Jump to content
Odanan

The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I fail to understand why you all think a time skip was even an option after the ending of TFA

The first meeting is too important to leave it to the off screen. And I guarantee that it would have been the next Holdo maneuver of fan complaints.

Jumping around in time to show the story unfold from different vantage points can happen whenever the writer wants. Sometimes it can evoke a greater impact when it's done chaotically. Look at Dunkirk as an example. Heck in that movie you really don't get the sense of how much they're jumping around until the third act.

I mean, your heralding 8 for it's zigs instead of zags. If you think it 'wasn't an option'... Then wouldn't that have been a good time to... Y'know...zig? Instead of zag? 

What's really funny is that Rian even flashed back to the same moment THREE TIMES to show different perspectives, each acted subtly differently, for a single 30 second moment. You'd think he'd have jumped at the chance to bounce around though Rey's training and talks with Luke.

Also comparing it to a Holdo move is just quite silly. Hyper-ram broke the dimensions of it's world building, and a time skip is in keeping with the story telling style. Apples, Oranges. Ironically, if you used a time skip, the Holdo move would have been potentially fine. You'd be able to go back and add something in between 7 and 8 to explain it. And the audience would have just ran with it expecting Disney to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kris40k said:

and is actually an unusual choice as none of the previous Star Wars movies have done that.

As are flashbacks? I mean, clearly you can't see 'unusual' as reason not to do it if you advocate a flashback.

I'm not against flashbacks in Starwars. For me personally the solution that @ForceSensitive described would work. Even ignoring that it would massively change the character of Luke from what was shown in TLJ:  you can't treat that first meeting like an afterthought or ignore it entirely. People are angry that a minor character like Akbar died quasi offscreen, even though we know he's there and that the attack was an important blow that knocked out Leia. And working in flashbacks will take a lot of room in the movie, besides feeling strange as it is a completely new element in episode 8 out of 9!

It's just a strange idea.

Which is why it is selfevident that JJ wrote the movie into a corner already for his - really cool! - finale of 7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

If you time skipped, and "what's up with Luke" was still a concern, you'd have had all sorts of time to explore the answer to that question. We could've had a way more interesting second arc for Luke in general where Hamill acts out over years his return to the path as old Luke. I'd have eagerly anticipated that as much as folks are excited now for an Obi-Wans story of his Tattooine years

JJ left the whole thing open to 8. I really can't get there with it being 'in a corner'. The only thing tied off in 7 was Han. We were still trying to figure out what in the world the New Republic, the First Order, and resistance were even aiming for as objectives. Heck I still couldn't tell you what their end games were supposed to be. 

We still had no idea how big any of those factions were, we had a bevy of new characters and power groups, a few new worlds, umpteen billion questions, and the plot of the movie was accomplished: Find Luke. JJ took an entire movie to legit get the cast introduced. Heck I half expected the only flashback to Luke and Rey's meeting was going to be him getting on the falcon and flying back with her to see Leia. Like lol, you found me, alright let's go back now weeeeee. Just, without the enthusiasm haha.😝

Sad Luke weeeeee.

Edit: Oh and the Republic was destroyed I guess... Whatever it was.

Edited by ForceSensitive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, kris40k said:

Yes.

Because we want to see a Star Wars movie.

 

11 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

We've legit had it this way for 7 movies. It's fun. Let's your imagination run around in the sand box. Evokes wonder. Makes you think. I don't think there's a reason to suspect we wanted it changed.

We liked the aged wine. Then we show up to 8 and they're like here's a gallon of grape juice. And we're like dude, it's not ready yet. You need to wait.

This is what's wrong with the Star Wars fanbase.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

We've legit had it this way for 7 movies. It's fun. Let's your imagination run around in the sand box.

And let's them write novels, comics, and tv series for years showing what happened during that time.

10 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Look at Dunkirk as an example. Heck in that movie you really don't get the sense of how much they're jumping around until the third act.

Or like how every Harry Potter movie takes place over an entire school year!

Edited by DarthEnderX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KCDodger said:

 

This is what's wrong with the Star Wars fanbase.

 

I've been just reading along for quite some time now. Really haven't felt the need to comment on anything that's been said, because since TLJ, I've been very uninterested in Star Wars.

But it's comments like this one that drive me up the wall. What exactly is wrong with the Star Wars fanbase, dude? That some of us are critical of what is presented to us instead of gobbling it all up without any second thought? Nobody's always gonna like everything. What's wrong with respectfully and coherently expressing one's disappointment with the direction one's favorite fictional thing has been taking?

A Star Wars outsider would of course agree that a long-standing franchise like Star Wars could use some fresh, invigorating ideas and also swerve from the formula these films were created by. For many insiders, this also worked. But for another large group of people, this subversion of expectations not only did not work, they felt ridiculed and mocked by it. You may not like that fact, and that's also fine. But don't you dare question my love of Star Wars. Disappointment can only go as deep as the love one has had in the first place. If I didn't enjoy Star Wars as much as I did, I wouldn't have felt as betrayed as I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

We've legit had it this way for 7 movies. It's fun. Let's your imagination run around in the sand box. Evokes wonder. Makes you think. I don't think there's a reason to suspect we wanted it changed.

We liked the aged wine. Then we show up to 8 and they're like here's a gallon of grape juice. And we're like dude, it's not ready yet. You need to wait.

Grape juice?  We wish it was grape juice.

Ruin tried to force-feed (pun intended) the fandom kool-aid laced with cyanide.

Unfortunately, as history tells us, some people always happy to drink the kool-aid...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Why you all banging on about TFA in a Rise of Skywalker thread - I guess a year of banging the same drum next to someone flogging the dead horse isn't enough?

I'd imagine because this is a "Rise Of Skywalker Criticism" thread.  And in order to effectively criticise something, you need to provide context for your opinion.

The context here being that the last jedi didn't leave the series in a particularly good place to move the story forward.

As the finale to a three part story (yes, three part, not nine part), The Rise Of Skywalker needed building towards in the prior chapter.  The last jedi needs to bear at Least some responsibility for this not being the case.

No doubt Ruin's kool-aid drinkers will keep their heads firmly buried in the sand and attempt to jedi mind trick this particular point of view away as "trolling" in absence of a better argument, as per usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

way to proselytize there ... there's like zero content relating to TRS in some posts, just tired old TFA criticism.  Kind of sad tbh

What do you expect? It's a topic divisive enough that state sponsored Russian trolls demonstrably chose it as one of their areas to operate, to reinforce the behavior of people like Gecko. Whatever the actual extent (because that will now be criticized) - it should give everyone pause to rethink their opinion and how they choose to express and discuss it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

way to proselytize there ... there's like zero content relating to TRS in some posts, just tired old TFA criticism.  Kind of sad tbh

So what you're saying is that it's ok for KCDodger to make a stupid, one-liner remark that also has nothing to do with ROS, but not to respond to that post?

As FTS Gecko said, in order to talk about ROS, sometimes you have to look at and talk about all three of the ST movies. You don't wanna do that? Fine. But don't tell other people what they may or may not talk about. There are many, many scenes and themes in ROS that relate directly to stuff that was introduced in TLJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

8 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

way to proselytize there ... there's like zero content relating to TRS in some posts, just tired old TFA criticism.  Kind of sad tbh

Observers opinion. Despite is incredible run time, it seems every review I see of the movie comes back with some version of "it's a lot to take in". So not only do we have to establish our context, but then critique a flood of stuff that many seem to still be digesting. But hey, here's a good opportunity! Throw us a TRS opinion thing and we'll discuss it. Or I'll take a turn.

Rey being a Palpatine actually made a lot of sense, in a VERY LIMITED way. As oxymoronic as that sentence was. And back when that was a fan theory, I thought it was stupid and insane. So that's an improvement right? I still don't really buy that item being maybe a hundred percent planned, but I have reasonable doubt that it wasn't part of the plan either y'know? Her being the only hero that matters in the end it's still ridiculous though.

To me, it makes a not of sense because Rey seems to be super emotional all the time. Like, emotional extremes, or emotionally turned off. And she's always angry when she fights. So lots of dark side there's going on there. 

And when she fights, she's very angry. Like straight pi$$ed. Like her boot to your skull. And I mean that from the choreography direction they have her go through to do her scenes. The way she fights isn't like the grim deadly intent of a combatant in the zone, it's more berserk fury. 

And.... Discuss. I'm getting coffee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

... no doubt Ruin's kool-aid drinkers will keep their heads firmly buried in the sand and attempt to jedi mind trick this particular point of view away as "trolling" in absence of a better argument, as per usual.

Called it.  😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

state sponsored Russian trolls demonstrably chose it as one of their areas to operate, to reinforce the behavior of people like Gecko.

Yeah, right. No way guys like him, me or many, many others saw the movie, felt it was **** and therefore decided to write about it online. We can't have that, right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, debiler said:

Yeah, right. No way guys like him, me or many, many others saw the movie, felt it was **** and therefore decided to write about it online. We can't have that, right? 

Of course you can, I didn't say you can't

I said you should rethink how you express that opinion, and how much of the vitriol was inspired and reinforced by malicious intent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Of course you can, I didn't say you can't

I said you should rethink how you express that opinion, and how much of the vitriol was inspired and reinforced by malicious intent.

I'm on board with that 100%. There's been so much hate and stupidity that got thrown around in these discussions, it's disgusting. I'm strongly in favor of discussing one's opinions calmly and in a respectful tone, no matter if they are positive or negative. I also try to stay away from loaded labels such as "Ruin Johnson", "Mary Sue" or "JarJar Abrams", because not only are they shallow and unfair, but their usage in a discussion also makes other people think that you are biased, rigid and not to be reasoned with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

Why you all banging on about TFA in a Rise of Skywalker thread - I guess a year of banging the same drum next to someone flogging the dead horse isn't enough?

In a sense The Force Awakens is Act One of a three act story. And as a general principle of telling stories if Act Three has problems (and even the favorable reviews of Rise of Skywalker say the film has problems) chances are that Act One has problems.

A lot of folks are blaming Act Two for the problems in Act Three. I think that is fair but as has been pointed out you can pile some of the mess in Act Two for the mess in Act One. 

If you want to make all these problems one of leadership and lay them in the lap of Ms. Kennedy, then she didn't have an appropriate plan and vision for this all the way through. I think that maybe Ms. Kennedy isn't a strong enough personality to properly direct all of her directors and even stand up to her boss a bit more. Both Solo and Rogue One had some difficulties with directors. We have a very radical change in direction between the main episodes. We have a lack of courage in parting from a trilogy format for all of this.  

I see a lot of trying to blame Star Wars fans for all of this. But the creators needed to pick a plan and see it through and take it on the chin if they didn't bring in billions and billions and make everyone ecstatically happy. And they clearly were not willing to do that. I think a lot of issue with movies these days is that for studios it isn't enough anymore to make profitable movies. Studios have to make record setting movies. They wanted Endgame level bank with ALL of these movies without doing the decade worth of film-making that makes that possible. (Look to the DCU movies for another example of this. Look at John Wick for a "smaller" film that is content to make a profit.) They confused the eagerness to wash away the prequels and see the OT heroes with having made a successful first act. 

I think what we got with The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi was not an Act One and an Act Two but two widely divergent prologues for very different takes on Star Wars. But then we got an attempt at an actual Act Three in Rise of Skywalker. So there is too much to wrap up in not enough time with a director at the helm who already doesn't know how to let a smaller more focused story breathe. JJ goes fast in hopes you won't notice the holes in the story. He is quite willing to create and tolerate holes in his story as long as it is exciting and exhilarating and shocking. And he had a story that was already as full of holes as swiss cheese. 

Act Three has problems because Act Two has problems because Act One has problems. So, yes, we're talking about The Force Awakens in a Rise of Skywalker thread. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's a topic divisive enough that state sponsored Russian trolls demonstrably chose it as one of their areas to operate, to reinforce the behavior of people like Gecko.

The eighties called. They said they'd like their foreign policy back.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...