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The Rise of Skywalker (Spoiler thread)

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I've never really been a fan of "scouring for plotholes" - every film in the history of ever has plotholes, because films are a creative endeavor and sometimes things happen because otherwise the movie would be 2 minutes. Doubly so with fantasy/sci-fi/space opera.

I rather enjoyed the sheer absurdity - a good thing! - of Palpatine's power and resources. It showed that as the last inheritor of the Sith, he basically was the ultimate BBEG. It doesn't really matter, in my opinion, how he amassed it all - or even survived - because if this dude is wielding the apex of the Dark Side and the Sith power, then yeah, it all works.

But, because I'm in the Deep Lore with Star Wars, it's entirely possible he's been working on this since the OT, using everything gathered from Thrawn's intelligence, to Imperial scientist work, to ancient lore of the Sith, to whatever else. Dude clearly plans everything beyond anyone, and was trying to play 4D chess with everyone, but couldn't see the threat right in front of him because of his hubris. 

He relied so much on the Skywalker bloodline, and the susceptibility of them to the lure of the Dark Side, that he didn't see that by casting aside his own flesh and blood, they would ultimately be what undoes him. And then said flesh and blood embracing the name of the family that played the biggest part in his final demise, including turning his own against him? Ultimate **** you.

Edited by StarkJunior

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3 minutes ago, Talkie Toaster said:

I think them retconning Poe from a New Republic pilot who defected to the Resistance to a spice runner for about 2 lines of dialogue seems like a fairly big oversight though. Like, that's a 'Couldn't be arsed to read Wookieepedia'-level screwup.

Eh, there's probably a long enough gap for him to have been both? Timelines are always a little wishy-washy with SW, so maybe they'll fix it in a comic or whatever. Didn't bother me that much, though, so.

And if you didn't read any of the comics or books, then you probably won't even care.

Edited by StarkJunior

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They probably took the MCU approach and did what was best for the movie's story in the minds of the creators rather than having to callback to something from an ancillary product that not every movie watcher will have consumed. Not a bad thing, really - working in these big franchises is always a balancing act of adhering to ALL the 'lore' or sidestepping some of the smaller things for something that fits more organically in the story.

And Star Wars has long had a habit of something showing up in a comic or book, and then having to contend with the films shifting around if/when that thing happened, too.

Edited by StarkJunior

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20 minutes ago, BipolarJuice said:

It was 'meh'. Solidly confirms the sequel trilogy and related materials to be trash. Next time they decide to reboot the universe make sure they get a single competent writer to write a trilogy not numerous people with a conflicting/no vision.

A well articulated, grounded, and well founded statement ... aren't you a barrel of Snokes... :ph34r:

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Growing up with this trilogy, I think that the film was good with some cool moments, visuals and music. My favourite parts of the film was how the scene changed during the kylo and rey fights and that leia was training to be a jedi.

But to some people, good isn’t good enough for the finale of this 40 year franchise which makes the film worse for them personally which is understandable (If avengers endgame was meh then fans would be mad).

 

At the end of the day, this movie has flaws but isn’t going to ruin your life because of it.

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I just saw Rise of Skywalker this afternoon (C.E.T.), and I liked it a lot better than episode 8.

Finally we have the explanation for why Rey is so strong in the Force, and it's a good one. And like others who have seen it, I loved that ultimate F*** You to Palpatine at the very end! :D

So much backstory is needed for some things (like who knew what at which point in the NT timeline), so I figure that novels, etc. will be used to fill those gaps/earn extra cash for the franchise.

It seems that Palpatine has populated parts of the Unknown Regions with Sith cultists. 4D chess indeed! :o And the "barrel of Snokes" ... :D

Nice to see Lando again, plus Wedge and others. It was weird seeing General Pryde (or was he Admiral?), as I'd just seen the same actor in "Hudson Hawk" yesterday (bad guy role there too, but a lot less sane).

Also, I was left wondering how they did the various Leia scenes. How much was cutting room floor footage (probably a rather out-dated term by now), how much was CG-FX, how much was stand-ins/doubles?

Hmmm ... 8.5/10, would watch again (and will this coming Sunday).

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Just now, Bellona said:

Also, I was left wondering how they did the various Leia scenes. How much was cutting room floor footage (probably a rather out-dated term by now), how much was CG-FX, how much was stand-ins/doubles?

It's crazy what you can do with stuff now - have you seen any of the Deep Fake videos made by just random people with editing tech? I'm sure the flashback scenes had some tech like in Rogue One, and they used some compositing techniques for others.

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1 hour ago, BipolarJuice said:

It was 'meh'. Solidly confirms the sequel trilogy and related materials to be trash. Next time they decide to reboot the universe make sure they get a single competent writer to write a trilogy not numerous people with a conflicting/no vision.

Definitely. TLJ left a really interesting world to play in:

  • Kylo Ren was no longer just the minion to an evil overlord striving to prove himself. He was the dog who caught the car. He finally had agency, but was still a man driven by insecurity and ego. Where would he go?
  • How does the First Order look with Snoke gone, and Kylo Ren in charge? Ren isn't a true believer like Hux or a scheming mastermind like Snoke- surely it would get messy.
  • How does the First Order/New Republic war look now? The First Order just lost the Supremacy at their moment of near-triumph, and the Resistance is depleted.
  • What will Rey's New Jedi Order look like? Luke & Yoda agree that the old Jedi Order was fundamentally flawed, what will her replacement be like now she's finally in control of her destiny?
  • How about the Resistance, most of the old guard are gone and now Finn & Poe have had a harsh lesson on the costs and consequences of command. How will they rebuild?

So many characters finally had the freedom to make their own choices instead of following the paths laid down before them and TRoS immediately took that away by having them all react to the resurrected Emperor and chase a MacGuffin for two hours.

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6 minutes ago, Talkie Toaster said:

Definitely. TLJ left a really interesting world to play in:

  • Kylo Ren was no longer just the minion to an evil overlord striving to prove himself. He was the dog who caught the car. He finally had agency, but was still a man driven by insecurity and ego. Where would he go?
  • How does the First Order look with Snoke gone, and Kylo Ren in charge? Ren isn't a true believer like Hux or a scheming mastermind like Snoke- surely it would get messy.
  • How does the First Order/New Republic war look now? The First Order just lost the Supremacy at their moment of near-triumph, and the Resistance is depleted.
  • What will Rey's New Jedi Order look like? Luke & Yoda agree that the old Jedi Order was fundamentally flawed, what will her replacement be like now she's finally in control of her destiny?
  • How about the Resistance, most of the old guard are gone and now Finn & Poe have had a harsh lesson on the costs and consequences of command. How will they rebuild?

So many characters finally had the freedom to make their own choices instead of following the paths laid down before them and TRoS immediately took that away by having them all react to the resurrected Emperor and chase a MacGuffin for two hours.

So e8 crapped on what e7 set up and then e9 craps on what e7 set up...

Not surprised.

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Just got back from it and found it cowardly.

 

There's some good elements in there and it moves rapidly. The second act is particularly fun.

However it really falls apart in the third act. It drowns itself in too much fan service and tries to mollify the worst people instead of allowing to be it's own thing. 

A lot of major plot beats aren't given time to set in, introduces abd moved on too perfunctory. A lot of the symbolism rings hollow, hoping that recognition stands in for real emotion.

It takes everything interesting about the Last Jedi and basically flattens it out. Particularly in regards to the character arcs of nearly everyone from the last movie, letting them drift on momentum.  It places old ideas over new and so fumbles what they have.

Don't even get me started on the compulsory heterosexuality.

On the whole not the worst Star Wars but still ranking low. Like around the level of the worst prequels. 

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13 hours ago, penpenpen said:

I'm thinking of making a list of "plotholes" that don't matter.

1. Lightspeed skipping. Apparently it's something you can do. Nobody seems surprised by it being possible, only that that Poe was crazy enough to do it. The downsides appear to be quite obvious. Those who are inte the RPG mindset of how hyperspace travel works might have their heads explode, but let's be honest, that way was never how the movies portrayed it.

2. How did Kylo find Rey on the wrecked Death Star? Doesn't really matter. At all.

3. Where did Palpatine get an armada and who crewing it. Squirreled away during his complete control of the galaxy? New recruits from the outer rim? Evil force zombies? Doesn't matter.

4. Star destroyers can mount planet killers? We saw repurposed death star tech in TLJ and unprecedented Sith magic in this. Marry the two...

5. Palaptine's "Final Order" are 10 000 times stronger than the First Order? It's a ludicrous number, and if it's true, it might even be a plot hole. It still doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, what he said was "a lot".

Throw away your nitpicking glasses and join in!

1) There's rules for it in Suns of Fortune already. 

2) He had the dagger for a while so probably knew the location and their intention and was able to head them off.

3) Looks like a cult he, pardon the pun, cultivated for some time even before his death. Probably gathered Imperial loyalists. Still seems a bit big without the First Orders help.  Maybe he did have cloning 

4) It a stupid sense of escalation. Wasn't even really needed for the stakes. JJ Abrahams has no sense if scale. 

5) They probably shouldn't have brought the Emperor back. You coukd easily have just made it the First Order without having to add new bits on. 

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7 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

Sounds like Disney killed the franchise. 

Nah, hardly. People have opinions, but Star Wars isn't going anywhere. (Star Wars was also dead after the Prequels, and well... yeah.) The Mandalorian is awesome, and is basically one of the best liked things since the OT, and that's Disney, too. Plus, TCW Season 7 coming, the Obi-Wan show, and the Cassian show and more movies.

It's not dead, just the Skywalker Saga is done. And plenty of people will love this movie just as they have all the others.

Disney hasn't 'killed' anything, that's hyperbolic inanity, and needs to stop being tossed around. Just because one may no longer have any interest in engaging with a franchise, doesn't mean it's 'dead' on an objective scale. Nonsense. 

Edited by StarkJunior

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23 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Nah, hardly. People have opinions, but Star Wars isn't going anywhere. (Star Wars was also dead after the Prequels, and well... yeah.) The Mandalorian is awesome, and is basically one of the best liked things since the OT, and that's Disney, too. Plus, TCW Season 7 coming, the Obi-Wan show, and the Cassian show and more movies.

It's not dead, just the Skywalker Saga is done. And plenty of people will love this movie just as they have all the others.

Disney hasn't 'killed' anything, that's hyperbolic inanity, and needs to stop being tossed around. Just because one may no longer have any interest in engaging with a franchise, doesn't mean it's 'dead' on an objective scale. Nonsense. 

Give it time.  The poison has been injected.  To quote Suljo Warde from my last gaming session, “Obi-Wan can no longer save you.”  

Our only hope is if George regains full control of Star Wars. 

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8 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

Give it time.  The poison has been injected.  To quote Suljo Warde from my last gaming session, “Obi-Wan can no longer save you.”  

Our only hope is if George regains full control of Star Wars. 

He won't - half the reason he sold it off was because of the massive backlash and hate for the Prequels. Fans sucked the joy out of it for him. (Which, again, were also supposed to 'kill' Star Wars.) Plus, his ideas for ST was basically the Quantum Realm from Ant-Man with little aliens that feed on the Force and control the galaxy... or something like that. And also Luke was a hermit just like in TLJ, because he had also failed. 

I also don't need any 'saving' nor does Star Wars. I love the new stuff, and will continue to. Thanks.

But, sure, yeah I'll write a note for my grandkids to prepare for Star Wars to die off because it got 'killed' by the IP owner because of a few movies 40 years ago, as they prepare to watch whatever new Star Wars stuff is going to be coming out for them.

Edited by StarkJunior

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33 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

Give it time.  The poison has been injected.  To quote Suljo Warde from my last gaming session, “Obi-Wan can no longer save you.”  

Our only hope is if George regains full control of Star Wars. 

Amen.

Thank god, FFG Star Wars RPG only covers the OT plus a bit prequel stuff. I stick to the rich EU, SWTOR/KOTOR and completely ignore the Disney stuff but of Mandalorian which is really starwarsy and Rogue One, which was surprisingly decent. Positive thing, I don't have to spend copious amounts of money (like I did in the past) for the new Disney Star Wars stuff (FFG SW RPG being the exception) :D

To each its own, there's plenty of space for Disney and EU lovers in this big world. I'm though curious how the box office will develope. Will it surpass TLJ or fall flat on it's face? 🤔

One can hope that Obi Wan will follow the path of Mandalorian.

Edit: not to forget, The Fallen Order is quite a decent game as well. It goes into the right direction. Great cast.

Edited by DarthDude

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This is actually revisionist history.  George didn’t sell because the fans had sucked the joy out of Star Wars for him, or any type of so-called backlash by fans.  He was already deep into production on The Clone Wars, and took an active role in development of the 1313 video game project.  By 2009 there were numerous rumors that he was returning to work on more films, and to top it off he had worked with Ronald D. Moore to develop and produce a live action Star Wars TV series... the hold up was cost.  50 scripts were fully completed by a staff of writers and pre-production was well under way.

From 2009-2011 Lucas sent Rick Berman on trips throughout Europe (specifically Eastern Europe) to find a studio where they could produce the show inexpensively.  Additionally Berman was looking for a studio to shoot the “Red Tails” project Lucas had financed... the hold up was cost.  Ultimately Lucas came up with his own solution... Grady Ranch Film Studio.  A full motion picture film studio which would have sat on a parcel of Skywalker Ranch.  It was a project he had dreamed of since the 80s, but now he had a reason to revive it.  He could still produce TV and features while keeping production costs down since he would basically be paying himself.  Additionally he’d be able to stay at home:

https://www.marinij.com/2012/04/10/lucasfilm-stuns-marin-pulls-plug-on-grady-ranch-movie-studio-project/

The plans had initially been approved in 2011 by Marin county and construction was expected to begin by late 2012/2013.  If you read Iger’s recent biography he talks about the Star Wars acquisition.  He initially began talking to George in early 2011 about selling, but Lucas made it clear he wanted to exercise control over his properties.  Lucas was simply looking for a business partner to finance his films/TV productions, not someone to take over total control.

But something changed in late 2011.  A last minute appeal by a bunch of rich locals who claimed the studio would impact traffic and ruin property values threatened to sue to stop construction.  This happened in November 2011.  Iger mentions in the book that something changed by December 2011 and Lucas seemed ready to sell.  By April 2012 Lucas pulled the plans for the studio, announced he was developing low income housing on the property, and months later sold to Disney.

That’s what ultimately drove Lucas to sell, he was done with the headaches of Grady Ranch... he had no realistic option of launching his TV show so he walked away.

Edited by Gallandro

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41 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

He won't - half the reason he sold it off was because of the massive backlash and hate for the Prequels. Fans sucked the joy out of it for him. (Which, again, were also supposed to 'kill' Star Wars.) Plus, his ideas for ST was basically the Quantum Realm from Ant-Man with little aliens that feed on the Force and control the galaxy... or something like that. And also Luke was a hermit just like in TLJ, because he had also failed. 

I also don't need any 'saving' nor does Star Wars. I love the new stuff, and will continue to. Thanks.

But, sure, yeah I'll write a note for my grandkids to prepare for Star Wars to die off because it got 'killed' by the IP owner because of a few movies 40 years ago, as they prepare to watch whatever new Star Wars stuff is going to be coming out for them.

The backlash did not come from the prequels.   The backlash came from three factors...

1. Hayden Replacing Shaw at the end of ROTJ

2.  Greedo shoots first

3. Replacing Yub-Nub. 

George’s stubbornness got him too.  The little aliens who suck the force sounds more interesting then what they produced.  At least it would have been new.  

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