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Crimsonwarlock

Can M3A Equip Barrage Rockets

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3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Ummmmm.... excuse me, it’s a scum ship..... sooooo, where there’s a will and enough space duct tape there’s a way SIR...

I'm just waiting on the Scyck modification+title+configuration upgrade that removes the Weapon Hardpoint ship ability and adds a huge ship [Hardpoint] slot along with some wacky energy management mechanic.

2 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

That just means that Jonus is now unable to reroll dice for barrage and diamonde boron attacks. That's crazy! Will have to keep that in mind whenever I want to make a player that still plays Jonus Barrage Spam cry 😂

tumblr_mcq6lrOTiB1qfc4s9.gif

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1 hour ago, Singulativ said:

because there is no ruling about cards that have more than 1 upgrade symbol:

What ruling are you looking for exactly?

And yes. "You can equip" vs "gain [upgrade type]" is different. Its quite possible FFG did this intentionally, 

For example. If they decider to make an upgrade with a Deckbuilding Requirement of [Missile], the m3a (and t-70) would not be able to equip that upgrade, even if you added a missile to the ship. (i thought such an upgrade existed already, but i cant think of it). It allows FFG to give that ship some weapon versatility, without enabling chain reaction of combos they want restricted to more specific ship types (in this case, bombers). 

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

End of the day, though, FFG doesn't let you do it in the app.  Maybe it's a glitch, but they haven't fixed it in like a year, so almost surely not just a bug.

Whatever we want to whinge about on here, FFG doesn't let us do it.

The Sith Infiltrator has been out for 8 months now and the official app still lets me equip Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious onto the same ship.  I'd like to say that the official app is the end all decision maker, but it clearly still has bugs that will not be fixed in the current version.  Hopefully the re-worked app is better.

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24 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

What ruling are you looking for exactly?

I am looking for an explicit statement, a rule about cards with two upgrade types and how to handle them during squad bulding. (From the 1st edition and the app it is clear how it is supposed to work, but that is stated nowhere in 2nd edition.)

The attached image is the only picture about the structure of the upgrade cards and neither there nor in the text it tells you what to do when a card has two upgrade types:

„[...] an upgrade bar that shows how many and which types of upgrades that ship can equip.“

8C8704B2-553E-494D-8A8D-6929C8BC4879.jpeg

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17 hours ago, Singulativ said:

because there is no ruling about cards that have more than 1 upgrade symbol:

HLC is a [cannon] upgrade that requires 1 [cannon] symbol on the upgrade bar,

BR is a [missile] upgrade that requires 2 [missile] symbols on the upgrade bar.

But this is nowhere explicitely stated in the rules.

Indeed. On a completely different but connected chain of thought, if it ever mattered, what is Calibrated Laser Targeting? Because that one has two different icons.

Is it a configuration? A modification? Both? Neither? Does it satisfy a "you must have a modification equipped" condition on another upgrade card?

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On 11/22/2019 at 4:27 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Is it a configuration? A modification? Both? Neither? Does it satisfy a "you must have a modification equipped" condition on another upgrade card?

Perhaps cards that have two icons are considered 2 upgrades. So a card that is a config and a mod is exactly that 1 mod and one config because the card is two upgrades.

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ok, breaking this down again from a slightly different perspective. thanks for the image, @Singulativ

8C8704B2-553E-494D-8A8D-6929C8BC4879.jpe

this image is from the RR, so it's all we have to go by. lets look at what this means for other cards, using calibrated laser targeting as an example to illustrate what i mean.

Capture.jpg

at least by RAW, we know calibrated laser targeting is a configuration upgrade. we know it also takes a modification upgrade slot and for that reason, we assume it's also a modification upgrade. we don't know that it's a modification upgrade for sure, though, only that it takes a modification upgrade slot to equip it. for now, i'm going with the interpretation that it's a configuration upgrade and also a modification upgrade and that it takes a configuration upgrade slot and a modification upgrade slot to equip it. seems reasonable, even though we don't know for sure and FFG may very well rule differently in the future. don't see that happening soon, though, since there is currently no reason why they would as far as i can tell.

let's look at some other cards.

Swz41_electro-proton_bomb.png
primarily, i view this as a payload upgrade, since that's what it is RAW. since it's also takes a modification slot, i'll interpret that to mean it's also a modification upgrade (even though we cannot be 100% sure of that).

Barrage_Rockets.png
ok, this is what we're talking about. clearly, RAW and according to the RR example of proton torpedoes, this is a missile upgrade. since it also takes a second missile slot, i'll interpret it to also be a... missile upgrade?

but wait! it's already a missile upgrade. so it's just a missile upgrade that takes two missile upgrade slots. clearly, the weapon hardpoint ship ability on the scyks (image below for reference) should let you equip this, since it doesn't mention anything about upgrade slots, only upgrade types. my thoughts is that this is simply bad wording of the ship ability. i mean, no matter what, we have to follow what the squad builder says. that's sometimes troublesome, since it's pretty messy and not even always correct, but still.

M3-A_Serissu.png
(genesis red is still the coolest scyk for sure)

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I mean, even if you had a <missile> <bomb> upgrade, the wording of Hard-point would still permit it being equipped IMHO.

However, I confess, that I think this is just an inadvertent error in writing. I firmly believe that the intent by FFG is reflected correctly in the official app.

Altho..... never know.... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 

If I’m correct, it absolutely still merits an errata change to Hard-point wording or just a flat ruling in FAQ. 

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Soo... Anybody crazy enough to take a Scyck 5 barrage list to an event and get a ruling?

(I'd recommend packing a second list just in case) Cartel Barrage:

(40) Serissu [M3-A Interceptor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points: 49

(30) Sunny Bounder [M3-A Interceptor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points: 39

(28) Cartel Spacer [M3-A Interceptor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points: 37

(28) Cartel Spacer [M3-A Interceptor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points: 37

(28) Cartel Spacer [M3-A Interceptor]
(8) Barrage Rockets
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points: 37

Total points: 199

Tractor-Serisu might be a better use of points. This is the exact same cost per ship as Barrage bombers and Serisu is only 2 points cheaper than Jonus Barrage which isn't exactly tearing it up these days. With that comparison in mind I don't think there's a significant balance concern, unless I'm severely underestimating the value of Seri's reroll? Trade offensive rerolls for defensive, half health for +1 agility, failsafe for reload... Tractor might make up for the decrease in offensive capacity without red rerolls, but that's at the cost of a whole damage dealing attack...

I'd probably make that the backup list if I was taking Barrage Cartel just to make a point, except that as was suggested previously no barrage on Hardpoint = no Jonus' Barrage 😢 because wording is the same.

(43) Captain Jonus [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 51

(29) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 37

(29) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 37

(29) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 37

(29) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 37

Total points: 199

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Barrage Rockets grant red rerolls if the target is in the bullseye.

So RAW, "IF" the M3-A can't equip Barrage Rockets that means double upgrade icons cannot be reloaded, Captain Jonus doesn't work, Double Edge doesn't work, Ordanance Tubes can't equip double Icons, and Os-1 Arsenal Loadout for the Alpha Class Starwing won't let you fire them while you have a wep. disabled token.

Seems like having it not work for the M3-A makes a lot of stuff worse. It would be better for the game to have Barrage 🚀 on the M3-A.

Edited by TeamMechKillers

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3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I mean, even if you had a <missile> <bomb> upgrade, the wording of Hard-point would still permit it being equipped IMHO.

However, I confess, that I think this is just an inadvertent error in writing. I firmly believe that the intent by FFG is reflected correctly in the official app.

Altho..... never know.... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 

If I’m correct, it absolutely still merits an errata change to Hard-point wording or just a flat ruling in FAQ. 

The way see hard-points, is while it doesn't *add* that slot, it uses the hard-point slot and fills in with whatever weapon you picked. So the bomb upgrade wouldn't be fulfilled because the ship has no device slot to slot it. You cant cram 2 upgrade slots into 1 slot (hard-point). If you equip barrage rockets to a ship with 2 missile slots, that card is filled in both slots, so both slots are taken up. 

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27 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

The way see hard-points, is while it doesn't *add* that slot, it uses the hard-point slot and fills in with whatever weapon you picked. So the bomb upgrade wouldn't be fulfilled because the ship has no device slot to slot it. You cant cram 2 upgrade slots into 1 slot (hard-point). If you equip barrage rockets to a ship with 2 missile slots, that card is filled in both slots, so both slots are taken up. 

Except the Weapon Hardpoint ability doesn't actually say anywhere that it gives you a slot, just that you may equip an upgrade of that type (Being missile, cannon, or torpedo)

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2 minutes ago, Innese said:

Except the Weapon Hardpoint ability doesn't actually say anywhere that it gives you a slot, just that you may equip an upgrade of that type (Being missile, cannon, or torpedo)

Which is represented in the builder app as a slot. Its the only way they could do it without actually adding that slot type (if indeed that was their intent). 

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1 minute ago, Maui. said:

Hardpoints refer to the type of upgrade; jonus (and similar) refers to the type of attack. That's why you can Jonus a barrage rocket attack, but not equip barrage rockets on scyks.

What is it that makes Barrage Rockets a missile-icon type attack but not a missile-icon type upgrade? Both the attack-missile type information and upgrade-missile type information comes from the exact same symbol on the same place on the same card.

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17 hours ago, Maui. said:

There is no such thing as a double-missile-icon attack.

Are you sure? Where are you getting that they is such a thing as a double-missile upgrade, and that there is not such a thing as a double-missile attack?

The only references I can find in the Rules Reference(1.0.6.1) refer to single icon types for Upgrade(p20) and Special Weapon(p18). Attacks(p4&5) does not mention upgrade icons of any kind, but does reference Special Weapons which only mentions an icon in an offhand example: "Any type of upgrade card attack (such as a latest?cb=20180729023200 attack) is a special attack." (Last bullet point under Special Weapon on page 18)

If something is triggering/referencing a particular upgrade-symbol-type attack it is doing so by referencing what type of upgrade that Attack header is printed on. If there is such a thing as a "double-missile-icon" upgrade then any special attack originating from that upgrade would by extension be a "double-missile-icon" attack.

Edit/TLDR: it seems this post sparked an argument because I didn't finish my thought. Here's the conclusion: if there is no such thing as a "double-missile" attack it is only because there is no such thing as a double-missile upgrade. In order to keep interactions consistent, I like @meffo's explanation that Barrage Rockets should be called "missile and missile" rather than "double-missile".

Edited by nitrobenz
Added TLDR conclusion

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As it currently stands I do not see any compelling reasons from Rules, balance, or fluff to deny Barrage Rockets to either of the two ships with the Weapon Hardpoint ship ability o̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶O̶r̶d̶n̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶T̶u̶b̶e̶s̶ ̶h̶u̶g̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶s̶.̶

In the interest of maintaining known and accepted interactions I would lean toward allowing double-icon upgrades to interact with effects and triggers that reference either of the upgrade icons.

EDIT: I am suggesting that "double-icon" upgrades should be treated as a single of either upgrade type as appropriate. If both icons are the same I would still treat it as a single of that icon for interaction purposes.

Edited by nitrobenz
Strike through correction, added EDIT: clarification

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