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The Rise of Skywalker Criticism Thread *SPOILERS*

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I agree with the above!! The thing is we all have our vision on how we want Star Wars to be, BUT it’s just that our vision. So what can we do? Run to Disney and demand that they hire all of us to each make movies on what we think it should be? In a perfect world I’d love that! 

I thought the movie was very choppy throwing things at the viewer, but in the end I enjoyed it. Did I enjoy it more then the original movies well no but now that this is over I am looking forward to other SW stories that can be told. I love the Mandalorian great show. Hopefully Disney will continue to make SW content that we can all enjoy. 

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32 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Denial doesn't help, man. Acceptance that Lucasfilm released the movies and either enjoy them or not.

Sadly, that is true. those films are there to stay. Love it or hate it. 

Gene Roddenberry died during the production Season 5 of Star Trek: The Next Generation in 1991, and yet there are some that refuse to accept any Star Trek shows or films  from after his death as canon.

That being said, I understand completely the mindset of not wanting something in established lore, especially since the first six films deemed the story as "completed" by George Lucas himself. I understand the hate for the prequels, but I still personally love and appreciate them. 

Simply put, the Disney Trilogy is here to stay (Against my personal judgement), whether one chooses to accept it or no. No matter the case, people should be allowed to have their opinions.

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On 12/27/2019 at 3:19 PM, GreenDragoon said:

To resent Luke tossing his lightsaber means resenting his whole character arc in TLJ - which was one of the most beautiful parts of the movie for me.

I know we are many pages later, but I had to counter this point.

No, I give him resentment for childishly throwing his saber long after he stood triumphant, having thrown his lightsaber to the feet of the Emperor, stating to his face that he had failed, and that he was a Jedi like his father before him.

Even though Vader hadn't redeemed himself fully just yet, the fact that Luke saw good in the most dangerous being in the galaxy, his father, is touching and gives hope. 

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2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Right, OK, so if you absolutely reject other people's opinions without discussion or discourse that would make you...

...what, exactly?

To be fair to GreenDragoon, there have been e-reams of discussion on TLJ and honestly, no one is going to change anyone's mind about it at this point. 

We have our opinions, we've given our arguments (which are not always as convincing as we would like, or think they are), and I don't think there has been any new ground broken, so I get his brevity.

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6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Right, OK, so if you absolutely reject other people's opinions without discussion or discourse that would make you...

...what, exactly?

reasonably dismissing those who have demonstrated again and again how little they are willing to have an actual good faith discussion.

Or, in your case, reasonably ignoring a troll.

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

reasonably dismissing those who have demonstrated again and again how little they are willing to have an actual good faith discussion.

Or, in your case, reasonably ignoring a troll.

I would like to point out that I have not gone back and edited away any of my posts to say nothing but, "abandon thread." One of those was a nice post I even complimented.

Standing firm in one's position is not arguing in bad faith. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Standing firm in one's position is not arguing in bad faith. 

No. Pretending that Luke's arc was in any way about nihilism is, for example. That's why I quoted it to show you an example of why I don't believe you were arguing in good faith. But you just gave another example yourself, so thanks for that lol

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Can I say something? Hi. I know I'm late to the party. But this seems as good a time and place as any.

About this whole lightsaber toss thing.

Am I... The only one... Wondering why in the world we were starting the movie there? Like seriously? Was I the only one unconvinced despite the leaks before hand that any sane person would not use the time skip technique that's a signature of the saga? What bone head signed that one off?

If you had just used the time skip, none of this discussion happens. You pick up a year later. Heck go forward five years if you want. Give yourself some breathing room. If you accidentally hole the plot, now you've got a space to go fix it. 

Like Disney's in the business of making media, then marketing the merch. And they shot themselves in the foot by not leaving space between the movies to, y'know, make make stories. So you can sell more merch. As you do. Like leave some space between the bookends already.

I was looking forward to a potential cartoon series starting with Rey and Luke on that island, and then there adventures onto the Galaxy to learn and develop each other.

I get it. Buzz words of the decade "subvert expectations". Wooo. But I didn't stick with Star Wars for all these years cause they keep throwing me around. That's not an excuse to dip out on the rhythm of the saga. Using the time skip gives a sense of epic scales for epic things to happen in like full blown galactic wars. When 8 started with that I'm sitting there like, but, wait, there's only going to be so much to this story now? That's where the end caps are going?

I loved (though was slightly fussed that there wasn't more) that 7 ended on this really open note. Here. Your sword. Your father's sword. your entire existence in a single cold metallic hilt. WHAT DO YOU DO!?

Leave. The question. Open.

We the audience don't need the handholding of showing us right now. Show us the RESULT of the moment. Show us the characters years after. Let the weight of that moment be displayed in how they act now. And when we see that, and wonder about all the points that led between those two different points in time, only knowing there's this one end point in 7 and this start point in 8. More fan theories, discussion, antici....pation, FREAKING HYPE YO! That's where we'll be hanging on your finger. That's where you write the story in between... And sell merch... As you do.

Okay. I feel better now. How about you?

 

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2 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Can I say something? Hi. I know I'm late to the party. But this seems as good a time and place as any.

About this whole lightsaber toss thing.

Am I... The only one... Wondering why in the world we were starting the movie there? Like seriously? Was I the only one unconvinced despite the leaks before hand that any sane person would not use the time skip technique that's a signature of the saga? What bone head signed that one off?

If you had just used the time skip, none of this discussion happens. You pick up a year later. Heck go forward five years if you want. Give yourself some breathing room. If you accidentally hole the plot, now you've got a space to go fix it. 

Like Disney's in the business of making media, then marketing the merch. And they shot themselves in the foot by not leaving space between the movies to, y'know, make make stories. So you can sell more merch. As you do. Like leave some space between the bookends already.

I was looking forward to a potential cartoon series starting with Rey and Luke on that island, and then there adventures onto the Galaxy to learn and develop each other.

I get it. Buzz words of the decade "subvert expectations". Wooo. But I didn't stick with Star Wars for all these years cause they keep throwing me around. That's not an excuse to dip out on the rhythm of the saga. Using the time skip gives a sense of epic scales for epic things to happen in like full blown galactic wars. When 8 started with that I'm sitting there like, but, wait, there's only going to be so much to this story now? That's where the end caps are going?

I loved (though was slightly fussed that there wasn't more) that 7 ended on this really open note. Here. Your sword. Your father's sword. your entire existence in a single cold metallic hilt. WHAT DO YOU DO!?

Leave. The question. Open.

We the audience don't need the handholding of showing us right now. Show us the RESULT of the moment. Show us the characters years after. Let the weight of that moment be displayed in how they act now. And when we see that, and wonder about all the points that led between those two different points in time, only knowing there's this one end point in 7 and this start point in 8. More fan theories, discussion, antici....pation, FREAKING HYPE YO! That's where we'll be hanging on your finger. That's where you write the story in between... And sell merch... As you do.

Okay. I feel better now. How about you?

 

Agreed. Like I said, they were hardly written into a corner at the start of Part eight. For as much rehash as JJ was guilty of in part seven it would have been easy to treat that as prologue and sort it out later and just leave it hanging. JJ did leave them lots of room to maneuver. Would have somewhat been in the spirit of the old serials and pulp fiction sorts of stories that provided inspiration for Star Wars in the first place. 

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57 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Agreed. Like I said, they were hardly written into a corner at the start of Part eight. For as much rehash as JJ was guilty of in part seven it would have been easy to treat that as prologue and sort it out later and just leave it hanging. JJ did leave them lots of room to maneuver. Would have somewhat been in the spirit of the old serials and pulp fiction sorts of stories that provided inspiration for Star Wars in the first place. 

Yep.  Conversely, Rian left the director of IX almost zero room to maneuver.  Luke dead, Snoke dead, the entire remaining Resistance sat in one ship and absolutely nothing - nothing - set up for the finale.

JJ was basically cornered into a time skip.

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Well. Per my point, the time skip is what JJ would have reasonably used anyway. But from the sounds of it he still doesn't do much with it. Like, surprise it's da emperor and off we go. Like, he's not already been back for a few years? Your just now finding out about this? And your going to resolve it in the same movie you found out? What?

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23 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Well. Per my point, the time skip is what JJ would have reasonably used anyway. But from the sounds of it he still doesn't do much with it. Like, surprise it's da emperor and off we go. Like, he's not already been back for a few years? Your just now finding out about this? And your going to resolve it in the same movie you found out? What?

JJ even gave them an entirely artificial and nonsensical time limit. The whole movie takes place in something like 16 hours. Obviously also cornered into that... /s

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1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

I feel like the whole trilogy took place in 48hrs. It really doesn't have that sense of epic scales that the non Disney world versions had

It’s that racing through, action everywhere, that I found stole from that "epic" potential. It’s not like Disney is incapable of capturing epic feelings in movies, these just felt rushed. All three.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Well. Per my point, the time skip is what JJ would have reasonably used anyway. But from the sounds of it he still doesn't do much with it. Like, surprise it's da emperor and off we go. Like, he's not already been back for a few years? Your just now finding out about this? And your going to resolve it in the same movie you found out? What?

JJ used the time skip to:

  • Give Rey time to get trained, putting to bed any more Mary Sue arguments about how quickly she was using the Force and her lightsaber combat. The scenes of Rey training with Master Skywalker should have been with Luke instead of Leia but Johnson felt the need to subvert expectations and wasted what JJ setup at the end of TFA. Leia taking the role was pretty cool, but again, it just makes TLJ a wasted opportunity and contributed to RoS feeling rushed at the beginning.
  • Rebuild the Resistance into a force that had ships and soldiers to actually fight with. Johnson crippled the Resistance with a single YT-1300 and a handful of people, and made the explicit point to say that no one was willing to help them. JJ needed some time to pass to try to recover from that corner he was painted into. 

The time skip is a hallmark of the Star Wars saga and would have been sensible to use, but Johnson didn't know how to create a Star Wars movie. He's a good director, but a bad pick for this series.

Edited by kris40k

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I fail to understand why you all think a time skip was even an option after the ending of TFA

The first meeting is too important to leave it to the off screen. And I guarantee that it would have been the next Holdo maneuver of fan complaints.

You could have a flashback to any important conversation points you want to have between the two.
 

Quote

 

Rey: Master Skywalker, do you remember what you said to me when we met?

flashback, get to the ******* point, flash forward to current time

 

Just like they did to show Luke and Leia training in RoS

There was no reason to have TLJ start off directly after the ending of TFA, and is actually an unusual choice as none of the previous Star Wars movies have done that. RotJ made a point to skip any further training between Yoda and Luke and just say it happened. Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan between TPM and AotC. 

Edited by kris40k

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54 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

so y'all again just wanted it to do what every other movie did and skip time

why y'all like this

We've legit had it this way for 7 movies. It's fun. Let's your imagination run around in the sand box. Evokes wonder. Makes you think. I don't think there's a reason to suspect we wanted it changed.

We liked the aged wine. Then we show up to 8 and they're like here's a gallon of grape juice. And we're like dude, it's not ready yet. You need to wait.

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