Jump to content
Kaptin Krunch

High Initiative, Passive/Easy Double Mods, and 'Aces"- Problems of a Devolving Meta

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

While not quite as slippery as the Jedi positioning-wise due to his lack of boost, his i6 at low cost and ability makes him harder to run from, and it also means he hits like a ******* truck(turns out Focus+Lock+ATC every turn on demand hits hard). With his third agility, he's also more defensive, although he cannot regen. He's effectively just a warped jedi. 

Not saying you're wrong. Force is a potent thing which can make ships with it incredibly sturdy. But I think you're missing something critical in your assessment. If a force user is double repositioning, they're going to run out of force points fairly quickly. Especially if Vader is doing so. Similarly, unless your pilot is named Luke Skywalker you can't really be spending force points to mod dice every time you take a shot or get shot at.

As for regen, while you're ace is running away to regen shields and/or force points, they aren't protecting the rest of their squadron or doing damage. It's also possible for your ace to encounter someone they can't effectively run away from because they are trying to get space to regen shields (giving up an action to do so each time) and recover force points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Faerie1979 said:

Not saying you're wrong. Force is a potent thing which can make ships with it incredibly sturdy. But I think you're missing something critical in your assessment. If a force user is double repositioning, they're going to run out of force points fairly quickly. Especially if Vader is doing so. Similarly, unless your pilot is named Luke Skywalker you can't really be spending force points to mod dice every time you take a shot or get shot at.

As for regen, while you're ace is running away to regen shields and/or force points, they aren't protecting the rest of their squadron or doing damage. It's also possible for your ace to encounter someone they can't effectively run away from because they are trying to get space to regen shields (giving up an action to do so each time) and recover force points.

All of those points would matter in untimed games.  In timed, tournament games, they mostly don't.  The winning strategy for many Jedi lists is to deal a bit of damage and run away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

All of those points would matter in untimed games.  In timed, tournament games, they mostly don't.  The winning strategy for many Jedi lists is to deal a bit of damage and run away.

Exactly, and when they have regen droids, they want to run away for a few turns anyway.  So they make a good trade, run away to get back hit points and force points, and come back into the fray at 100%, having already done some damage and burned some clock time.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jarval said:

Looking at Advanced Targeting Computer, the pilots that really stand out to me as performing drastically above average aren't the Jedi.  Both the Trade Federation Drone and Captain Sear have really good cut and win percentages - they've both got a cut rate of over 30%, and a win rate of over 60%.

And I address that- It's the only generic ship that can easily double mod their shots and have enough constant mods to be somewhat resistant to Focus Fire.

Furthermore, a Sear+7 Swarm was a whopping 235 point list in the last update- That's (I believe) the largest point differential we have ever seen in an update, and it was a buff. (Next closest was Dormitz+3 Tracking Data Ups, which got nuked from orbit at 34 points of nerf.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, I know trade feds get double mods but it's via an interesting positioning mechanic (rather than just being stapled to a purple #) that makes the trade feds drone interesting and useful even if you know you're not attacking with it 

It's definitely not "easy" relative to the truly easy double mods (mainly force), though it may have been made too easy thanks to struts

Just hope that, if struts are targeted, they leave Landing Struts alone 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Fair.

If you could also avoid turning the meta into a generic spam slug fest while you're fixing these things, I'd appreciate it. Cheers.

It would be nice if triple ace lists were actually punished for jousting jousting lists though.  Between force, tokens, regen, and dodging while retaining offensive/defensive mods, most triple ace lists can head to head joust an efficiency list and make it a pretty even exchange.  Even enough that once it turns into a maneuver game they have a huge advantage.  

This one person's opinion is that if an ace list jousts an efficiency list it should be a mistake that is difficult to recover from.  Right now, it's either a slightly suboptimal exchange for the aces or it's a straight up even exchange, and that's absurd. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'll start off by saying that this is a serious post and not a way so that I can trick someone into asking what Ligma is (A notable change in subject matter, compared to my recent posts) 

Right now, the X-wing competitive enviroment is incredibly distorted, more reasonably than it has any right to be. It's generally distorted by the same type of ship, over and over again, regardless of faction. The rest of this will be explaining the source of the problem and its severity. 

High-initiative ships with acess to Reposition and passive mods/easy double mods. 

These things are everywhere. They are everywhere because they are easier to use than other types of ship, and their traditional play style allows one to take advantage of the timed game enviroment. 

Let's start with the elephant in the room, the Jedi.

I thought the Nantex was the natural predator to these types of ships?   Look how quickly they were shouted down as "breaking the game".   I've read that people don't want to play them because it makes them seem like jerks.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'll start off by saying that this is a serious post and not a way so that I can trick someone into asking what Ligma is (A notable change in subject matter, compared to my recent posts) 

Right now, the X-wing competitive enviroment is incredibly distorted, more reasonably than it has any right to be. It's generally distorted by the same type of ship, over and over again, regardless of faction. The rest of this will be explaining the source of the problem and its severity. 

High-initiative ships with acess to Reposition and passive mods/easy double mods. 

These things are everywhere. They are everywhere because they are easier to use than other types of ship, and their traditional play style allows one to take advantage of the timed game enviroment. 

Let's start with the elephant in the room, the Jedi.

Jedi are everything that I describe in the start of this post. They are/have

- High initiative, and at low cost(Plo costs 44 base, just 6 over the Jedi Knight, and only 63 with 7b. Obi is similarly cheap.)

- Passive/easy double mods (Hey, look at all of these free totally-not-1.0-Advanced-Optics-Focus-Tokens that all these Jedi have!)

- Access to repositions with minimal consequences for doing so, including double repositioning. (****, with FTC, they can even fly over a rock, reposition, and then modify their dice) 

As a foul cherry on top, they regenerate. This regeneration means that instead of the first 2 damage being inconsequential to your passive-mods/double mods ship that can very easy opportunistially arc-dodge, the first 4 damage is incosequential. For reference, that means these ships can trade shots with an X/B wing 4 times on average before they begin to care- And they very easily can choose to not trade shots with their 5 forwards, 1 hards, and init 5+ double repositioning.   They also have powerful pilot abilities that would be chassis defining on many other ships, but for the chassis of this power level, they tend to fall by the wayside and be ignored. (Seriously, look at Plo- He can let anyone token stack on demand, or steal Disarm tokens for his buddies! If that **** was a TIE Fighter, The Plofighter would see serious use)

Jedi are mostrously popular, and it's because of this soup of powerful factors, all at low cost. They both contribute to the increased amount of games going to time (Turns out leaving fights and regenerating with your 70 point ship is both easy to do and a good strategy), and the increasing spiral of bidding wars- 

Let's mention Ric Ole while we are here- He's basically Jedi Jr. He costs 46 (he takes the R2 astro), shows up into fights with his passive double mods on defense, trades shots a little bit (until he takes 2-3 damage) and then he leaves to regenerate, never to be seen again (he also screams "Chase Me!" to try to bait people" 

What about the Empire? Surely, they must be different than the Jedi. (I mean, republic, it's almost like the faction is centered around a single chassis and config)  

Not really- The most popular ship in the Empire is Darth Vader, and I probably don't need to go into depth much about how he's eerily similar to a Jedi in playstyle. It's like he's a former jedi or something....

While not quite as slippery as the Jedi positioning-wise due to his lack of boost, his i6 at low cost and ability makes him harder to run from, and it also means he hits like a ******* truck(turns out Focus+Lock+ATC every turn on demand hits hard). With his third agility, he's also more defensive, although he cannot regen. He's effectively just a warped jedi. 

What about besides Vader? Let's go to his buddy, and apparent best friend (if the games were canon at least, since you always see them together...) Soontir ******* Fel. 

Soontir is what I would like to discribe as a "Great Brand Value Jedi" - All he needs to do to beome a Jedi with a Giant Force token is bullseye something each turn. This sounds hard, until you realize he has blue hard turns and the ability to double reposition and he almost always moves last. Combined with his newfound access to the Target Lock action, and the fact that he can bullseye anything (not just what he's shooting/defending against) he gets his double mods most turns when he wants them, and as an element that jedi lack, he can get a Focus+Evade every turn, rendering him highly resistant to damage. If you take one 3-die focus shot a turn against a 3 hull Soontir with focus Evade, it takes him 17 turns to die on average- A game does not have 17 turns.

Also, 'fun' fact- Soontir Fel is 93% of all TIE Interceptors! For every squad flown with a Saber Squadron Ace, there are ONE HUNDRED squads with Soontir Fel! This is worse than Boba's ratios in wave 1!

For all this, he costs a measly 53 points. That's less than Wedge. 

Speaking of, let's talk about Wedge. Wedge is is the second most popular ship after soontir, and the most popular rebel ship. Wedge only has one of the three things I mentioned in the title/the jedi section- Cheap initiative. ****, it's not even that cheap, as he pays 7 more than Thane (Another mediocre-at-best-ship) and 14 more than a Blue. He cannot double-modify his attack or defense dice, and he has consequences for his repositioning (no mods)

 Wedge is not good as a result- He's the only pilot in the top 12 most used pilots to have a less-than-50% winrate. However, he sees the most use of all the rebel ships due to this i6- He's easier to use as he has more perfect or near-perfect information. 

Let's talk about non-limited pilots. Non limited pilots, sans a few exceptions, are laughably bad. The top 10 has one non-limited pilot, and it's Trade Federation Drone. 

Trade federation Drone used to be not good. However, FFG gave the Vulture Drone swarm lists a massive point buff in the last update- A "Modern" 200 point vulture swarm would cost 235 in the last update. Combined with this heaping of new points to work with, the Vulture swarm also has the constant stream of friendly calculate tokens to resist focus fire, and increase their own offense via double modification. However, even with all of this, it still sometimes is helped out by "Definitely not Wedge with a Dorsal Turret, FTC, and the Quadjumper ship ability"- AKA Sun Fac. 

The only other generic ships that see use in the top 50 most used pilots either are either "TFD with 2 discount hull Upgrades"(Techo Union Bomber), dedicated blockers that are expected to die (Gold Torrents, Acads), a ******* Jedi generic (Inquisitor), Turrets (TIE/SF, and I'd like to note that the ones that take Gunners do drastically worse than those that do not- It's almost like they aren't going to get shots off at those Jedi with their front arc!) and the ARC (a blocker with a gun and a rear arc, who hang out with Jedi)

After all this, we get the Cartel Maruader, the best "Generic pilot who will shoot targets to do damage" At 38, it blows past the 41 point "Barrier" that the T-65 x-wing has, and it's still just "Kinda OK". This is mostly due to the fact that as well as the jedi and jedi-esque pilots on the top of the meta, the remaining top 50 is mostly named pilots with powerful and cheap pilot abilities. One of the best examples of this is Duchess. Costing just 4 points over the Black Squadron Scout, why would anyone ever take that ship? (The answer is "They do not"- Only one has been brought to a tournament) Another good example is Tavson. Tavson costs just 6 over the SKB. 

Also, speaking of the FO, Kylo is in 70+% of all First Order lists. Its almost like he's just another Jedi. 

It's time for the Jedi to end. 

For a good visual representation of all of this data, you can go to http://advancedtargeting.computer/, a great site made by Chris "Hi Chris" Allen. You may note that the order of ships as I mentioned them was in their played-order list. 

TL:DR- Orange and Purple number too big. Pilot abilities too cheap. 

Dude, you promised!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unique pilots will always be the best. It serves FFG purposes of marketing and sales. 

Imagine the Worlds final with a bunch of generic TIEs and Zs..... lame. People want Luke, Wedge, Vader, Obi, Ani, Boba, et cetera. Names. 

This game is not about trying to recreate a picture of what might be realistic future space combat. It’s about the fantasy of the SW universe. 
 

It’s also player preference. A lot of players play the game for the text on the cards. Make a list of rules and the players want the pilots that break them.

I'm just content that every FACTION had some representation..... pshhh good luck on every SHIP, let alone every PILOT. 

FFG is closer to balance than they ever have been. And more than ever there are not Auto Win builds. 

On the competitive stage expect competitive min/max builds. Play 8 generic ties at your LGS and have fun. I just played two generic YVs (+Fenn). Hilarious! 😜

Final Point: perfect balance is impossible! 
 

Final, Final Point: I hate Jedi and how the force currently works! 😝 I wish it only modded 1 focus max. 

Edited by JBFancourt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I thought the Nantex was the natural predator to these types of ships?   Look how quickly they were shouted down as "breaking the game".   I've read that people don't want to play them because it makes them seem like jerks.   

Nantex hit mid/low initiative stuff even harder than they hit aces.  They are also aces themselves.  They are on "team ace", they just are just exceptionally good against small bases, which aces tend to be.  I've not seen a more one-sided game than a bunch of Nantex vs a bunch of low initiative ships. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unpopular Counterpoint; Aces, The Compression of Initiative, and Force/Free Mods, might very well have saved the game. 

Before pouncing on this statement, let's preface this by noting that unskilled defensive dice mitigation is bad for the overall game in terms of rewarding true proficiency. It removes the core onus of design, which is "Fly Better," and it leads to the current devolution of contests into 75 minutes slogs and chases. The rounds have gotten longer while amount of turns shorter in 2.0 (9-10 turns is probably about average)... the games go to time now almost always. This means less gameplay overall, so with less turns  to really get in meaningful engagements, those precious few need all the free mods they can get. Hence, the rise of free mods as the primary means of increasing chances of victory now take precedence over skilled maneuver selection. But still, let's discuss why....

...ACES, HIGH INITIATIVE & THE FORCE/FREE MODS IS GOOD FOR OUR GAME

1) Mistakes get made. The Force, as a game mechanic, allows a new player to have the occasional error and yet they can still feel like they have a chance to keep their beloved named ace in the game a bit longer. Few things are more discouraging to a rookie x-wing player than seeing their favorite character destroyed early. Strange as it sounds, if it happens too often in the early stretch of a new player's gaming cycle it can dissuade them away from the game long term. 

2) Speaking of Aces, new players, by and large, do NOT start playing this game to fly generics. The day a new prospective player walks into your FLGS, observes the pew-pewing, and says "Can I fly my favorite ship, a Generic Inquisitor?" yeah.... not going to happen. New players need to see named characters to draw their prospective game identity/style from, whether to faction or a pilot, and FFG shrewdly ensures this is always at the forefront of their pilot costings. Generics, quite honestly, SHOULD rarely be used in ratio to unique pilots, and usually by experienced players talented enough to turn them into Unnamed Heroes of Legend over the duration of play. 

3) This game REALLY began with Wave 3. Let's face it---there has been a wonderful influx of new players who became attracted to the game by the new factions, specifically the Republic, and FFG wisely ensured Jedi in particular would be both competitive and easy to manage. And their Star Wars was the prequels---that's how THEY learned about or became intrigued by this awesome IP.

4) Taking into account Initiative as a core element, in which FFG essentially compressed all ranked pilots in the game by 46% (1.0 having Veteran Instincts and the race to 11 as the other staple card next to PTL) created such a swell of overlaps---specifically within Initiative 5---that Pilot Abilities Matter More Than Initiative. They've become more of the "deck building" aspect of the game than actual upgrades, crazy as it sounds. And why is that good? It's because it is easier for new players to keep up with their actual pilots, rather than a dizzying array of upgrade cards and innumerable token components. 

Sense a theme here?

All of the things that we experienced players are apt to loath, (and which I am right there with you, Kaptin) allow this game to have a lower barrier to entry in terms of enjoyment and accessibility for new players to pick up. 

If we don't bring in new players, make parts of the game open and able for them to win, 2nd edition doesn't get past 48 months. All of us veterans own the ship models for the OT factions for the most part---we don't really NEED a whole lot more to play and enjoy the game. I'm one of them. I'm firmly now in OT factions and Scum as my primary, and apart from a new paintjob every now and then and the curveball release (I'm looking at you, TIE Brute, because I am one of 9 people who think Solo is a top 5 SW film) I'm not spending as much anymore. I'm a TERRIBLE target audience for the long term health of the game. We need a game and ships and options where new players can come in and feel cool. And more importantly, spend $ to keep the game financially viable. 

SO HOW DO WE GET TO STILL HAVE A GAME PREDICATED MORE ON SKILL?  

It's simple---get back to making Hyperspace second edition released ships only, with a culled ship count and with its own uniquely liberal point costing for Aces, The Force/Free Mods, and High Initiative. 

Extended is the sanctuary of the hard-nosed vets. Think Hyperspace= Basic, Extended= Advanced. Price up unskilled mitigation aggressively. That's it, really. Two variants of the game---no different in philosophy then having objectives or epic--- where in Hyperspace Regen Foresight Obi-Wan CLT is 61 points, but in Extended he's maybe, let's say 67 or something. 

6 Points isn't that much you say? It sure is to a skilled player looking to bid and put the burden of execution on their opponent. Extrapolate that uptick in costs for a few more ships, and it gets apparent real quick. 

So there you go. We need to keep the game wide open to new players now, but agreed, we need something to emphasize skill more as well. So many viewpoints, and I know mine is just one of many. 

Cheers, good topic

 

Edited by Cloaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I think over time I have started to believe alot less in point adjustments as a mechanism for the type of balance your looking for. I think rule changes and errata still need to be in FFGs active playbook. If they are not power creep becomes one of main things they can pair with pt adjustments over time.

I think I mostly agree, but point changes can fix a whole lot of meta issues. Taking the points up up up fixes problems caused by a lot of broken stuff.  7B Anakin is a type of ship you are complaining about (initiative 6, double reposition, double offensive mods, regen, still has mods after a bump) and it’s meta presence significantly decreased after the last points adjustment.  As another example, people have largely abandoned supernatural reflexes on high initiative ships due to points.
 

The issue, as has been discussed, is that it is good for a Star Wars game for the popular characters to be commonly played.  Hence the suggestion to make those pilots less good - where they are sufficiently weak to be priced for common use.

After several years following X-Wing forums, there is a near-constant anxiety about the direction of the game.  This is, I suppose, the price we pay to enjoy the benefits of a living game.  Changes keep it fresh, but changes also threaten to kill that which we enjoy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'm not saying he's garbage, but he's certianly nowhere near game-defining. His ability is a nice cherry on top, but it doesn't make up for his otherwise deficient mobility and defense. 

Wedge isn't Anakin, to be sure.  Quickdraw isn't Anakin, either.  Who cares?  Some ships have different roles.

//

But I'm not sure I get what your on about.

On the one hand, you seem to be really frustrated with large orange numbers and passive mods being too cheap.

But Wedge is a large orange number with passive mods, and you... seem mad that he's overpriced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, jagsba said:

this whole things feels like a roundabout attack on wedge

Actually, what it felt like to me was a fairly straightforward attack on Jedi.

10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

It sounds mostly like you hate how Force works.  Which, I suppose, is fair.

But The Force is what makes Star Wars Star Wars, and all 9 movies revolved around it, so space wizards need to be potent.  And they are.  But they also fly some of the most lightweight ships in the game. 

So as Vlad Taltos would say:

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

^This.  I think the Force is the real problem; at least, as it currently works.  There are two ways of changing how it works that would correct some of the errors the OP is harping on.  First, put a cost on Force use.  Have the pilots gain a strain token when they use a Force - it disappears after defense or when you make a blue move.  But it mitigates the free-modding that the Force gives right now.  Second, limit Force use.  This one could actually be corrected in-game, just as the developers have corrected how Tractoring works, to make it a bit less overpowered.  As an example, allow Force users to spend no more than one Force charge a turn on attack dice modification and one Force charge a turn on defense dice modification.  This, too, would radically alter the way that players think about how they use it, and would correct some of the issues that appear to be cropping up with regen Jedi, among other things.  I'm not saying limit the use of Force to fuel abilities, just limit it for mitigating dice variance.

5 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

FFG: We have learned that certain design items negatively impact the game, and are taking that knowledge forward into second edition. We're learning from our mistakes.

Also FFG: Hey, let's make all those mistakes again. In fact, let's make a bunch of them on a single ship. *Releases Aethersprite*

LOL 😒😝

At least they're concentrating the problems in one area, rather than diffusing them over the entire game.

12 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Unpopular Counterpoint; Aces, The Compression of Initiative, and Force/Free Mods, might very well have saved the game. 

Before pouncing on this statement, let's preface this by noting that unskilled defensive dice mitigation is bad for the overall game in terms of true proficiency. It removes the core onus of design, which is "Fly Better" and it leads to the current devolution of contests into 75 minutes slogs and chases. The rounds have gotten longer while amount of turns shorter in 2.0 (9-10 turns is probably about average)... the games go to time now almost always. This means less gameplay overall, so with less rounds to really get in meaningful engagements, those precious few need all the free mods they can get. Hence, the rise of free mods as the primary means of increasing chances of victory now take precedence over skilled maneuver selection. But still, let's discuss why....

...ACES, HIGH INITIATIVE & THE FORCE/FREE MODS IS GOOD FOR OUR GAME

1) Mistakes get made. The Force as a game mechanic, allows a new player to have the occasional error and yet they can still feel like they have a chance to keep their beloved named ace in the game a bit longer. Few things are more discouraging to a rookie x-wing player than seeing their favorite character destroyed early. Strange as it sounds, if it happens too often in the early stretch of a new player's gaming cycle it can dissuade them away from the game long term. 

2) Speaking of Aces, new players, by and large, do NOT start playing this game to fly generics. The day a new prospective player walks into your FLGS, observes the pew-pewing, and says "Can I fly my favorite ship, a Generic Inquisitor?" yeah.... not going to happen. New players need to see named characters to draw their prospective game identity/style from, whether to faction or a pilot, and FFG shrewdly ensures this is always at the forefront of their pilot costings. Generics, quite honestly, SHOULD rarely be used in ratio to unique pilots, and usually by experienced players wise enough to turn them into Unnamed Heroes of Legend over the duration of play. 

3) This game REALLY began with Wave 3. Let's face it---there has been a wonderful influx of new players who became attracted to the game by the new factions, specifically the Republic, and FFG wisely ensured Jedi in particular would be both competitive and easy to manage. 

4) Taking into account Initiative as a core element, in which FFG essentially compressed all ranked pilots in the game by 46% (1.0 having Veteran Instincts and the race to 11 as the other staple card next to PTL) created such a swell of overlaps---specifically within Initiative 5---that Pilot Abilities Matter More Than Initiative. They've become more of the "deck building" aspect of the game than actual upgrades, crazy as it sounds. And why is that good? It's because it is easier for new players to keep up with their actual pilots, than a dizzying array of upgrade cards and token components. 

Sense a theme here?

All of the things that we experienced players are apt to loath, (and which I am right there with you, Kaptin) allow this game to have a lower barrier to entry in terms of enjoyment and accessibility for new players to pick up. 

If we don't bring in new players, make parts of the game open and able for them to win, 2nd edition doesn't get past 48 months. All of us veterans own the ship models for the OT factions for the most part---we don't really NEED a whole lot more to play and enjoy the game. I'm one of them. I'm firmly now in OT factions and Scum as my primary, and apart from a new paintjob every now and then and the curveball release (I'm looking at you, TIE Brute, because I am one of 9 people who think Solo is a top 5 SW film) I'm not spending as much anymore. I'm a TERRIBLE target audience for the long term health of the game. We need a game and ships and options where new players can come in and feel cool.

SO HOW DO WE STILL GET TO A GAME PREDICATED MORE ON SKILL?  

It's simple---get back to making Hyperspace second edition released ships only, with a culled ship count and with its own uniquely liberal point costing for Aces, The Force/Free Mods, and High Initiative. 

Extended is the sanctuary of the hard-nosed vets. Price up unskilled mitigation aggressively. That's it, really. Two variants of the game---no different in philosophy then having objectives or epic--- where in Hyperspace Regen Foresight Obi-Wan CLT is 61 points, but in Extended he's maybe, let's say 67, or something. Hyperpsace Luke Gunner might even go down to 16 here. 

6 Points isn't that much you say? It sure is to a skilled player looking to bid and put the burden of execution on their opponent. Extrapolate that uptick in costs for a few more ships, and it gets apparent real quick. 

So there you go. We need to keep the game wide open to new players now, but agreed, we need something to emphasize skill more as well. So many viewpoints, and I know mine is just one of many. 

Cheers, good topic

 

Love this, @Cloaker.  I was wishing for a multiple-Like button.  These are great ideas.  Then it becomes a game with formats that different players can enjoy even more.  To draw an example from Magic: The Gathering, there are now several distinct formats that use different card pools, different banlists, and different deckbuilding rules.  I believe that if X-Wing were to more clearly distinguish Hyperspace as the "2.0 Starter Format" and have extended be "You have all the options", you'd get a much better and healthier game state, as you say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Rickwilljames said:

You and i must have very different standards pof f what is a cheap ship if you think Vader and pretty much any other High In jedi are Cheap...

While definitely not cheap, I do think there is an argument to be made that those aces are cheap for what they do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It would be nice if triple ace lists were actually punished for jousting jousting lists though.  Between force, tokens, regen, and dodging while retaining offensive/defensive mods, most triple ace lists can head to head joust an efficiency list and make it a pretty even exchange.  Even enough that once it turns into a maneuver game they have a huge advantage.  

This one person's opinion is that if an ace list jousts an efficiency list it should be a mistake that is difficult to recover from.  Right now, it's either a slightly suboptimal exchange for the aces or it's a straight up even exchange, and that's absurd. 

I agree :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all silly. Jedi and Kylo are all going up 5ish points, and Vader, Soontir, Inquisitors, and 5bro up 3.

Problem solved. This is a storm in a teapot. Sure you’re getting two actions on your ship, for the price of... 2 actions on two ships. It’s not strictly better or worse, but it has different kinds of leverage.

This isn’t even going to be a discussion in January.

 I do agree that points don’t solve everything, but they mainly fail when a card is poorly designed out the gate, such as:

• Inertial Dampeners

• Punishing One

• Jamming Beam

• Ensnare

• Juke, which should have been unique all along

I’m fine with rule changes too, but you all don’t give points costs nearly enough credit. Everyone said Supernatural Reflexes couldn’t be fixed with points, but guess what? It WAS. It’s still a decent fringe option for those that enjoy its play style, but it’s neither a busted nor a particularly strong option.

The same is true of jedi and aces. Currently they can have their cake and eat it too. Come January, hard decisions will be involved. Bank on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is a storm in a teapot

Just saying, that teapot is large enough to keep me from playing.

edit: thanks to @Cloaker for #6666! I will forever* cherish the memory and the context

*"forever" may expire within minutes

Edited by GreenDragoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Unique pilots will always be the best. It serves FFG purposes of marketing and sales. 

Imagine the Worlds final with a bunch of generic TIEs and Zs..... lame. People want Luke, Wedge, Vader, Obi, Ani, Boba, et cetera. Names. 

This game is not about trying to recreate a picture of what might be realistic future space combat. It’s about the fantasy of the SW universe. 
 

It’s also player preference. A lot of players play the game for the text on the cards. Make a list of rules and the players want the pilots that break them.

I'm just content that every FACTION had some representation..... pshhh good luck on every SHIP, let alone every PILOT. 

FFG is closer to balance than they ever have been. And more than ever there are not Auto Win builds. 

On the competitive stage expect competitive min/max builds. Play 8 generic ties as your LGS and have fun. I just played two generic YVs (+Fenn). Hilarious! 😜

Final Point: perfect balance is impossible! 
 

Final, Final Point: I hate Jedi and how the force currently works! 😝 I wish it only modded 1 focus max. 

Exactly! Could you imagine if such iconic pilots as Duchess, howlrunner, Quickdraw, redline, and whisper were unplayable? They're my favorite characters from the movies!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

Exactly! Could you imagine if such iconic pilots as Duchess, howlrunner, Quickdraw, redline, and whisper were unplayable? They're my favorite characters from the movies!

Well, they're pretty iconic in the game!

 

 

Def agree, though, that the new factions are generally much better designed Ito meaningful, skill based modifications

For all the shade that gets thrown at CiS swarm, networked calc is completely predicated on positioning (and TA-175 on death). Pava is the opposite, helping herself based on proximity to allies

Nien Nub with PA is completely dependent on your ability to red move into his ability with all the normal manuevering hazards

Resistance As need their focus for near perfect hits; ditto Finn (seriously, focus-less Finn is pathetic)

Heroic itself is FAR more effective with focus than without (it's a near guarantee that you won't blank out, but that often entails rolling FOCUS sides)

 

Even Fanatic is a test of skill, seeing how well the opponent can concentrate fire and how the FO can force split fire

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

For a good visual representation of all of this data, you can go to http://advancedtargeting.computer/, a great site made by Chris "Hi Chris" Allen. You may note that the order of ships as I mentioned them was in their played-order list.

A list of the game's most played ships starting with the setting's most iconic (and most skilled) pilots is hardly a condemnation.

If you sort that list by Average Swiss Rank (and ignore entries with less than 10 lists), in the top 40 there are:
• 2 Force-usersAhsoka Tano and Saesee Tiin.
• 11 Initiative 5+ Pilots: Tomax Bren, Han Solo [Scum YT-1300], Kavil, Ketsu Onyo, Han Solo [Resistance YT-1300], Hera Syndulla, Dengar, "Midnight", Old Teroch, Talonbane Cobra, Thane Kyrell.

Edit: Brunas pointed out that I toggled the table in reverse for this entry, it should be:
• 4 Force-users: Seventh Sister, Inquisitor, Plo Koon, Anakin Skywalker [N-1 Naboo].
• 5 Initiative 5+ Pilots: Plo Koon, "Blackout", "Null", Ello Asty, Corran Horn.

If you sort by Cut Rate (still ignoring entries with less than 10 lists), in the top 40 there are:
• 4 Force-users: Plo Koon, Kylo Ren, Inquisitor, and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
• 7 Initiative 5+ Pilots: Plo Koon, "Whisper", Kylo Ren, Lando Calrissian [Rebel YT-1300], "Quickdraw", Ric Olié, Obi-Wan Kenobi (with Soontir Fel just barely outside at 41).

If you sort by Wins (still ignoring entries with less than 10 lists), in the top 40 there are:
• 4 Force-users: Seventh Sister, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Plo Koon, Luminara Unduli.
• 4 Initiative 5+ Pilots: Whisper, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ric Olié, Plo Koon.

If you sort by Cut Wins (still ignoring entries with less than 10 lists), in the top 40 there are:
• 4 Force-users: Jedi Knight, Ahsoka Tano, Saesee Tiin, Grand Inquisitor (with Obi-Wan Kenobi just barely outside at 41).
• 5 Initiative 5+ Pilots: "Scourge" Skutu, Han Solo [Resistance YT-1300], Saesee Tiin, Grand Inquisitor, "Whisper" (with Obi-Wan Kenobi just barely outside at 41).

So by what metric are these options overperforming competitively?

Edited by Joker Two
Table corrected

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...