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DanteRotterdam

The Rise of Skywalker (Spoiler thread)

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56 minutes ago, Talkie Toaster said:

But that conflict would totally still have been meaningful if she was a nobody. The Skywalkers were clearly her adopted family, and one she was fighting to protect and honour the memories of. Mixing in a second family legacy dilutes it; now it's not the Skywalker saga, it's the Skywalker-Palpatine saga.

I disagree completely, as @Vondy and @StarkJunior put it so succinctly, she had to be Palpatine’s descendant in order for her confrontation with him to have any dramatic impact. There had to be a connection, a relationship for the struggle to have meaning. The saga is about legacy and how that legacy affects a character and his or her choices

30 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I'm neutral on the choice of her legacy, but I disagree that she could simply be a nobody without a legacy tying her into the saga.The saga films have always been the Skywalker Saga. There is room for Johnson's meritocracy of the Force and a rise of the nobodies in the broader Star Wars franchise, but trying to go that route with the core saga showed a deep misunderstanding of the overarching themes of lineages and legacies embedded in the saga's narrative DNA. Luke's Jedi trial boiled down to the question: do I become my father or do I redeem him? And, how do I redeem him and remain true to the teachings of the Jedi? Rey being a Palpatine sets up a narrative parallelism between her and Luke. They were both grappling with legacies and the choices they had to make. Rey had to answer the question: do I become my grandfather or do I redeem my family line? And, if I am to redeem them how do I do so and stay true to the teachings of the Jedi? Having Rey choose to reject Palpatine and adopt herself into being Skywalker in the end underscores the message that lineages and legacies are not deterministic and that you are what you choose to make of yourself in a way having her be a nobody ever could.  In other words, your legacy is what you choose for yourself. That opens the door to a lot of nobodies.

Exactly. 

18 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, the ST is about found family in a lot ways. It resonates particularly deeply with my circle of friends, since a lot of us come from abusive households - physically, emotionally, or both - and we've sort of built our own family around each other.

Well said.

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20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I just found out about another Easter Egg I completely missed when I watched the movie. The Razor’s Crest from The Mandalorian is in the Resistance fleet in final battle: 

 

That ship looks different than the Razorrest. The hull looks longer.

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1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

I guess with time, we tend to surround us with people that share our opinions and it creates a kind of group thinking.

In my group of friends, most opinions range from ’good’ to ‘great’. I have one friend that didn’t like it, but didn’t think it was horrible. I have one gaming friend that sent me his opinion after first viewing it as ‘liking it’, but a couple month later he did a 180 and started giving me reasons why he hated it straight from youtube videos.

Strangest situation I had to face was in a gaming store out of town where the owner started to throw a tantrum when I said that I personally liked episode 8... it was a really awkward situation and I decided to not argue with him because it was quite embarassing... 

That is unfortunately a comon behaviour. Often people are not intressted in the reasons for other opinions or just want to throw a cool one-liner at someone. Especially in a lot of my nerd stores this behaviour is even more comon. But it happens on both sides, always and in every discussion. During the new SW movies it immediatly drifted into "everybody who likes these movies has no idea of SW" on one side and "everybody who hates this movie is against women" on the other side. Even in this thread DanteRotterdam calls me a liar as soon as something happened that he didn't want to happen.

The whole Family-Thing, legacy or not was Kind of redundant for me. Luke and Leia were both great characters, while their dad, as cool darth vader is in a fictional universe, is translated to our world would be…something terrible for sure. I mean he butchered Children, cripole, his own troops and so on.

 

And Skywalker saga? :D please. it is the ennealogy of shiev palpatine. He destoyed the republic, the jedi, several planets, he was the Motivation of everything that happened, The skywalkers? Annakin just stumbled through life all the time, rushing after his mom, his wife, then his Emperor. Luke?  Ok he did his Job in Episode 4, 5 and 6. He motivated his Father, otherwise the Rebellion would have failed, because the Emperor could have just left the death star and the imperial fleet would have still crushed the rebels. Ben? Did exactly what the Emperor expected. Did lead Rey to him and came with her, for some reason palpatine was to stupid to throw him in the pit and then the holy ghost of Christmas ehhhh of all the jedi killed him. 

And considering the Quality of writing so far, he will be back in Episode 10, 11 and 12 :D 

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I'm probably two movies too late thinking of this, but the "Final Order" fleet got me thinking of the reason behind the First Order's name. Has the reason behind the name of the First Order been delved into by any of the novels? Googling failed me.

So, we have the Final Order of Palpatine being his gigantic re-claim the Galaxy fleet. If this "final order" is supposed to be the end of a long series of Emperor's orders (as in Order 66), that makes the "First Order" very telling. Was the Emperor's Order 1 to make plans for a contingency force outside of the known galaxy in-case something went astray? Reminiscent of Zahn's novels?

"So, first order of business, what if everything goes to **** for me and my new Empire? Ok, Order 1. Secret cloning facilities and medical chambers to bring me back to life of course, secret facilities hidden away to retool an army, oh and those new Imperial Star Destroyers we are just now starting to build? I'm going to need about a 1,000 of them secretly shipped off and mothballed somewhere outside known space."

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59 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

That is unfortunately a comon behaviour. Often people are not intressted in the reasons for other opinions or just want to throw a cool one-liner at someone. Especially in a lot of my nerd stores this behaviour is even more comon. But it happens on both sides, always and in every discussion. During the new SW movies it immediatly drifted into "everybody who likes these movies has no idea of SW" on one side and "everybody who hates this movie is against women" on the other side. Even in this thread DanteRotterdam calls me a liar as soon as something happened that he didn't want to happen.

Yeah, I don't like when people tend to make big generalisation about the other person opinion, and you are right, I too have seen it coming from both side of the fence. I love discussing about Star Wars, I hate arguing about Star Wars.

1 hour ago, Seguleh said:

And considering the Quality of writing so far, he will be back in Episode 10, 11 and 12 :D 

You know, with all the mixed response to the sequel trilogy, I personally believe that we'll never see an Episode 10, 11 and 12. They'll move elsewhere or just call it something else. 

Disney Star Wars got the best overall response when it expended the universe outside the saga with Rebels, Rogue One and The Mandalorian. I don't see a reason why they would risk splitting the fanbase again by touching the saga yet again... and you know, in a way, that's kinda the feeling I got when watching Episode 9... I didn't personally feel as much love to the saga as I did from episode 7 and 8, as if Disney was like 'just let's get this over with and move on to another project...'

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1 hour ago, Sturn said:

I'm probably two movies too late thinking of this, but the "Final Order" fleet got me thinking of the reason behind the First Order's name. Has the reason behind the name of the First Order been delved into by any of the novels? Googling failed me.

Quote

Sloane likes [Armitage Hux]. But she worries about him, too.
They could colonize it all.
Their new galaxy will never have known a time without an Empire.
That thrills her.
And, indeed, it worries her, too.
"It's time to start over," she says to Hux. "That is our first order. To begin again. And to get it right, this time."
"Yes, of course, Grand Admiral. Anything you need. Glory be to Grand Admiral Sloane."
"No," she says, "Glory goes only to the Empire."
My Empire, she thinks.

-Aftermath: Empire's End, p 423

Edited by Nytwyng

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1 minute ago, Sturn said:

Well that's not near as interesting. I like my first order better. :)

 

Well, it wouldn't be the only bit of ancillary media that the movie appears to have ignored, so....

(I was thinking they might namecheck one of the First Order officers as Sloane, but she's apparently been tagged as "General Parnadee.")

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree completely, as @Vondy and @StarkJunior put it so succinctly, she had to be Palpatine’s descendant in order for her confrontation with him to have any dramatic impact. There had to be a connection, a relationship for the struggle to have meaning. The saga is about legacy and how that legacy affects a character and his or her choices

No, she didn't "have" to be (no matter what the use of Tramp Graphics Patented Semi-Random Bolding For Emphasis That Just Comes Across As Yelling Irrationally says 😉). But it's what Abrams chose to do, so we've gotta live with it. Rey could just as dramatically have been influenced by the so-called Skywalker "legacy" to stand against Palpatine, demonstrating that the "legacy" is to inspire hope and right among the everyday people of the galaxy, and would have worked with the First/Final Order's surprised realization that they were being undone not by some organized military force, but "Just...people," rather than working in opposition to that concept; nope, it's not "just...people" that make the difference, it has to be a Special. Instead, Abrams (and Terrio) chose to go the safer route and throw one of several pacifiers to those who've perpetrated fandalism for the past two years. It wasn't a choice that drives me to similar tantrums as those fandals, but it's the one choice made in the movie that I can honestly say I just don't like at all.

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4 hours ago, Vondy said:

Don't worry. I'm sure chimps will soon be canon. Lucas didn't have enough aliens for the Cantina scene in 1977 so he used an old wolfman suit from the prop room. He later edited it back out, but not before the had "Shistavanen" as a new alien species. The chimp species is on its way for sure. 

It's already been tagged as a "Symeong."

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12 hours ago, Seguleh said:

I am surprised that so many People here liked 7 and 8. Under my starwars-reallife Friends not a single one likes the new movies. all opinions were between "it is ok" and "terrible"

 

This is not meant offensive, if u enjoy them enjoy them.

In my experience, the nu-Star Wars seems more popular with people who didn't grow up with EU materials or casual movie goers. Amongst people who liked Star Wars prior to TFA, I haven't heard much in the way of praises. I wish rather than doing a sequel trilogy they just did a hard reboot, I would've found it less insulting.

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1 minute ago, BipolarJuice said:

In my experience, the nu-Star Wars seems more popular with people who didn't grow up with EU materials or casual movie goers. Amongst people who liked Star Wars prior to TFA, I haven't heard much in the way of praises. I wish rather than doing a sequel trilogy they just did a hard reboot, I would've found it less insulting.

Screw hard reboots... that’s a horrible idea, sorry. The new Star Wars is fine, the old fans need to relax.

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9 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Did you notice that a chimpanzee put that helmet back together? Not an alien that looks like a chimp, but an actual chimp.

It was as if the design team forgot to conceptualize a design for that alien and just said “just thrown in a chimp, the scene is quick, no one will notice.”

I noticed, and it made me expect Kylo to see the destroyed Death Star in the sea and say “you maniacs! You blew it up!”

 

It had some slightly yoda looking fuzzy eara on it, I think. Bu yeah, that was rather lazy and didn't really seem to serve any sort of purpose at all.

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11 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

It had some slightly yoda looking fuzzy eara on it, I think. Bu yeah, that was rather lazy and didn't really seem to serve any sort of purpose at all.

That scene was originally a backstage peak; all they did for that scene was superimpose pieces of helmet for the 3x5 cards with snippets of the plot when they were putting together the screenplay for RoS. I'm not sure if the person involved wore prosthetic ears or if they were more graphic wizardry.

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8 hours ago, Sturn said:

I'm probably two movies too late thinking of this, but the "Final Order" fleet got me thinking of the reason behind the First Order's name. Has the reason behind the name of the First Order been delved into by any of the novels? Googling failed me.

So, we have the Final Order of Palpatine being his gigantic re-claim the Galaxy fleet. If this "final order" is supposed to be the end of a long series of Emperor's orders (as in Order 66), that makes the "First Order" very telling. Was the Emperor's Order 1 to make plans for a contingency force outside of the known galaxy in-case something went astray? Reminiscent of Zahn's novels?

"So, first order of business, what if everything goes to **** for me and my new Empire? Ok, Order 1. Secret cloning facilities and medical chambers to bring me back to life of course, secret facilities hidden away to retool an army, oh and those new Imperial Star Destroyers we are just now starting to build? I'm going to need about a 1,000 of them secretly shipped off and mothballed somewhere outside known space."

It seems to have been changed now, but until TROS was released, the First Order meant order as the opposite of chaos, not order as in a synonym for command.

The First Order refered to the natural order of things: the powerful rule the weak and grind them into dust.

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14 hours ago, Seguleh said:

Hm, no the surprise stems from the needles violations of canon/common sense, a lack of creativity that is filled up with nostalgia, a bunch of lame, unfunny puns, the lack of a Story, and the 200 psykes that are now in every movie, and the lack of a competend Evil that builds any kind of threat. I love Episode 4 and 5 because there is real tension and the evil guys are intimmidating and real Drama happens. When I watched Awakening 2 days ago the whole Cinema had to laugh about the last Kylo/Rey Scene, first when his Hand came up again and then the whole revive/kiss/die Scene, because it was so... worn of?

 

but we are all between 28 and 35, maybe we are just not the targeted audience anymore

 

This is what we call being blas´e, it overlaps with, but is not equivalent to: hipster, ironic distance, cynicism, narcissism, and several other things. :ph34r: No offence intended.

That is not to say your points are not valid, within the silo you see and interpret the film from, but they could be laughable and completely invalid from someone else's silo.

I guess I'm in a silo somewhere between your extreme and the other extreme.

Still, I contend that your "surprise" at others here not aligning with you, because your friends and social network align more with you, is based on the factors I pointed to.

As for why you dislike the film, I can sort of understand some of it, yet the "canon/common sense" argument is by itself very odd, as you put these two terms together, as if that is meaningful. I see this argument as reactionary and conservative, and as such irrelevant if any new creative endeavours within this storyverse is to be attempted. Sure, there are better examples (e.g. The Mandalorian) when trying to create something new, but when keeping within an already established and more or less ended story, the options are more limited, and the way forward differently challenging. Could they have done a "better" job? Sure, perhaps, but if you were happy, others would have made a laughing stock out of your love for the movies through insinuations and arguments to popularity and authority.

Nostalgia I'll agree with, but we knew that was happening, this film, if any of the new ones, was going to be filled to the brim with nostalgia, tying it all together. Personally, I like it, but I can easily see why someone would get fed up with it.

As for humour, there we'll just have to disagree.

A lack of a competent evil? I mean. Really? I'll allow: a missing clear and understandable motivation of the BBEG, but he's no more or less competent than any other SW evil guy. That we have memories and fondness about earlier films, doesn't make him more competent, it just reveals our inexperience at the time of viewing that. That "real tension" you refer to is an example of that. I believe. Because, partly I agree, but I put that down to me being blasé, which isn't making it any easier for me to enjoy stuff. And I like to enjoy stuff, so I try to avoid cynicism and being blasé if I can. :ph34r:

Sounds like a horrible audience at that cinema. ;):ph34r: and perhaps a bit pre-teen...?

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I just don’t get the need for people to immediately grasp for the bandwagon fallacy or make an appeal to authority when arguing matters of taste. 
I personally know not a single soul who liked 2001 A Space Odyssey. I love it though and the fact that I know no one else who does means nothing to me. 
Also being part of certain subset of fans doesn’t give any more (or less) weight to your taste and/or opinions. 

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