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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Or, since it was clearly intended to give Finn (who's not a pilot) something to do, a boarding action but a 'proper' one, inside the ship.

 

Yea I don’t get this. It would have been a better and more believable experience. As is you have to think they just never thought about shooting at it from a fighter? I guess?

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6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Three arguably. I think 3PO bugs me most. It's not death per se, but a big part of the setting has always been "what would you sacrifice for love/freedom/victory/whatever" - many important fights are won by self-sacrifice and moral choice not "I bought  an extra level of the lightsaber skill". 

The whole translation thing is contrived but isn't sprung spontaneously, it's built up to, they try to find alternatives (and fail) and ultimately it's a meaningful sacrifice that only he can make. It's no different in many respects to data's death in Nemesis and undercutting it with "and back to normal" kind of cheapens it a bit to me.

Dang, that scene of 3PO "taking a last look to his friends" had more emotion in the trailer/teaser. In the film, it meant nothing.

The more time it passes, the more I see how Ep. IX was a failure. It tried to do a lot of things at the same time and did all of them badly.

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5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I mean the First Order TIE fighters which jump them as they're picking up the message on the ice asteroid. They follow the Falcon through the hyperskip sequence, which means they must be hyperspace capable - so they should be TIE/sf (or TIE/ba or TIE/vn, but they're clearly not interceptors), but it looks more like they're TIE/fo; I don't recall seeing the cogwheels or weapon pods. That might just be the angle of the shot, though.

I think they are of the new TIE Whisper model, which is the new Kylo's ship, but with TIE Fighter wings instead.

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6 hours ago, Sithborg said:

The Force has been getting weird for a long time now. Just go with the flow. With Nightsisters, Bendus, and Mortis, is this really an issue? 

Yes. It is an issue. It is fundamentally one of the problems with the sequel trilogy from the outset. They didn't make rules for The Force. Magic (The Force in the case of Star Wars) in a fantasy world needs to have rules. It needs rules for what it can and can not do and the costs for using it. Same goes for tech in sci-fi. It needs rules and what it can and can not do and costs for using it. Without frameworks the characters never earn anything. Nothing is on the line because there are no costs and their sacrifices feel hollow. The creators are just pulling rabbits out of hats. 

One of the great failures of The Force Awakens was not just re-hashing "Star Wars." It was the utter disregard for setting the framework up for not just this sequel trilogy but for all the other Star Wars stories they'd want to tell. Those sorts of rules are going to ground everything and tie everything together as much or more than TIE Fighters, X-wings, and Stormtroopers. Bendu on Atollon and Nightsisters on Dathomir and Mortis tying off "The Chosen One" arc bending the rules a bit doesn't mean there aren't any rules. And The Force Awakens was a chance to dial any exigencies for those stories back or give them context. 

And without rules you get what you have in Rise of Skywalker. JJ can't be bothered with rules. His entire style is based on taking our expectations our intuitive understanding of the rules and using them as a rug to pull out from under the audience. This isn't quite what I'm getting at with rules for The Force but we've touched on this already text versus texture. That article had this to say about JJ.

Quote

I remember I once met a guy who was a projectionist at a great theater. He was smart as ****. He had seen a zillion movies. I don’t think he knew the rules from studying person, but through pure absorption, I think intuitively knew all the rules and could thus “see the strings” of any movie that had any kind of real manipulation to it. And he had a fascinating argument for why he loved J.J. Abrams (and thereby his specific brand of textural filmmaking). For him, it’s because J.J. isn’t operating by story rules, but instead using the same intuitive story sense to constantly try to surprise the audience. He’ll zig instead of zag and constantly keeps the audience on their visceral toes without ever really building to a thing. For this viewer, he could throw all logic and story sensibility to the wind precisely because it allows him to zone out and feel something and emote along with it…It is as fascinating an argument as I’ve ever seen for liking his work, but when I think about this verbiage I realize how much it sounds like the language of addiction.

And the funny thing I've seen in a lot of these threads (not just here) are folks saying they liked the movies but their lists of cons are longer than their lists of pros and one of their pros has a caveat. A whole bunch of the "enjoyed folks" sound a lot like me when I needed to cut back on my drinking or when I wouldn't get out of a bad relationship. They sound like they're trying to convince themselves. 

JJ was the wrong guy for this from the start. And he's proved it with this installment. JJ can't be bothered with the rules or even destinations and something asking for the sorts of buy ins from the audience that Star Wars does needs rules and needs frameworks or it just becomes ridiculous. And then it commits a far worse story-telling crime than making no sense. It makes no one care. 

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The Force has always had rules:

Some are sensitive to it, others aren't, but it does exist throughout everything.

Exerting will over it is mentally/physically taxing. You might sweat, or mentally fatigue, by using it. (Or if your the strongest Jedi in the universe keel over dead)

It can be used to control natural phenomenon like gravity (lift rocks, push/pull) ,electrical current (open mechanically doors, lightning) , and space time (bizarrely, and probably the most recent addition. Time travel in temples. Hold person. Though earlier use pretexts this like instantaneous 'feelings' and 'calls' through the Force.)

But for all this the Force cannot seem to do certain things. You can't use it to outright will someone to die, you still have to combat them, though the Force can be weaponized towards that goal (choke). You can't fly, at best getting an enhanced jump. You can't create something from nothing, or erase something from existence.

Once you follow those rules though, almost anything else is possible. Though where things get sketchy is when you bend the exertion cost too flippantly. Like if just projecting an image (photon manipulation) is enough to get you killed. This alleged sabre teleport I've heard of should have literally given you a heart attack to pull off. Previously you needed the 'temple network'(a support system) to accomplish this feat at all. (Once again, another reason why all the characters in this trilogy feel like Mary-sues)

You might say that the Force has a lot in common with (I can't believe I'm about to relate these things) Full metal Alchemists 'law of equivalent exchange', and Wizard of Earthsea/Begaraid/Eragon magic, and just your plain old laws of physics.

That's the only comment I can offer right now. I'm not giving money to Disney right now so I'm just diving straight into every spoiler just so I know what's going on. 

Edited by ForceSensitive
Spelling of my gawd my auto type hates me kill me now.

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Which is another thing that actually breaks a rule. The Force was never able to be transferred. Jedi and Sith could never 'gift' sensitivity, or say Force push an object through someone else's hand. Yoda didn't show Luke how to lift the xwing by channeling Force through Lukes body. Force powers and understanding are a very personal journey in that regard. Which is a good angle to have for storytelling so the characters growth and significance has visual and manifest cues. Obi can't guide the torpedo, all he can do is tell Luke to do it. When Luke does, you see he's taken a personal step.

Even Yoda lightning bolt to the tree broke this rule. If you can actually impact the real world from the living-Force side of the dead, then there are A TON of missed opportunities for the dead to have influenced events all through the Canon. Even minor tricks could have saved millions and altered the course of history. It's as universe breaking as a hyper-ram, honestly. 

I think this was always like the more traditional and literal interpretation of Deus Ex machina in the Star Wars storytelling style. Where the dead (Deus stand in) drop in to teach a lesson when it's needed from the Force (ex machina). But that's all they can do: impart wisdom of the dead. Otherwise the story is not centered on the decisions of the living. 

Now that said, if the only time they broke that rule was one scene, with thee Yoda, and one bolt, at a location strong in the Force, then I was willing to give it a pass as a combination of circumstances. Barely, because it was the dead wisdom thing at the core of that scene, but a pass.

( @TasteTheRainbow)

Edited by ForceSensitive

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1) I really liked the movie. Sure it had a rushed paced that made things feel disjointed at times, but it was real fun.

2) dark rey duel was fantastic!

3) T65 X-wings can survive being submerged for 20+ years and still operate like they are well maintained. perfect ship confrimed

4) the people who pulled every thread out of TLJ will do the same and ruin TROS. 

5) I didn't enjoy LTJ, but I really really enjoy TROS! 

6) Daisy Ridley's beauty is fully enjoyable on IMAX. 

Edited by Wiredin

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31 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

 

Even Yoda lightning bolt to the tree broke this rule. If you can actually impact the real world from the living-Force side of the dead, then there are A TON of missed opportunities for the dead to have influenced events all through the Canon. Even minor tricks could have saved millions and altered the course of history. It's as universe breaking as a hyper-ram, honestly. 

 

this is the thing I question the most in the sequel trilogy. I don't care about a lot of the other Force abilities unveiled (to argue against that would be like going back to video games and crying about new abilities. we can't say we know everything about the force after the original 6 movies. Yoda and Qui-Gon were still learning!) Transferring physical objects over distance was just plot driven nonsense. kind of like Iron Man's nanite suit. 

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8 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Sort of, it's mostly a symptom of Disney's writers lack of respect for the star wars lore.

In the EU there's a planet of dark sider elemental benders. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shapers_of_Kro_Var

I would argue that Lucas is actually the one who started the Force down this path with the Mortis arc, as well as reintroducing the Nightsisters and Maul in they way he did. Really, they have only expanded with what Lucas started. And in doing, really emphasizes Vader's line of "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. 

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1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

I would argue that Lucas is actually the one who started the Force down this path with the Mortis arc, as well as reintroducing the Nightsisters and Maul in they way he did. Really, they have only expanded with what Lucas started. And in doing, really emphasizes Vader's line of "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. 

I mean, there's a lore force ability for destroying fleets of starships/planets. Force storm.

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12 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I mean, there's a lore force ability for destroying fleets of starships/planets. Force storm.

🤨 Game logic applied to something that never followed said logic outside of said games... The only "ability" involving the Force is the capability to sense and direct it. The resulting effect is based on the intent/focus and capability of the individual or group directing it, manifesting as they choose to visualize it. Specific Force powers, abilities, etc only exist as simplifications to ease coding and control the structure of how the games are played. Watch the movies and cartoons again sometime and forget what the video games taught you about how the Force functions...

Edited by Hiemfire

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On 12/19/2019 at 7:45 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Out of interest, would anyone have preferred the reverse?  Rey (Palpatine) dying to save and redeem  Ben Solo, for him to take on the mantle of the last Skywalker?

Because, let's face it, all Skywalkers dead and their legacy made completely redundant while a Palpatine lives is... incomprehensible, really.

Honestly, the "correct" solution was for them both to die with Palpatine.  That wraps up the 9-episode series, then - it starts in Episode I with Palpatine taking power (and off-screen, apparently, finally killing his own master) and discovering the apparently-Force-created Skywalker line...and would end in Episode IX with the end of the Skywalker and Palpatine lines.  *boom*, that's an arc, and works as a singular and cohesive story, then.

Having Rey Palpatine keep going while all the Skywalkers are dead feels....very wrong.  Especially if they have her intending to take on the mantle (definitely implied at the end with her new light saber) of the now-twice-failed Jedi tradition.

 

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On 12/19/2019 at 9:45 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Out of interest, would anyone have preferred the reverse?  Rey (Palpatine) dying to save and redeem  Ben Solo, for him to take on the mantle of the last Skywalker?

Because, let's face it, all Skywalkers dead and their legacy made completely redundant while a Palpatine lives is... incomprehensible, really.

 

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Having Rey Palpatine keep going while all the Skywalkers are dead feels....very wrong.  Especially if they have her intending to take on the mantle (definitely implied at the end with her new light saber) of the now-twice-failed Jedi tradition.

Kinda seemed like the point of the ending with Rey taking on the mantle of "Skywalker" was to push the point that bloodline and family doesn't define who the person is. Just because her family was evil doesn't mean that she's destined to go that way; kind of like how a certain hero of a previous trilogy did the same. Her actions are in line with what the Skywalkers did so she wants that legacy to live on, and the Palpatine name to die and not be what defines her.

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1 hour ago, Wiredin said:

out of curiosity... if you start pulling at the strings of the ep 4 5 6 I bet you can uncover some massive plot holes there too.

Yes, for sure. But they are nowhere near as obvious and glaring. Nor do they make holes backwards into their timeline. They mostly always follow the rules of the precedences that they create. It's this cohesion that had helped create the fan base where we were given mostly definitive guides to the sand box(sorry Ani) I feel. Look too close there's cracks

Like Obi 'lied' to Luke about Vader. But did he? Lol to a certain point. This is actually a character feature for Obi when they go back and make the prequels. Obi lies a surprising amount to get things to work a bit to his plan. They follow the rules as they add too it.

But Obi doesn't reach through the Force to mind trick the scouts on Endor to abandon their bikes for Luke and Leia. That would open a plot hole. So, They follow the rules. The dead can speak, but not act.

There aren't many others though that I can remember off the top of my head. If you've got one, hit us. We can figure out together if it's retconned or followed through or whatever. I think most of the ones we find are minor sweep under rug deals. Not wtef black holes generators of "then why didn't you xxxxx back then!?" 

 

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