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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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Exactly. Look at GoT, how they botched it even though they allegedly got some pointers on how to finish. Look at Hollywood and how many original movies we got in recent times. I would also stick to reboots and sequels.

My point is, it's difficult to make amazing original stories. Starwars 7-9 was original*, MCU not.

*and naturally, they stuck to known qualities and mirrored 4-6 more or less closely. Another reason why TLJ is the best of the bunch as it was more new ideas.

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4 hours ago, Flurpy said:

The Last Jedi is a film made by a competent person who hated Star Wars. 

The Rise of Skywalker is a film made by an incompetent person that loved a 7 year olds idea of Star Wars. 

 

I prefer Last Jedi. I dislike them both. 

This. So much this.

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8 hours ago, Flurpy said:

The Last Jedi is a film made by a competent person who hated Star Wars. 

The Rise of Skywalker is a film made by an incompetent person that loved a 7 year olds idea of Star Wars. 

 

I prefer Last Jedi. I dislike them both. 

To say Rian Johnson hates Star Wars is a fundamental misunderstanding of The Last Jedi, but we've been there and done that haven't we?

It's all this fanbase can actually do WRT TLJ.

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7 hours ago, KCDodger said:

To say Rian Johnson hates Star Wars is a fundamental misunderstanding of The Last Jedi, but we've been there and done that haven't we?

It's all this fanbase can actually do WRT TLJ.

Hate might be a strong word but they were definitely a mismatch. I think it's the best of the three, but only because the competition is horrible. 

Its like if Steven Soderbergh directed a Fast And Furious movie. All the talent in the world doesn't save you from the initial ill fit. 

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3 hours ago, Flurpy said:

Hate might be a strong word but they were definitely a mismatch. I think it's the best of the three, but only because the competition is horrible. 

Its like if Steven Soderbergh directed a Fast And Furious movie. All the talent in the world doesn't save you from the initial ill fit. 

I'd argue that out of the directors, only Irvin Kershner and Rian Johnson truly understand what makes Star Wars, Star Wars.

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16 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

I'd argue that out of the directors, only Irvin Kershner and Rian Johnson truly understand what makes Star Wars, Star Wars.

Fair enough. I might just be misunderstanding his vision, but to each their own 

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5 hours ago, Flurpy said:

Fair enough. I might just be misunderstanding his vision, but to each their own 

If you like behind the scene videos, I highly suggest watching the documentary ‘The director and the Jedi’ about the making-of of The Last Jedi.

You might disagree with and/or hate his vision, but you can see that Rian Johnson is passionate about Star Wars and wanted to make what he thinks is a great Star Wars movie.

Guess I’m one of the lucky ones that share his vision.

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4 hours ago, Red Castle said:

If you like behind the scene videos, I highly suggest watching the documentary ‘The director and the Jedi’ about the making-of of The Last Jedi.

You might disagree with and/or hate his vision, but you can see that Rian Johnson is passionate about Star Wars and wanted to make what he thinks is a great Star Wars movie.

Guess I’m one of the lucky ones that share his vision.

This. He really went through a lot of pains to make TLJ really shine the way he wanted, but to really explore what Star Wars was.

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On 1/18/2020 at 7:25 AM, GreenDragoon said:

Exactly. Look at GoT, how they botched it even though they allegedly got some pointers on how to finish. Look at Hollywood and how many original movies we got in recent times. I would also stick to reboots and sequels.

This is a good point.  D&D did an exceptional job of adapting the Game of Thrones books for TV (not a flawless job - Dorne), but when they ran out of detailed material to work with they obviously struggled.

And that's not really surprising; they're screenwriters, producers and directors, not best-selling fantasy authors.  With the best will in the world, they were never going to be able to keep the quality of writing in the series to it's high standards without Martin's material to work from.

As you pointed out, the MCU has decades worth of incredible stories, characters and storylines to draw from.  Star Wars didn't quite have that amount of material, but it did have material.  It did have characters.  It did have stories.  And unlike their approach with the MCU, Disney decided to punt them all out of the airlock.

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8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

This is a good point.  D&D did an exceptional job of adapting the Game of Thrones books for TV (not a flawless job - Dorne), but when they ran out of detailed material to work with they obviously struggled.

And that's not really surprising; they're screenwriters, producers and directors, not best-selling fantasy authors.  With the best will in the world, they were never going to be able to keep the quality of writing in the series to it's high standards without Martin's material to work from.

As you pointed out, the MCU has decades worth of incredible stories, characters and storylines to draw from.  Star Wars didn't quite have that amount of material, but it did have material.  It did have characters.  It did have stories.  And unlike their approach with the MCU, Disney decided to punt them all out of the airlock.

Legends has both the best and the worst of Star Wars. 

After finishing the Sequel Trilogy, I firmly believe it didn't worth to get rid of the Vong and the Sun Crusher.

Edited by Odanan

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28 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

As you pointed out, the MCU has decades worth of incredible stories, characters and storylines to draw from.  Star Wars didn't quite have that amount of material, but it did have material.  It did have characters.  It did have stories.

And how many of those star wars EU stories were good?

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There is one distinct difference between Star Wars and the MCU, and why I think the MCU is much easier to work with.

With the MCU, the fans are used to multiple universe. There is not one definite universe with ‘rules’ that everything must adhere to. This is not one big ongoing story. What happens in the movies doesn’t affect what happens in the comic books, and vice versa. Fans knows what to expect because for the most part, the MCU is just retelling big comicbooks events with a different takes.

In the case of Star Wars, the movies are what takes the story forward. It is one big universe and what happens on screen affects what happens in the books, comics and games. So if you don’t like what you see, or if doesn’t connect with your personal vision of what is Star Wars or how it should go, you are bound to be much more disapointed than in the case of the MCU where you can just ignore it and move on, because it doesn’t matter as much, it’s just one of many universe.
 

I really miss the days in the 80s and early 90s when there was no such things as canon, when Star Wars really was what you wanted it to be, and thats it, a big playground with no real rules to the universe, only the 3 movies, and later a couple books.

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And how many of those star wars EU stories were good?

Not a lot of it, that's for sure.

3 hours ago, Red Castle said:

There is one distinct difference between Star Wars and the MCU, and why I think the MCU is much easier to work with.

With the MCU, the fans are used to multiple universe. There is not one definite universe with ‘rules’ that everything must adhere to. This is not one big ongoing story. What happens in the movies doesn’t affect what happens in the comic books, and vice versa. Fans knows what to expect because for the most part, the MCU is just retelling big comicbooks events with a different takes.

In the case of Star Wars, the movies are what takes the story forward. It is one big universe and what happens on screen affects what happens in the books, comics and games. So if you don’t like what you see, or if doesn’t connect with your personal vision of what is Star Wars or how it should go, you are bound to be much more disapointed than in the case of the MCU where you can just ignore it and move on, because it doesn’t matter as much, it’s just one of many universe.
 

I really miss the days in the 80s and early 90s when there was no such things as canon, when Star Wars really was what you wanted it to be, and thats it, a big playground with no real rules to the universe, only the 3 movies, and later a couple books.

The funny thing is, you'd think Star Trek fans'd have no trouble with this either, but I can't begin to tell you how many I've had to tell that JJ's Trek is an AU, not a reboot.

I'm sure somebody's going to try to tell me I'm wrong, just watch.

Can't say anything about the 80s, because I wasn't there. But there was some serious dreck, by all accounts, with Star Wars' name on it. You're right that having things that are and aren't canon is a bit of an issue, but I wanna' talk about Sonic for a sec. Yeah, The Hedgehog, and believe me it's relevant.
___________________________________________________________________________

Sonic was living large in the early 90s, SEGA felt they could do no wrong. They didn't have a lot of foresight, and commissioned a BUNCH of non unified or intersecting sonics. A Sonic for everyone. Comics, TV shows, games, other media, all more or less self contained. Canon was never a concern. ****, it probably still isn't, but there's some kinda' substance. But here's the issue, right? Between Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Adventure, there wasn't a whole lot of Game Sonic. Plenty of comic, plenty of show, not a lot of game. So a lot of people who were brought in by that- and that was most, were able to get REALLY cozy with their idea of what Sonic was, unchallenged and very familiar with it.

Then Adventure happened, and it was extremely, extremely divisive. I'm an Adventure-onwards kid, no shame in admitting that, I love it dearly to this day. Buuuuut y'see there's exactly the thing, right?

Suddenly there were divided groups in the fanbase. The problem was a lack of constant material and consistency between them. When everyone has "Their" version of something and another's takes precedence, they get pissy.

Sound familiar? It should. For just about twenty years there were no Star Wars films. It was defined entirely by the OT and its feel. When the Prequels came out, it ushered in a whole new wave of fans. We cannot begin to pretend that isn't true, just look at all of us who grew up with that as "our" Star Wars. (I predate it, but still. I was eight years old when the Prequels came out. It's more home to me than The OT ever was.) Worse yet we're very used to people despising our Star Wars.

That's also why Prequel fans are more willing on average to accept the ST than OT fans, because they're used to hearing negativity about something they love.

But y'see, that's the thing. Star Wars is divided that way because of how the content was handled, and there's been no move (save making TLJ) more divisive than "erasing" the canon. While the EU was never canon in the first place, I was lucky to be blessed with that knowledge by my father from an early age, who understood this very, very clearly.

I was very shocked to find out that most fans had no idea about such a distinction, and had next to no knowledge outside of what they were familiar with to be the Star Wars canon. It's also easy to forget, for those of us who are very very well versed in the EU, that we're mega fans. Know way more than the average joe. ****, we forget the average joe just watches the damned movies.

But seriously, that divide that exists in the Sonic fandom exists far worse in the Star Wars fandom. The Sequel Trilogy has made this extremely apparent- and I'm going to say this.

Disney needed to handle the Sequel Trilogy delicately and boldly in equal measure. By the end of it, they failed to do both, and that is going to cost the fanbase itself in the long term. Not Disney, they'll be fine. Not Star wars, it'll be fine.

But if you want that "Everyone's own Star Wars"? You're getting it really soon. Everything's going to be fairly divorced from the Skywalker saga going forward, more or less. Story's over, and not everything was told as properly as possible. There's going to be even more chaos in this fandom once the High Republic era content comes down the pipeline.

None of us are ready. But we could have been.

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36 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And how many of those star wars EU stories were good?

The Thrawn Trilogy was pretty universally liked, for a start.  The X-Wing novels as well.

26 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

There is one distinct difference between Star Wars and the MCU, and why I think the MCU is much easier to work with.

With the MCU, the fans are used to multiple universe. There is not one definite universe with ‘rules’ that everything must adhere to. This is not one big ongoing story. What happens in the movies doesn’t affect what happens in the comic books, and vice versa. Fans knows what to expect because for the most part, the MCU is just retelling big comicbooks events with a different takes.

In the case of Star Wars, the movies are what takes the story forward. It is one big universe and what happens on screen affects what happens in the books, comics and games. So if you don’t like what you see, or if doesn’t connect with your personal vision of what is Star Wars or how it should go, you are bound to be much more disapointed than in the case of the MCU where you can just ignore it and move on, because it doesn’t matter as much, it’s just one of many universe.
 

I really miss the days in the 80s and early 90s when there was no such things as canon, when Star Wars really was what you wanted it to be, and thats it, a big playground with no real rules to the universe, only the 3 movies, and later a couple books.

All good points.  As a big Marvel fan, it's interesting to me how long it took to get to where they are now.  For a long, long time DC was the only comic book franchise that saw mainstream success, with the Superman and Batman films.  It wasn't until the early 2000's with films like X-Men and Spiderman that Marvel really began to move forward.

While Marvel was building an entire back catalogue of stories and characters, unrestrained by mainstream media, Star Wars always had the backbone of the three films that everything revolved around.

The approach of the studios to making the films is worth considering.  While the MCU eventually became the commercial equivalent of a runaway freight train, I doubt too many people predicted what it would become when Iron Man first hit the screens.  A plan was definitely in place, but it was built up over time.

The Star Wars sequels on the other hand really just tried to hit the ground running from day one.  For all the marketing talk, I really doubt the sequels were originally planned to be a trilogy.  And all that talk of RoS being the "end of the Skywalker Saga" was absent from VII and VIII.

One of these franchises was developed slowly, patiently and with care and forethought.  The other was rushed.  And in both cases, it shows.

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16 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

The Thrawn Trilogy was pretty universally liked, for a start.  The X-Wing novels as well.

I didn't think I'd have to rephrase it...

How many of those stories that were not already incorporated, or that are remotely suitable to serve as trilogy arc were good?

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

With the MCU, the fans are used to multiple universe.

That's such an important point, thanks for making it.

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With regarding the end of Game of Thrones did none of you really see the story was going there? They showed us who Daenerys is pretty consistently throughout the story. They got to the end of that a bit quick and without enough build up in the last season but her first inclination was always threats and murder. There is the constant thread running though the story of her insane father (and even mention of the many insane and murderous forebears who didn't quite reach Aerys's level) who was willing to burn the kingdom down than let anyone else have it. Constant "my way or the highway" moments. They were "forgiven" because mostly when they were violent they were against "bad" people and everyone wanted to see a woman in charge. It is baffling to me that anyone can hate the ending of HBO's Game of Thrones while thinking Last Jedi is either good cinema or good Star Wars. Maybe not that baffling since there is a fairly clear tendency to expect the worst of men and the best of women. 

Last Jedi conflicts both with OT (Luke's triumph of seeing the good in his father) and TFA (as Luke left the map presumably so he might be found) and has even less build up to the WTH moment. 

18 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And how many of those star wars EU stories were good?

And that's the sort of comment that demonstrates why combined with the desire to distance themselves as far from the prequels as possible we got that re-hashed version of A New Hope at the outset. Luke actually in charge of a functioning New Jedi Order and New Republic likely looked to much like both the hated prequels and the "hated" EU. Anyone who wants to say we got the Star Wars we deserved and is unwilling to acknowledge their own participation in that with their hatred of the prequels and the EU needed put out of its misery environment the creators made their crap decisions in comes across as a hypocrite of the worst stripe to me.

And they didn't need to take the stories from all that EU content. They just needed to sift it out into coherent frameworks for the Force and blasters and hyperspace and other tech and governments and corruptions and the consistent universe all of their new stories would be set in. 

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

With regarding the end of Game of Thrones did none of you really see the story was going there? They showed us who Daenerys is pretty consistently throughout the story. They got to the end of that a bit quick and without enough build up in the last season but her first inclination was always threats and murder. There is the constant thread running though the story of her insane father (and even mention of the many insane and murderous forebears who didn't quite reach Aerys's level) who was willing to burn the kingdom down than let anyone else have it. Constant "my way or the highway" moments.

Yes. I did see it coming. And I actually enjoyed that she razed King's Landing. Makes a lot of sense. "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken

But everything else in the last season felt rushed, forced and/or bad fan service.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

And they didn't need to take the stories from all that EU content. They just needed to sift it out into coherent frameworks for the Force and blasters and hyperspace and other tech and governments and corruptions and the consistent universe all of their new stories would be set in. 

Yes, they didn't. They could do exactly how Marvel was handled: pick the best stories and improve/change them to fit the silver screen.

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5 hours ago, Frimmel said:

With regarding the end of Game of Thrones did none of you really see the story was going there? 

What @Odanan said.  The ending would have been fine, if it hadn't been so rushed.  The last two seasons felt lie to a race to the finish line as the producers substituted big set pieces and spectacular effects for story, character development and plot.

Like I said, I can't blame them - they're not fantasy writers - but given the reception, it clearly didn't work.

The Star Wars sequel trilogy had that rush to get content out from the start, but in that case there's no excuses - they had plenty of content there to adapt, develop and work from, they simply decided instead to ignore it.  Maybe that's understandable given how convoluted and variable in quality the EU had become, but starting over from scratch and trying to rush out content without a clear plan led to what we got:  a fanbase dividing, opinion splitting mess.

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