Guess the new META: 500 point skirmish format?

[Uetur 118]

Honestly if there was a game mode that said I want to change the Meta this is it.  

I spent some time going through the new objectives just to get a feel of what your gameplay goals will be.  I didn't see any objectives saying trooper unit leaders, just unit leaders.  It appears you are generally going to deploy range 3 from your opponent, which could be range 2 or 4 depending on exactly where things are placed.  If you look at an objective like control, or elimination you could build an for area of denial and as long as you get the lead it will be really hard for your opponent to come back.  1/3 of the battlefield is supposed to be terrain as well, which could mean a lot of cover.  Finally there will be less activations than a standard game and losing even a weak unit could cripple you.  There is at least one objective that gives points for units killed, more activations could mean more points for you opponent.  

I think heavy vehicles will be really strong in this Meta, they avoid suppression are hard to kill with lower activation counts and a couple of the objectives heavily favor them.  Armies that charge together could also do very well.  I think the standard gun line will be harder to pull off with the terrain and closer starting ranges.

[Welshie13 90]

Flamethrower units (snows, dewback, AT-RTs) will be super powerful as they have a shorter distance to close and can eliminate a unit in one go.

Agreed AT-ST or tank parked in the middle will be powerful as will Vader.

Might see more Scout Troopers and Fleet Troopers too.

Sabine and Bossk and Sabs bombs will possibly be more useful in a cramped field but greater chance of friendly fire too.

And of course Tauntaun!!! Dewback will be good too hopefully.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Welshie13

[Teravoc 43]

the few games ive played at this scale, I found that Boba was a beast, I guess that would mean Sabine would be strong.

Concussion Granades with Pathfinders on Short Range Config would be a problem I would imagine. You would only need to throw 1 of them to get blast on the Red dice!

Fleet troopers I feel would be very well suited in the shorter range game.  Of course Palpatine  Lots of point but by god that lightning might be something to behold.

ATST sounds like it might be strong, but I feel again Impact granades and likely close proximity to Jedi might weaken it. 

I think over watch becomes potentially a better card also.  So far with the smaller formats is, the games overall tend to be much more brutal and one-sided the games have not been Close calls in my experience. 

[smickletz 200]

12 minutes ago, Uetur said:

Honestly if there was a game mode that said I want to change the Meta this is it.  

I spent some time going through the new objectives just to get a feel of what your gameplay goals will be.  I didn't see any objectives saying trooper unit leaders, just unit leaders.  It appears you are generally going to deploy range 3 from your opponent, which could be range 2 or 4 depending on exactly where things are placed.  If you look at an objective like control, or elimination you could build an for area of denial and as long as you get the lead it will be really hard for your opponent to come back.  1/3 of the battlefield is supposed to be terrain as well, which could mean a lot of cover.  Finally there will be less activations than a standard game and losing even a weak unit could cripple you.  There is at least one objective that gives points for units killed, more activations could mean more points for you opponent.  

I think heavy vehicles will be really strong in this Meta, they avoid suppression are hard to kill with lower activation counts and a couple of the objectives heavily favor them.  Armies that charge together could also do very well.  I think the standard gun line will be harder to pull off with the terrain and closer starting ranges.

Since it is a non-competitive format, I wouldn’t expect a Meta to develop. Quick, short games that a meant for a fun experience. This allows for a bit more of a sandbox game feel where you can really experiment with units.

 

You’re right in that some units will be stronger than others simply because of the round limit, objectives, board size, and terrain coverage. But if someone is coming to our game nights looking to dominate with the “best list”, we’d probably just stop playing the format because it wouldn’t be fun anymore.

[TheHoosh 372]

Grievous is very strong at this level and can take 3 full core units and droidekas to boot

[PikminToo 33]

It is still possible for tournaments to be held with this style format. I know that the current league that my area is working through has a format similar to this based off of the old missions FFG had for a 3'3 to accommodate for the factions just starting to build armies. I think this will be a fun format and beneficial for small "for fun" tournaments because you can get more rounds done in a day. 

Like everyone keeps saying close range stuff will be great. I really think the b2 super battle droids will be amazing here, especially if you can keep them in cover (should be easy with 1/3rd of the board having terrain). The Separatists in general should be set up pretty well for this format. Overall I think it will be nice to use some units that have been sitting on the shelf for too long due to not being competitive on the larger board. 

[Darth Sanguis 6,327]

6 minutes ago, smickletz said:

Since it is a non-competitive format

Didn't they state this new mode was coming with full OP support too?

[Teravoc 43]

I was hoping they would announce rules for some kind of narrative campaign play, they didnt do that, but I feel that this is a step in the direction for that kind of play. Skirmish a few games, to define the objectives of a couple of main battles, ending in a grand army fight  I admit though I've never even tried a grand army. 1600 points a side, feels like it needs a bigger area then 6x3

[Uetur 118]

The clones could be interesting in this format as they can make interesting use of grenades with Rex, just by taking 5 or 10 points you could have a functional clone army able to pop impact grenades, concussion grenades, etc.  

[Uetur 118]

32 minutes ago, Welshie13 said:

Flamethrower units (snows, dewback, AT-RTs) will be super powerful as they have a shorter distance to close and can eliminate a unit in one go.

Agreed AT-ST or tank parked in the middle will be powerful as will Vader.

Might see more Scout Troopers and Fleet Troopers too.

Sabine and Bossk and Sabs bombs will possibly be more useful in a cramped field but greater chance of friendly fire too.

And of course Tauntaun!!! Dewback will be good too hopefully.

Bombs could be fun, I just worry that a large part of the meta will be a charging Jedi or vehicle and bombs aren't as effective here.  I kind of go back and forth on this.  

[joewrightgm 455]

B2 battledroids almost seem tailor made for this mode.  I imagine a lot of slower units with short range weapons are going to come back in vogue

[RyantheFett 532]

26 minutes ago, joewrightgm said:

B2 battledroids almost seem tailor made for this mode.  I imagine a lot of slower units with short range weapons are going to come back in vogue

I do fear that many of the closer range units will be stuck in skirmish mode and that FFG will use that as their excuse to not try and fix them. Or if certain units are made with skirmish mode in mind (B2s) and FFG tells us that was the plan.

......... Maybe I am just overthinking everything, but I am a bit confused by all this. I guess time will tell with how popular this mode/meta will be. I cannot wait to play a Legion game that will last around an hour!

[smickletz 200]

7 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Didn't they state this new mode was coming with full OP support too?

Good question, I didn’t catch an answer to it in the Live Stream, but didn’t watch the entirety of it.

Alex did say there would not be a “500 Point World Champion” and an “800 Point World Champion”. The game will still be designed with 800pts in mind.

With the old OP structure, at our store it was always the same group coming out to play so we got to know each other pretty well. If someone is being overly competitive, it tends not to go over well since we all want to enjoy our time and are not all willing to buy three tauntauns.

There’s always room for competitive play, of course, but I see this as a way for casual players to get more games in and for smaller stores to run more effective tournaments. I don’t think a 500 point competitive tournament would be as fun as an 800 point tournament, but I do think playing multiple 500pt opponents on a weeknight would be more fun than trying to fit in a full 800pt game with one person.

 

[Uchidan1 94]

I am really surprised this is news (besides the fact that it's FFG official)?

My friends and I have been playing the 500 point format since getting into Legion. Imperial Discipline made this format awhile ago and it seems it's influence caught FFG's attention because it's extremely similar (almost exactly the same). 

 

Being able to play 2-3 games in the time it takes to play 1 800 point game is fun and refreshing. 

[Alpha17 2,853]

I'm not really sure a non-competitive, alternative format will "change the meta."  If OP goes up to Store championships, it might develop its own meta, but that's about it.  The main, regular 800 point game will still have the meta that has developed over time and will continue to develop.  At best, you might get some bleed over where something takes hold in Skirmish, and then people try to adapt it for the main game. 

[UnitOmega 2,818]

There's tournament guidelines in the rules package, there's definitely some level of "competitive" here. Don't know why some people are insistent on saying it's "non-competitive".

Edited November 23, 2019 by UnitOmega

[Squark 2,555]

Going from past experiences with Steel Command's rules...

1) And Now... You Will Die is broken at 500 points. Gunlines are the only real defense against it on this small a board, and the objectives are designed to discourage gunlines. That being said...

2) I'm actually not entirely convinced gunlines are at as big a disadvantage as people seem to think as far as board size goes. Deploying conservatively means that your opponent isn't that much closer than they'd normally be; There's a reason Steel Command limited the players' ability to attack at range on the opening turn. There are a few units that might be able to close the gap quickly enough (Tauntauns, Speeders of all kinds, Dewbacks and Royal Guard under the effect of New Ways to Motivate Them or Pulling the Strings), but most units won't be able to do so. That being said, smaller boards are easier to get a suitable amount of terrain, and going that could enable more groups to break up key sightlines. Now, gunlines have their place, but I don't think this format will be the salvation of Flametroopers and Fleet Troopers the way some people think... especially since Tauntauns are what pushed flametroopers out, not the imperial gunline (although it might have if Shoretroopers had hit before Tauntauns)

Edited November 24, 2019 by Squark

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

I think I will play Legion more, if 500 becomes the new normal at stores and stuff.

[smickletz 200]

11 hours ago, Squark said:

And Now... You Will Die is broken at 500 points

It could be, but it’s too easy to plan around in this format. If it hits, it hurts. However, Palpatine won’t have the same support he would have in an 800point game because he is taking up so many of your points. 

I’ve used Sabs to prevent Palp from easily getting to a good middle position to use And Now ... You Will Die and anything with surge to crit (b/c of Guardian from Royal Guard) to soften him up. 

Savvy command card play will also help. There are only 5 rounds, so Han/Chewie can easily play Change of Plans or Sorry About the Mess twice in a game at opportune times for example.

But, anything with a force upgrade or a lightsaber certainly gets even more powerful in this format. Grievous goes nuts as early as round 2!

[Ralgon 1,005]

I think force choke/mind trick just got interesting as a way to delete/control damage dealers in a hurry (special weapons)..... and a quad stormtrooper/snowtrooper/melee specialist rush may not be silly either with their red defense...

Tauntauns will still be doing their thing...... but this makes the thunder lizard more attractive too with less ground to cover.

As far as separatist I'm thinking a commander, 2x droidekas and minimal units to basically hide and focus on objectives while the big boys make it work till b2's drop

Things don't really change for the Gar.

 

Grenades instead of special weapons may be a thing too, particularly for weak offense units

Edit : oof!!

How does veers with electro binos, bossk with tenacity, and 4x snowtrooper with flame throwers and frag grenades sound? Comes in at 499, veers throws out aim tokens to the snowies that then double move and nuke stuff.....

Edited November 24, 2019 by Ralgon

[Alpha17 2,853]

19 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

There's tournament guidelines in the rules package, there's definitely some level of "competitive" here. Don't know why some people are insistent on saying it's "non-competitive".

Tournament guidelines exist for local tournaments or store championships.  The livestream stated there wouldn't be Worlds for it, and I very much doubt we'll see anything in the RPQ/Prime Championship level or above.  Fine if that's your not your thing, but for those of us who do enjoy those levels of play, this format is a distraction and little more. 

[buckero0 1,956]

I was bashing 3PO and R2 in the other thread but they should be pretty good in skirmish

[Mace Windu 1,173]

12 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Tournament guidelines exist for local tournaments or store championships.  The livestream stated there wouldn't be Worlds for it, and I very much doubt we'll see anything in the RPQ/Prime Championship level or above.  Fine if that's your not your thing, but for those of us who do enjoy those levels of play, this format is a distraction and little more. 

There is no reason to be so dismissive of the new format, It will get more people into the game guaranteed.

The 800 point format timeframe to play a game turns a lot of potential players away, the skirmish format being considerably shorter and far more accessible to newer players in terms of terrain needed and space required is significant. Also the space requirements are far more appealing as an event format for shops with limited tablespace as well.

From a higher level tournament perspective (which you seem to be favourable to) this means that the player base will grow which is much needed in any competitive game. Naturally some of the newer players that get in for the 500 point format will move up to the 800 point format, players that would most likely never have gotten into the game otherwise. Legion from my perspective at least is not putting up event numbers anywhere near other table top games like Warhammer or X-wing. This might be what the game needs to take legion to the next level, otherwise the game is likely to fall away in the super cut throat environment of competitive table top minis games.

[Alpha17 2,853]

10 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

There is no reason to be so dismissive of the new format, It will get more people into the game guaranteed.

The 800 point format timeframe to play a game turns a lot of potential players away, the skirmish format being considerably shorter and far more accessible to newer players in terms of terrain needed and space required is significant. Also the space requirements are far more appealing as an event format for shops with limited tablespace as well.

From a higher level tournament perspective (which you seem to be favourable to) this means that the player base will grow which is much needed in any competitive game. Naturally some of the newer players that get in for the 500 point format will move up to the 800 point format, players that would most likely never have gotten into the game otherwise. Legion from my perspective at least is not putting up event numbers anywhere near other table top games like Warhammer or X-wing. This might be what the game needs to take legion to the next level, otherwise the game is likely to fall away in the super cut throat environment of competitive table top minis games.

I'm dismissive of it because I have no interest in it.  If you do, good for you.  I don't see the appeal, and I doubt the format will help the community grow quite as much as everyone expects.  Even if it does, it'll grow in a niche format that doesn't really help those of us who want to play the full game.

I also find your theory of this translating into much larger tournament number doubtful.  If the extra 300 points and time requirement of the larger game was the deciding factor in keeping people out of the game until now, I doubt that they'll suddenly hop into larger tournaments with those larger requirements after trying out the skirmish game (which, of course, isn't all that different from the Demo sized games we've been running for over a year now).  I'm sure it'll happen as people get hooked and invest more, but I doubt it'll be in particularly large numbers. 

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

I'm dismissive of it because I have no interest in it.  If you do, good for you.  I don't see the appeal, and I doubt the format will help the community grow quite as much as everyone expects.  Even if it does, it'll grow in a niche format that doesn't really help those of us who want to play the full game.

I also find your theory of this translating into much larger tournament number doubtful.  If the extra 300 points and time requirement of the larger game was the deciding factor in keeping people out of the game until now, I doubt that they'll suddenly hop into larger tournaments with those larger requirements after trying out the skirmish game (which, of course, isn't all that different from the Demo sized games we've been running for over a year now).  I'm sure it'll happen as people get hooked and invest more, but I doubt it'll be in particularly large numbers. 

I avoid tournaments like the plague but, by the time the kids are in bed and I drive to a store, an 800 point game is a challenge, to get done and back home to bed early enough, before the aforementioned kids awake at the first rays of the sun. 500 point games will probably increase my motivation to get out and play at all.

Edited November 25, 2019 by TauntaunScout