Frustrated at ruling during a prime this weekend. (Need your opinion)

[Noliquin 3]

Hello friends,

Before I get to why I’m frustrated I think it’s important I declare 3 things:

1.       Despite having played for 2 years I struggle with remembering all the rules and commonly get confused at order of operations.

2.       I know that following all rules as written in a prime are very important to keep the integrity of the competition.

3.       I’m not a serious contender in tournaments, I’m a for fun player eager to learn in wins and loses and looking for a good time!

I traveled 4 hours to play in this tournament with friends but mostly see them hopefully win and my main personal goal was just killing a single ship in 3 games. (despite it all I did finally kill my first ever MC80)

My frustration comes in my second game in this 3 round prime where my opponent at the start of the prime was declared as a local trusted alternate judge who is knowledgeable at the game. I was excited because when I play knowledge players, I tend to learn more from my mistakes, and get a better understanding of the rules.

Let’s get to the point. I’m flying demolisher because I’m wanted to learn to fly it better and improve my skill with the ship. I have engine techs; the rest of the build doesn’t matter (to the story). I’m going speed three and I’m at medium range at the start of the demo activation. I make my attack with 2 red dice than I make my movement which has me ram the MC80 I just fired at. Placing me at close range and a shot with my side arc. I make my attack.

The issue comes when I engine tech (I have and declared a nav dial at the start of the activation), I try to make a gentleman’s agreement (which I know is where I go wrong and it's my fault for this whole thing to happen) stating “I will use my engine techs and go straight ahead and ram you, we will both take a damage” because with a speed 1 movement I have even more yaw than the first move so I’m clearly capable of the ram (I never adjust measure or lock in the maneuver tool). I than reached for my damage deck. The opponent than has an issue with my statement because if I move “straight” forward and not use my yaw I wont ram. I said, “oh well I would have turned into you for sure and made that ram like I had before”. He than asked me for the movement tool in my hand (still set for the previous movement) and showed me moving forward “straight” I wont ram him and he then locks the tool in and moves and says this is where you are now.

At this point I’m frustrated because he is using my words to move my ship. On top of that he just moved my ship without asking me. So I never locked in or fully “determined my course” but because he is more knowledgeable at the game I said “Sure I wouldn’t have moved without using my yaw but because I said “straight” I guess I have to go straight” (the issue is this puts me in range of a MC30 at close range).

He could clearly see I was bothered by it but because I’m a for fun guy I just wanted to move on, he then said “no I don’t want you to fee that I pushed you to agree with me” so he forced the judge over. I’m even more upset now because I agreed to what he said I had to do (I struggle with confrontation because of anxiety issues stemming from my military service). So, we make our cases to the judge on what happened.

My opponent made the case that because I said I would go straight to ram him and I touched the damage deck, and I had the movement tool in my hand (not over the board or ships, or even set up to go straight), and because my intent was to “only go straight” that this is what I had to do. My argument was I didn’t care but I never locked in or used a tool that I was simply trying to save time because I made the movement on this activation already.

The judge came back and I could tell he didn’t like having to make a ruling on this and felt bad but said because I used the words “straight” I had to make that movement, even without using the movement tool to show the move or even locking in.

I was frustrated because I felt the opponent used my clear lack of knowledge and used the words, I said over any actual use of the game tools against me. He than kept talking about it and the “intent” and how he is a magic judge and words really matter. This sucked the fun out of the game for me I was uncomfortable and I a turn later was tabled (because of that move) He then talked to several other players in the store between games about it making me feel even more uncomfortable when I in the first place was fine with him forcing me to move without getting a judge.

I didn’t like how this was handle, I feel I wasted my day, over $100 in travel only to be frustrated with what I feel is a wrong call because all ships go “straight forward” no ship goes backwards.

 

So, my question to all of you is:

                In Armada, do words matter just as much as the use of tools? If I say I want to attack a certain ship but before rolling any dice or using any cards I decide against it and would rather make a different shot do I have to make that first shot? Or what if I say thinking out loud, I want to fly my ship to the left, but decide after measuring and not locking in, no I want to go right, am I forced to go left? How much do words matter?

 

                Also tell me I’m wrong so I can maybe feel less upset about this because I haven’t felt so defeated in a game in quite some time now.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Noliquin

[The Jabbawookie 5,612]

This is a complicated situation to rule, and I think it was ruled badly (though only one account is given here, thorough as it may be.)

As I understand it, you declared the maneuver, but never executed it.  This is illegal, but was done for the sake of convenience.  Your opponent then locked in the maneuver tool for your ship without asking beforehand.  This is also illegal, and also ostensibly done for convenience.

 Of the two, I would consider his breach more egregious.  Technically, you aren’t even bound by any RAW here, because for a ship to execute a maneuver, “its owner” must go through the steps outlined in the RRG.  But what is important is that his actions involved suboptimal play: not investigating the joints but blindly notching in the tool.  He should have attempted to resolve the situation legally, by asking you to go through the proper steps of a maneuver.  Your declaration doesn’t matter.  Words are not binding during any part of executing a maneuver.  (Effects like Officer Ozzel should be declared, but the actual process can still be silent.)

That said, don’t cut corners in a tournament when there’s any potential for ambiguity.  It’s unfair to you and your opponent, and it’s precisely because you’re exhausted that the rules need to be followed carefully.

Also, don’t give people your tool unless they’re using it for their own ships.  I hate to sow distrust of this community, because we’re generally laid-back and super nice about such things, but exceptions exist in competitive play and other people should not be moving your stuff during your activations.

Lastly, be generous when you yourself might stand to benefit from situations like this.  “Legal” may be the bar to play at all, but “ethical” is at least as important a mark to hit.

Edited December 8, 2019 by The Jabbawookie

[antisocialmunky 40]

Remember that you can define your own enjoyment.  Don't let other people ruin things for you.  Remember that you got to hang out with your friends, you got to play in a tourney, you got two presumeably enjoyable games in, and you got to blow up your first  MC80.

As hard as it is, try to focus on that rather than this incident.

[eliteone 643]

No one should ever touch your ships, tools, cards, squads etc. without your permission. I even get tight on TTS when someone adjusts my squads health values without permission. 

[Tokra 2,147]

On 12/8/2019 at 6:15 AM, Noliquin said:

                Also tell me I’m wrong so I can maybe feel less upset about this because I haven’t felt so defeated in a game in quite some time now.

Sorry to hear this. But from what you say (if it was this way) your opponent was an idiot 😉.
Sadly we have only your side of the story here. So it is hard to judge it realistic.

This kind of "ruling" only comes up, when someone is going to lose and is trying to prevent it on all costs. And starting to become pettifogging about anything.
Your opponent should not have ruled it, but get someone who is neutral toward both players.

[JauntyChapeau 188]

I'm mostly going to echo what Jabbawookie said, above.  It's ridiculous in the extreme that the judge forced you to abide by your verbal statement of going straight ahead.  It's meaningless - what matters is what happens after the navigation tool was notched.  You didn't notch the tool, your opponent did. 

What should have happened:

• You said I'll just ET straight ahead and we both bump.
• Your opponent says "Actually, I don't think straight ahead does it.  Let's get the nav tool out."
• You say, "Oh, I guess you're right.  I'll get my nav tool out and determine the ET course."
• He says "Cool, that works."

I guess my only advice would be that when playing at a Prime or above, don't make any assumptions.  Always get that range ruler or nav tool out.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by JauntyChapeau

[Noliquin 3]

Thank you everyone for posting,

Yes, I have learned a lot from this! I did my absolute best to make sure in my post my opponent's point would be fair because I'm not hear looking for people to agree with me I'm here to learn and grow! Which I have, a lot!

I agree with the the point I need to never make assumptions or gentleman agreements at primes or tournaments where it's not full of the locals I'm used to playing with, which we play for fun and fairness. I take full responsibility for the fact this is 100% my fault to began with. Without my error I wouldn't have been taken advantage of.

To the point that I control my own enjoyment I agree! After this all went down I left the store because I didn't want my negative defeated attitude to effect my friends last game. I went had a few drinks and watched the football games I would have been watching if I didn't go to the prime at the brew house next door. I than sat in the car with my friend on  the way home and shared "combat" stories as we always do on these long trips. Aside from my horrible time during the games and feeling so uncomfortable at this game store I had a great time with my best friend!

I did kill my first MC80 and the guy had to cheat to make it out alive! To me that's a double win! I have a few friendly tournaments before my next big road trip to our next prime, I'm hoping to learn and grow and **** maybe I'll win a game at the next prime! (this wont happen! lol)

thank you all again for the help.

[Ken-Obi 381]

One lesson I've learned, too many times I might add, is to not shortcut anything for the sake of convenience except for one time (in the game) - in some games towards the end of the game it's clear to both you and your opponent that the game is going to end very soon and so I will often simply say something like "ok, it looks like the game is about over so what are the rest of the possible points".  That gets both of us into a state where we can talk it out and agree on shortcuts together to bring the game to an end where we can skip non-meaningful steps.  You can come to a gentleman's agreement like you describe.  Otherwise, if you try and take shortcuts any other time, you have to understand you will get bitten by it at some point.  I would also take the competitiveness of your opponent in mind before trying any shortcuts at any time, as well as the level of the tournament.  

Sorry that happened to you, it's really frustrating when you think you've communicated something clearly to your opponent but it ends up being received/processed differently than you intended, leading to awkward gaming.