Guess the new META: 500 point skirmish format?

[Kwatchi 88]

46 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

I'm dismissive of it because I have no interest in it. 

I understand you trying to shore up support for the existing competitive scene by being dismissive but it is a bog standard psychological reaction.  For hobby games that require a constantly replenishing community to be ‘healthy’, the subconscious reaction is to attack threat games in order to draw numbers away from it.  You see it in video game forums a lot.

You need to understand this is more the sorely needed gateway than a competing game system.  Even if only 1 in 10 convert to the 800 format, it is still a win for your way of thinking.  

Anecdotally I do know some local potential players who have held off of Legion because the 800 level.  The most common reason given oddly enough was ‘Why do I need to buy 2 starters to play?’.  It was non-intuitive.  Skirmish just solved this.

(Truthfully, Imperial Discipline solved this and FFG finally wised up).

——

As for army composition, I have never managed to have Fleets do much in 500pts, as they get focused down by my regular opponents quickly due to being perceived a big threat.  My 2 saboteur strike teams & Sabine list is a riot though.

And Vader is bloody scary on that small board. 😳

 

[GreatMazinkaiser 1,335]

You still need two starters to play, at least if you're playing CIS...

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

Nobody ever NEEDED two starters to play. It was just a sick deal. You could have bought a starter and built the army up from several expansions for more money. And annoyingly re-rolled the dice.

 I think the only people shocked at “needing two starter sets” were the Eurogame meeple crowd. 

[Darth Sanguis 6,327]

23 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Even if it does, it'll grow in a niche format that doesn't really help those of us who want to play the full game.

Unfortunately I think this is what we're gonna see a lot of. If I had to conjecture, the reason why X-wing is more successful than Legion or Armada has nothing to do with the game play and everything to do with accessibility. 

If we do hook some of that crowd with the new format, I doubt it will convert anyone to the 800 point format. People who don't have a couple of hours to play a game once in a while usually don't just start having the time. 

[Alpha17 2,853]

22 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

I understand you trying to shore up support for the existing competitive scene by being dismissive but it is a bog standard psychological reaction.  For hobby games that require a constantly replenishing community to be ‘healthy’, the subconscious reaction is to attack threat games in order to draw numbers away from it.  You see it in video game forums a lot.

You need to understand this is more the sorely needed gateway than a competing game system.  Even if only 1 in 10 convert to the 800 format, it is still a win for your way of thinking.  

Anecdotally I do know some local potential players who have held off of Legion because the 800 level.  The most common reason given oddly enough was ‘Why do I need to buy 2 starters to play?’.  It was non-intuitive.  Skirmish just solved this.

(Truthfully, Imperial Discipline solved this and FFG finally wised up).

——

As for army composition, I have never managed to have Fleets do much in 500pts, as they get focused down by my regular opponents quickly due to being perceived a big threat.  My 2 saboteur strike teams & Sabine list is a riot though.

And Vader is bloody scary on that small board. 😳

Still not seeing it as a win.  If 1 outta 10 play 800 points, and 1 out of 5-10 end up playing competitively, they might, just might, make up for the number of players that'll drop down to 500 points if this thread is any indication.  That's hardly a win, and at best a wash. 

And I'm still not seeing why this helps people buy in.  Aside from the Clones (and even that's a stretch) a single core set won't help really anyone get to 500 points.  Other expansions are still needed, and a second coreset is still the cheapest way to do that in the long run.  

****, do you guys not let newbies borrow extra stuff, or run smaller demo games for them?  Most of the problems mentioned can and should be easily addressed by a good community.  

 

13 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Unfortunately I think this is what we're gonna see a lot of. If I had to conjecture, the reason why X-wing is more successful than Legion or Armada has nothing to do with the game play and everything to do with accessibility. 

If we do hook some of that crowd with the new format, I doubt it will convert anyone to the 800 point format. People who don't have a couple of hours to play a game once in a while usually don't just start having the time. 

Exactly.  

 

 

 

Random thought, don't know if I've mentioned it before, but does anyone think the 500 point, 3x3 playmat format might be a cash grab by FFG?  They've been making 3x3 game mats since the game started, but they have never been popular and haven't sold particularly well because you can get a better 6x3 or 6x4 mat for less than two 3x3 mats.  Now, suddenly, there's a reason to pick up 3x3 mats.  Probably a stupid theory, but I wonder. 

[Darth Sanguis 6,327]

Just now, Alpha17 said:

does anyone think the 500 point, 3x3 playmat format might be a cash grab by FFG?

Pretty much. Hook them X-wing money bags into a second plastic crack addiction. 

[arnoldrew 1,713]

35 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Random thought, don't know if I've mentioned it before, but does anyone think the 500 point, 3x3 playmat format might be a cash grab by FFG?  They've been making 3x3 game mats since the game started, but they have never been popular and haven't sold particularly well because you can get a better 6x3 or 6x4 mat for less than two 3x3 mats.  Now, suddenly, there's a reason to pick up 3x3 mats.  Probably a stupid theory, but I wonder. 

Every single thing a business does is a "cash grab." It's literally the purpose of their existence.

[Cleto0 219]

500 point format is all about tauntauns, I mean, what isn't these days? you mean my 7 activation 500 point tauntaun list is broken? who knew haha. Let's see vader take on tauntauns my guess is vader dead on turn 3 

[NeonWolf 942]

I can see this format becoming the standard for Relaxed level events, such as the Seasonal Kits, Premium Seasonal Kits, and Store Championships FFG is supposed to be putting out now (that I haven't actually seen anything about in 8 months...).  Less points, faster play, prizes are just alt/full-art cards, get the newer players involved.  Once you hit the Prime (Regional) Championships and above the 800-point format will be the norm as these have traditionally been Formal or Premier level events.  This is a separation between "casual" and "competitive" and really, I think it's a good thing.  A "healthy" community needs both types of players and not everyone plays the game for cards or acrylic.

As for "guessing the new meta" it will depend on the location you are talking about (including TTS as a separate location).  We had a non-official 12-player tournament last weekend with only 1 Rebel player and he didn't bring a single Tauntaun.  The winning list was a Dooku-Grievous list and the breakdown was something like 6xImperial, 3x CIS, 2x GAR, 1x Rebel.  Do the results of this event change the meta?  If so, which "meta" are you referring to?

Edited November 26, 2019 by NeonWolf

[Cleto0 219]

10 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

As for "guessing the new meta" it will depend on the location you are talking about (including TTS as a separate location).  We had a non-official 12-player tournament last weekend with only 1 Rebel player and he didn't bring a single Tauntaun.  The winning list was a Dooku-Grievous list and the breakdown was something like 6xImperial, 3x CIS, 2x GAR, 1x Rebel.  Do the results of this event change the meta?  If so, which "meta" are you referring to?

Quite a bit of Imperials... the Current meta is heavily shifted to rebels vs imperials, at least for 800 points. I believe he is asking about the 500 point meta, which will be very different from the 800 point meta

[NeonWolf 942]

4 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Quite a bit of Imperials... the Current meta is heavily shifted to rebels vs imperials, at least for 800 points. I believe he is asking about the 500 point meta, which will be very different from the 800 point meta

I get that, but the point I'm making is that most people think "the meta" is this overarching thing for the entire Legion player base, which just isn't true. The "meta" at my local store and the "meta" at the game store in the town 30 miles away can be completely different than the "meta" at the World Championship, and even from each other, even though we are playing the same format of the same game.

I know that most people on here will disagree with me but sometimes I enjoy the futility of trying to change the way people think about things. 🙂

Edited November 26, 2019 by NeonWolf

[Cleto0 219]

1 minute ago, NeonWolf said:

I get that, but the point I'm making is that most people think "the meta" is this overarching thing for the entire Legion player base, which just isn't true. The "meta" at my local store and the "meta" at the game store in the town 30 miles away can be completely different than the "meta" at the World Championship, and even from each other, even though we are playing the same format of the same game.

I know that most people on here will disagree with me but sometimes I enjoy the futility of trying to change the way people think about things. 🙂

its completely true, and because the limited number of games, I don't think a meta will ever be completely defined

 

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

9 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Every single thing a business does is a "cash grab." It's literally the purpose of their existence.

"Cash grab" has negative connotations though. Not everything that makes more money by next quarter or next year is good for a business.

10 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If I had to conjecture, the reason why X-wing is more successful than Legion or Armada has nothing to do with the game play and everything to do with accessibility.

I agree. They also have a huge head start. X-Wing was the only SW game in town for awhile. Course I looked at it and immediately decided there was no way I was gonna pay $15 for Micro Machine ship, but to each their own. Gameplay doesn't actually have as much to do with sales as people think, otherwise Monopoly would be a dead product. I mean seriously that is some terrible gameplay for a game with that level of sustained commercial success.

 

[Click5 181]

1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

"Cash grab" has negative connotations though. Not everything that makes more money by next quarter or next year is good for a business.

I agree. They also have a huge head start. X-Wing was the only SW game in town for awhile. Course I looked at it and immediately decided there was no way I was gonna pay $15 for Micro Machine ship, but to each their own. Gameplay doesn't actually have as much to do with sales as people think, otherwise Monopoly would be a dead product. I mean seriously that is some terrible gameplay for a game with that level of sustained commercial success.

 

*cough* 40k *cough cough* 

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

2 minutes ago, Click5 said:

*cough* 40k *cough cough* 

Most of the issue with gameplay in mainstream miniatures games is that people forget to play it halfways like an RPG. Also 40k's not a bad game if you ignore the crazy giant power-creep models, and play 500 and 1000 point games so that the headcount of an army is actually manageable.

We played a 2000 point game of Imperial Guard vs orks (both lists were very much based on basic infantry squads) one time and it took 8 hours. This was at the end a string of 40k games over a long weekend so all the rules were fresh in our minds. Around turn 6 we started saying things like "Well that dreadnought will win that close combat eventually: let's stop rolling for that and just let it kill them all at the end of next turn" to speed things up. At hour 8 we were like "Let's call it a tie and go home, I hate rulers and dice now".

[arnoldrew 1,713]

12 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Most of the issue with gameplay in mainstream miniatures games is that people forget to play it halfways like an RPG.

A lot of us don't "forget to play it halfway like an RPG." We don't want to play an RPG and want to play a wargame. It took me a lot of unenjoyable experiences with role-playing before I finally just admitted is that all I like is combat and I'm actually a wargamer and not a role-player.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

36 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

A lot of us don't "forget to play it halfway like an RPG." We don't want to play an RPG and want to play a wargame. It took me a lot of unenjoyable experiences with role-playing before I finally just admitted is that all I like is combat and I'm actually a wargamer and not a role-player.

Depends on how you make the distinction. For example, I would say those people who figured out how to destroy machine gun nests by moving horse carts in some WWII game, don't actually enjoy wargames. They enjoy puzzles.

Edited November 27, 2019 by TauntaunScout

[GreatMazinkaiser 1,335]

I guess it depends... I'm guessing Featherstone et al were going for more of a puzzle (how can I re-fight this historical battle and change the outcome?)

[LunarSol 1,369]

I'd much rather play this level in general.  As much as I like the game, I've always felt like the 6x3 makes the game feel a little stretched thin.  A surprising number of games seem to take place on half the table anyway.  The 3x3 feels a lot more appealing.

[Alan Noir 426]

We've been playing a variant on this since the start, though we usually use 600 points in since we got more expansions. Putely because of space limitations and building up armies. We had 1 core set for over a year before buying a 2nd. 

The skirmish rules are pretty good. I do feel the objectives tend to concentrate the action a bit and the 5 rounds make it go quicker (still takes us 2 hrs). The board even feels smaller than when we play the normal conditions and objectives scaled down. Take the Hill scenarios were also pretty fun. 

[RyantheFett 532]

Just played a game in this format and I am shocked by how good it feels! The game lasted an hour and every unit got to do something. 

I do wonder if the map size is the big difference? It is definitely a go to format for quick games or if you want to test how a unit feels. The fact that games can be so quick really fixes a big issue with the 3 hours 800pt games. I can now test some crazy combo, watch it crash and burn, and then move onto another crazy combo in little to no time. Will have to play a few more to see if there are any downsides to this format.

Edited December 2, 2019 by RyantheFett

[Mace Windu 1,173]

4 hours ago, RyantheFett said:

Just played a game in this format and I am shocked by how good it feels! The game lasted an hour and every unit got to do something. 

I do wonder if the map size is the big difference? It is definitely a go to format for quick games or if you want to test how a unit feels. The fact that games can be so quick really fixes a big issue with the 3 hours 800pt games. I can now test some crazy combo, watch it crash and burn, and then move onto another crazy combo in little to no time. Will have to play a few more to see if there are any downsides to this format.

as far as possible downside some locals have speculated that units like the AT-ST will dominate the format considering the reduced map size so no where to hide from it as well as less units shooting at it with impact so far less likely to get taken out before the end of round 5.

Would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on that line of thinking. 

[LunarSol 1,369]

Luke would be my biggest concern, but in general I think it makes for a more commander focused experience, which I'm not going to claim is a bad thing.  Actually it tempts me to start Rebels holding to the 500 point format focused on Commander/Operative pairs.

[LunarSol 1,369]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:28 PM, TauntaunScout said:

Most of the issue with gameplay in mainstream miniatures games is that people forget to play it halfways like an RPG. Also 40k's not a bad game if you ignore the crazy giant power-creep models, and play 500 and 1000 point games so that the headcount of an army is actually manageable.

I really don't like low point 40k.  The model count is manageable but its a game engine designed to streamline large armies and when you cut it down its just inferior to other games at that level.  40k's niche is large scale spectacle and if I'm going to play it, that's what I'm playing it for.  Humorously though, the recent Apocalypse release in many ways does that better, but the core game is fun in its own way.

[RyantheFett 532]

19 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

s far as possible downside some locals have speculated that units like the AT-ST will dominate the format considering the reduced map size so no where to hide from it as well as less units shooting at it with impact so far less likely to get taken out before the end of round 5.

Would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on that line of thinking. 

I would maybe say it exposes a flaw with how 800pt games work with heavy units. Pretty much every guide says to just ignore/avoid the heavies as much as possible and play the objectives. Can't really do that when the map is cut in half and you only got 5 units to work with. Should be interesting when CIS gets their tank since it seems like a beast and people may start trying to take out heavies. Also heavy vs heavy battles should be pretty funny.

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Luke would be my biggest concern, but in general I think it makes for a more commander focused experience, which I'm not going to claim is a bad thing.  Actually it tempts me to start Rebels holding to the 500 point format focused on Commander/Operative pairs.

Based on my limited experience I found the small format really let every units strength and weakness show. My game was Dooku vs. generic Imperial officer and it was a close game in the end. Every unit got to do something on both sides.

My money is on 500pts will show how units could work in a perfect environment with close range units melting stuff, heaves destroying everything in their way, and most heroes really shining. FFG got lucky that the smaller format works as well as it does.