Guess the new META: 500 point skirmish format?

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

I really don't like low point 40k.  The model count is manageable but its a game engine designed to streamline large armies and when you cut it down its just inferior to other games at that level.  40k's niche is large scale spectacle and if I'm going to play it, that's what I'm playing it for.  Humorously though, the recent Apocalypse release in many ways does that better, but the core game is fun in its own way.

If you need more than 20-100 models to make an army, use smaller than 25mm miniatures. There's not much "specatacle" in any of the 40k games I've seen played in stores in the last 20 years. Unpainted Deathguard proxied as Space Wolves just about sums up 90% of armies I've seen.

What other games work better for 50ish models right now? I still like that the games go fast. If I really want to keep track of granular details I'll use 2nd edition!

[LunarSol 1,369]

16 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

If you need more than 20-100 models to make an army, use smaller than 25mm miniatures. There's not much "specatacle" in any of the 40k games I've seen played in stores in the last 20 years. Unpainted Deathguard proxied as Space Wolves just about sums up 90% of armies I've seen.

What other games work better for 50ish models right now? I still like that the games go fast. If I really want to keep track of granular details I'll use 2nd edition!

Warmachine would be my go to.  Legion after that.  In fairness though most of my games these days are in the 10+/-5 model range these days, so 40k/AoS is more unique than I give it credit for.  Also, I don't really find 40k as big as people think.  A lot of its model count comes from specific armies like Guard or Orks.  The list I reguarly run has 62 models total, and over half of that is just the cheap guard battalion.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 minute ago, LunarSol said:

Warmachine would be my go to.  Legion after that.  In fairness though most of my games these days are in the 10+/-5 model range these days, so 40k/AoS is more unique than I give it credit for.  Also, I don't really find 40k as big as people think.  A lot of its model count comes from specific armies like Guard or Orks.  The list I reguarly run has 62 models total, and over half of that is just the cheap guard battalion.

How many points is that 62 pieces?

[LunarSol 1,369]

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

How many points is that 62 pieces?

2000.  I mostly play Deathwatch with some other Imperial stuff for support.

[BenBot 155]

I am really excited for the Skirmish format! I like the full game at 800pts but with my busy schedule I prefer the shorter time and smaller space requirements of the 3x3.

I like that the Support is capped at 2 instead of 1. And the Troop requirement is only 2. That way we can try different skew lists. I’m a big fan of the AT-RT and getting to take 2 at 500pts is lots of fun.

I also enjoy watching bat-reps of 500pt games better than the full 800pts. The full game is difficult to film well and it’s tough to spend 2-3 hours to watch one game. Skirmish matches are often an hour or less and the 3x3 is a lot easier to see on camera.

I’ve been list building for 500pts like crazy. I’m excited to see more skirmish stuff!

 

[buckero0 1,956]

The skirmish format is much more player-friendly for casual games. My son and I played 4 games over the weekend when we really haven't played  much the last couple of months.

Its easier to make a list on the fly if you only have 1 option for commander and operative and less to set up as far as terrain, troops etc

[Uetur 118]

Had a chance to play several games and the first thing I noticed is a lot of players aren't playing their main core armies, they are trying those half boxes they never played, heavy armor, etc.  A new player joined us who had purchased a half box and couldn't field an 800 point list.  So I buy in, this gets more players into the game. 

Games last about an hour or so after set up, it is easy to scoop and start over if one side is dominated.  Heavy armor is more than viable, one player played a t47 and it didn't die by turn 2.  The compressed map and closer start positions really changed the game.  Realistically your heavy hitter is attacking turn 1 or 2 pretty consistently. I played multiple games where I was out activated but tied on points because we killed the exact same number of units.  

Conversely I am not impressed by gun lines.  I need to get some more games in but they don't seem as strong as in 800 point games.

 

[Jedirev 344]

36 minutes ago, Uetur said:

Conversely I am not impressed by gun lines.  I need to get some more games in but they don't seem as strong as in 800 point games.

Aye, gunlines work by keeping your opponent at range as long as possible. 3x3 just isn't going to allow that: you can't stay beyond r3 for long; the highest damage output units in the line are easier to focus down; 500 points really limits the number of MSUs in the line; fewer sources of Impact allow tanks to function; etc.

I think it's all good for the health of the game. Means FFG have a lot of design space to play with - particularly with short threat range units, which will probably always struggle on full sized tables at 800 points.

[PikminToo 33]

I get the feeling that we will see a lot more melee focused lists as well. It's so easy to get into melee especially with characters like Luke, IRG, Grevious, wookies and Obi since abilities like charge and relentless are so good here. 

[ResoluteHusky 62]

Would the pathfinders still be effective? With scout you can cover a lot of ground on a 3x3 table and it is way less expensive than infiltrate. However it would be quite easy for them to get early support so they don't get wiped out in the first turn of the game and the short range config would help too.

[buckero0 1,956]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:36 AM, ResoluteHusky said:

Would the pathfinders still be effective? With scout you can cover a lot of ground on a 3x3 table and it is way less expensive than infiltrate. However it would be quite easy for them to get early support so they don't get wiped out in the first turn of the game and the short range config would help too.

They die just as easily. White dice are ao unreliable. I lose Jyn every game i play her in and she always has full defensive rolls (heavy cover and full Danger Sense) usually it takes 2 shots.

Pathfinders will get their red dice shots but don't let them get in LOS of more than 1 unit

Edited December 7, 2019 by buckero0

[BenBot 155]

Here’s what I think would be my favorite list:

++  (Rebel Alliance) [498 Points] ++

+ Commander +

•Leia Organa [90 Points]

+ Corps +

Fleet Troopers [67 Points]: Scatter Gun Trooper

Fleet Troopers [67 Points]: Scatter Gun Trooper

Rebel Troopers [62 Points]: Z-6 Trooper

Rebel Troopers [62 Points]: Z-6 Trooper

+ Support +

AT-RT [75 Points]: AT-RT Rotary Blaster

AT-RT [75 Points]: AT-RT Rotary Blaster

 

++ Total: [498 Points] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

[thepopemobile100 977]

1 hour ago, BenBot said:

Here’s what I think would be my favorite list:

++  (Rebel Alliance) [498 Points] ++

+ Commander +

•Leia Organa [90 Points]

+ Corps +

Fleet Troopers [67 Points]: Scatter Gun Trooper

Fleet Troopers [67 Points]: Scatter Gun Trooper

Rebel Troopers [62 Points]: Z-6 Trooper

Rebel Troopers [62 Points]: Z-6 Trooper

+ Support +

AT-RT [75 Points]: AT-RT Rotary Blaster

AT-RT [75 Points]: AT-RT Rotary Blaster

 

++ Total: [498 Points] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

The only change I'd make is for flamethrowers instead of the rotary guns to put a lot more pressure on the opponent.

[BenBot 155]

23 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

The only change I'd make is for flamethrowers instead of the rotary guns to put a lot more pressure on the opponent.

I really like the consistency of the Rotary Cannon. Though the flamethrowers would be a big threat to Trooper units at range 1, the rotary can be shooting on turn one and be a big threat to heroes and other vehicles.

I’d like to get lots of games in and try both of course!

[buckero0 1,956]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:49 PM, BenBot said:

I really like the consistency of the Rotary Cannon. Though the flamethrowers would be a big threat to Trooper units at range 1, the rotary can be shooting on turn one and be a big threat to heroes and other vehicles.

I’d like to get lots of games in and try both of course!

Mine are consistently bad which is why i like the flamethrower. I've torched sniper teams with it as well. In some scenarios, you can still torch things turn 1. I feel the flamer is even more powerful in skirmish than regular play because of the smaller playing field and taking out a whole unit and threatening the others is way more potent when resources are limited. Most skirmish armies are going to have 3-4 corps and maybe 5 trooper units. Removing an entire unit with one shot is more devastating when you have less replacements available

Edited December 15, 2019 by buckero0
Spelling

[darkjawa103 230]

Played two 500pt games last night. Both were fun games. The smaller map means you are shooting each other very quickly, some instances even turn one. Smaller map also means you have to be careful with vehicles that have to compulsory move so you don't end up flying off the map. 

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

I enjoy the 500 point format but nothing beats the full game.

On a 3x3 I feel like I have less control over how I approach my engagement with the enemy and it can feel like more like the game is decided on listbuilding or dice luck.

It is a fun way to get in more games or practice with a new combo idea  

[Kwatchi 88]

9 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

it can feel like more like the game is decided on listbuilding or dice luck.

I’m not sure I can agree with you about ‘listbuilding’ - I have won with some off the wall lists at 500pt.  From what I see,  800pts tends to be more formulaic and meta driven (even more so was that gawd awful previous 3 sniper team or you lose standard list that turned me off the game).

On dice luck though, you are right.  A good/bad swing is more evident at this level of play.  But at least you can maybe get a second game in to try cash in on dice karma.

[buckero0 1,956]

The whole game is usually bases on dice luck. X wing is the same.

I don't know how many times I've lost or won a key figure or ship due to a horrible dice roll.

Perfect position, roll average and you win the game but no, you've got to whiff.

[LunarSol 1,369]

18 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Perfect position, roll average and you win the game but no, you've got to whiff.

Rolling average is often statistically unlikely.

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

19 hours ago, buckero0 said:

The whole game is usually bases on dice luck. X wing is the same.

I don't know how many times I've lost or won a key figure or ship due to a horrible dice roll.

Perfect position, roll average and you win the game but no, you've got to whiff.

Its a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Certainly any dice game has an element of chance, but both X-Wing and Legion have token based modifications to dice. This means that action economy can mitigate your luck. Often when I hear people complain about dice luck its becuase they are doing a lot of shooting without aim tokens or getting shot out of cover with their corps units. 

[Cleto0 219]

10 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Its a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Certainly any dice game has an element of chance, but both X-Wing and Legion have token based modifications to dice. This means that action economy can mitigate your luck. Often when I hear people complain about dice luck its becuase they are doing a lot of shooting without aim tokens or getting shot out of cover with their corps units. 

100% agree, in legion especially, as it is extremely easy to mitigate the effect of luck on winning/ losing because it is an objective based game meaning I can win if 1 stormtrooper is left alive on a scoring round. 

[TheHoosh 372]

Luke double tauntauns is pretty strong in 500 points

[SailorMeni 287]

We had a small Skirmish Tournament on Sunday. What I take out of it: strong single models are even stronger in Skirmish. The Luke and Boba Lists - and even a Vader list - performed better than Rex and Leia (though double Tauntauns were no joke to play against). Still too few games and too few players for final conclusion but still a solid impression when one model can almost singlehandedly deal with an entire army.

Here are my battle reports (in German): https://sailormeni.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/star-wars-legion-rallypoint-qualifier/

Or you can read the google translated page: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsailormeni.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F12%2F16%2Fstar-wars-legion-rallypoint-qualifier%2F&sandbox=1

[Alpha17 2,853]

20 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Its a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Certainly any dice game has an element of chance, but both X-Wing and Legion have token based modifications to dice. This means that action economy can mitigate your luck. Often when I hear people complain about dice luck its becuase they are doing a lot of shooting without aim tokens or getting shot out of cover with their corps units. 

I disagree.  Most often when I complain about dice, or I hear others complain about it, variability really did win the game.  Doing everything right won't help you if you blank out all the time, your opponent blocks everything and/or rolls a ton of crits to punch through your stack of dodges and heavy cover.  Other than Tauntauns, with their free crits, nothing lets you perfectly mitigate the effects of bad rolls.  Can't tell you the number of times I've rolled blanks on red and black dice, only to reroll them into more blanks with aim  Skill can only go so far if the dice decide to crap out, and there are only a limited number of ways you can nudge them in the right direction.