead. Which would have solidified the theme they try to push later: not destroying with hate, saving with love. A perfect power to leave in our honored princess's hands.

And then later when Holdos like, imma do da thing, Leia's all like 'Kay'. I'm guessing it was just me, but I was sitting there like...

Wait, the whole point of this trilogy is to pass it on to a new generation right? Why is Leia sacrificing yet another underling? Why isn't she stunning Holdo like she did Poe, Force-throwing her onto the shuttle, and Force-jamming their door shut. Why wasn't it Leia who gets her blaze of glory? I'll take a reshoot for that. Hey husband's had already made that sacrifice, why didn't she turn around to give her sons ships a spanking? 

And then they get to crait and Leia's like 'whatever, y'all figure it out, follow that guy' 

Between those three instances, I was more upset with thee treatment of the Leia character than Luke. LJ made Leia seem cold and heartless. She sacrifices her underlings to save herself, she doesn't say a word to her friend Ackbar before he dies (doesn't even bring it up later), and in the end doesn't even bother to lead. 

Anyway that's my piece on that. Which SDs are you asking about, the new ones in Ros?

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1 minute ago, ForceSensitive said:

The Leia thing was annoying too actually. But I don't make as big a deal about it as some because there's some bits in Kotor, and other lore I'm told, where the Force can be used to kinda coccoon yourself. For that particular part my problem wasnt the infamous Mary Poppins bit, it was her not deflecting the shot with the Force herself. Or even Poppins ALL of the crew back in. Even IRL you could survive for like thirty seconds.

I'm talking about Leia in episode 5. Where she's standing in the vacuum of space, in the open mouth of a slug.

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Now we're questing into the semi-newtonian physics of exobiology. Certainly a weird one. But the worm didn't seem to mind... Much. Lol. I'll let that one ride on 'sci-fi' just so long as later we find Ezra camping in the gut of one for refuge after Force-friending it lol. 

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

You support my case. If an Exogorth can open it's mouth and retain the pressure then something is very strange.

C'mon, it's been common knowledge since day 1 that 'space' in the Star Wars galaxy isn't a vacuum.

I mean, seriously, look at the Rebel flight suits over the FIRST Death Star!  Also: TIE Fighters screaming by and blasters going pew-pew?  Fighters banking in maneuvers?

Then, yeah, the 'walking around effectively on the surface of an asteroid with nothing but an oxygen mask' from that bit of ESB.  Remember - nevermind the Exogorth, as Han and crew didn't realize they were inside one - they THOUGHT they were going to be walking around IN OPEN SPACE, and only needed the face mask.

Nononono - space in Star Wars may be a thin-ish gas, but it's definitely no vacuum.  Never has been.

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:)

Of course we can pretend that "the Star Wars galaxy isn't a vacuum" is not just retroactive retconning. But it didn't matter back then because the audience - we - would not care. Unlike today. Which is my entire point, that we are not lenient when it suits us. And we are lenient when it does.

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So I enjoyed TROS. Though to be fair, I've enjoyed all the live action SW movies. Some more than others, but none I dislike, or even worse hate.

Heck, this one might even be my favorite if the sequel trilogy.

That being said, overall the ST feels like a big missed opportunity to me.

I have several issues that have been present in the sequel movies that I was hoping would be corrected this time around, but alas.

1) The main conflict/plot: Having it be basically rebels vs imperials 2.0 was lazy. At a minimum the New Republic should have been the good guys instead of the Resistance. 

2) Vehicle design: Almost every vehicle design was just a 2.0 version of something from the OT. Again, super lazy and unoriginal.

3) World building: The worlds in the ST are mostly forgettable as they are mainly clones of worlds from the OT. Canto Bight and Exegol were interesting, and Crait to an extent. The rest not so much. Rogue One and Solo did a better job here.

4) Callbacks to the previous films: There were too many nostalgia heavy call backs to the OT, several a bit too on the nose. On the flip side the PT was barely referenced at all, and mostly things the average filmgoer wouldn't pick up on.

5) The chosen one: First of all, never having a single anakin force ghost scene in all 3 movies is a major crime (A voice over in a mess of voice overs isn't nearly the same). So many interesting possibilities there, biggest being Anakin talking to Ben. Not even a mention of his name, though Vader is said in all 3 movies. While the scene where Ben talks to his memory of Han was cool, that would have been the perfect place to have his grandfather tell him the error of his ways.

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

but thousands of star destroyers don't bother you?

Leia standing in the vacuum of space without any consequence (unlike TLJ!) doesn't bother you?

IIRC from reading one of the 'creatures of the galaxy' books, those massive space worms, actually create their own atmosphere, in a small region around them, hence the need for breath masks..  BUT mabe that's just inside it...

7 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

The Leia thing was annoying too actually. But I don't make as big a deal about it as some because there's some bits in Kotor, and other lore I'm told, where the Force can be used to kinda coccoon yourself. For that particular part my problem wasnt the infamous Mary Poppins bit, it was her not deflecting the shot with the Force herself. Or even Poppins ALL of the crew back in. Even IRL you could survive for like thirty seconds.

Like she was obviously aware of it, the book even confirms that. And that level of Force power control, on top of she's a Skywalker, she could have saved the whole bridge instead. Which would have solidified the theme they try to push later: not destroying with hate, saving with love. A perfect power to leave in our honored princess's hands.

And then later when Holdos like, imma do da thing, Leia's all like 'Kay'. I'm guessing it was just me, but I was sitting there like...

Wait, the whole point of this trilogy is to pass it on to a new generation right? Why is Leia sacrificing yet another underling? Why isn't she stunning Holdo like she did Poe, Force-throwing her onto the shuttle, and Force-jamming their door shut. Why wasn't it Leia who gets her blaze of glory? I'll take a reshoot for that. Hey husband's had already made that sacrifice, why didn't she turn around to give her sons ships a spanking? 

And then they get to crait and Leia's like 'whatever, y'all figure it out, follow that guy' 

Between those three instances, I was more upset with thee treatment of the Leia character than Luke. LJ made Leia seem cold and heartless. She sacrifices her underlings to save herself, she doesn't say a word to her friend Ackbar before he dies (doesn't even bring it up later), and in the end doesn't even bother to lead. 

Anyway that's my piece on that. Which SDs are you asking about, the new ones in Ros?

I was totally irked about that whole 'mary poppins' part they did for leia.  AT no point have we seen her do anything high force related, and even in the EU novels, she never really wanted to train in the force from Luke..  Not even after having her 3 force powerful kids (anakin, Jaina and Jacen).  So her doing it there, with no real explanation really strained my disbelief into breaking..  BUT I do agree, it would have been a great send off, had SHE done the 'holdo ram'..

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

5) The chosen one: First of all, never having a single anakin force ghost scene in all 3 movies is a major crime (A voice over in a mess of voice overs isn't nearly the same). So many interesting possibilities there, biggest being Anakin talking to Ben. Not even a mention of his name, though Vader is said in all 3 movies. While the scene where Ben talks to his memory of Han was cool, that would have been the perfect place to have his grandfather tell him the error of his ways.

That did kind of irk me..  Other than Yoda, we never really saw any force ghosts appear..  BUT maybe they felt none needed to show up.  Uber force Rey can do it all..

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11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Exactly. It doesn't bother you - me - because the rest of the movie does not bother you. You could be as lenient with the holdo maneuver, and I could be as lenient with the DeathStar Lasers on thousands of StarDestroyers.

I'm sorry, I don't think I quite got where you were coming from earlier. My bad, I see your question now. Okay let me try to answer this.

The ep5 worm thing doesn't create a plot hole. So it doesn't bother me because I just assume that's a thing in that verse. Who knows, maybe the worm uses Force powers to maintain that atmosphere and gravity. Because, it doesn't change how anything in space happened before, they never showed that. They give you this one scene and it's like hey, this is how this works. And your like bu... Look man lasers block lasers, they in a space worm now.  And as they never really repeat the conditions again, they don't have any plot holes later either. Now we're going to have A REAL problem if later we are inside one of those things again, the mouth opens, and everything gets blown out. For sure, we're agreed hard on that. THAT would be a hole. And your right, a bad one.

Holdo ram DOES create a hole because it uses only information we already have to do something that the information never did before. In the Canon hyper drives are common, their ancient even, we all know this. But never once across the entire thing do we see a hyper bullet, or a hyper missile, or a hyper torpedo. It's never even nodded at. At best we get Han saying your trip will end if you crash into something while your at hyper speed. He doesn't say anything about what happens to what you hit. and since every time a desperate measure would call for it, the story never even considers it, through all that time, against every world ending threat, there's no reason to assume it could even work. 

*Because I can't personally remember where this gets confirmed, asterisk. But I saw someone mention that one of the old comics actually had a hyper speed accident. The ramming ship was completely annihilated, and the struck ship survived virtually unharmed because of all things... It's Shields were up. It would be great to have that reference for a whole continued version of this conversation. GD, I feel like we should be cracking beers for this convo lol 😄

Anyway. It wouldn't have took much for them to have "made it work". If there was even a little exposition as to why this one time it was possible, we'd be golden. Like we saw earlier that the Supremacy's Shields had sections that could be individually compromised, without much notice. They could have played on that angle. Or play on the hyper tracking had a flaw that (insert technocant here) allows this to work. **** what if R2 rolled up was all like hey, I've been doing hyper computation for funsies while I was asleep, this is the result. As it is on just this one instance, and nobody bats an eyelash? Everyone's like oh right I forgot we could do that annnnnd were moving on. 

Really the hole is that this is to all concerned a non-unique circumstance with a predicted result that leaves the audience left wondering why that wasn't used way earlier, and in multiple places. Like, it's not even discussed. And the in verse characters are just like, meh, never really thought about it. And that's why I can't be lenient with it. I hope I got you covered this time.

Now since I've been thinking on your question all night at work. It would have been pretty darn nifty, if the super plot weapons of this trilogy, WERE hyper-guns. That some maniac breakthrough opened the door to the Star killer Hyper matter beam and such. Not just oh it's a death Star gun but bigger. Then that's worked into hyper drives and wham bam the whole thing would've worked. Oh well.

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