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Kaptin Krunch

High Initiative, Passive/Easy Double Mods, and 'Aces"- Problems of a Devolving Meta

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I'll start off by saying that this is a serious post and not a way so that I can trick someone into asking what Ligma is (A notable change in subject matter, compared to my recent posts) 

Right now, the X-wing competitive enviroment is incredibly distorted, more reasonably than it has any right to be. It's generally distorted by the same type of ship, over and over again, regardless of faction. The rest of this will be explaining the source of the problem and its severity. 

High-initiative ships with acess to Reposition and passive mods/easy double mods. 

These things are everywhere. They are everywhere because they are easier to use than other types of ship, and their traditional play style allows one to take advantage of the timed game enviroment. 

Let's start with the elephant in the room, the Jedi.

Jedi are everything that I describe in the start of this post. They are/have

- High initiative, and at low cost(Plo costs 44 base, just 6 over the Jedi Knight, and only 63 with 7b. Obi is similarly cheap.)

- Passive/easy double mods (Hey, look at all of these free totally-not-1.0-Advanced-Optics-Focus-Tokens that all these Jedi have!)

- Access to repositions with minimal consequences for doing so, including double repositioning. (****, with FTC, they can even fly over a rock, reposition, and then modify their dice) 

As a foul cherry on top, they regenerate. This regeneration means that instead of the first 2 damage being inconsequential to your passive-mods/double mods ship that can very easy opportunistially arc-dodge, the first 4 damage is incosequential. For reference, that means these ships can trade shots with an X/B wing 4 times on average before they begin to care- And they very easily can choose to not trade shots with their 5 forwards, 1 hards, and init 5+ double repositioning.   They also have powerful pilot abilities that would be chassis defining on many other ships, but for the chassis of this power level, they tend to fall by the wayside and be ignored. (Seriously, look at Plo- He can let anyone token stack on demand, or steal Disarm tokens for his buddies! If that **** was a TIE Fighter, The Plofighter would see serious use)

Jedi are mostrously popular, and it's because of this soup of powerful factors, all at low cost. They both contribute to the increased amount of games going to time (Turns out leaving fights and regenerating with your 70 point ship is both easy to do and a good strategy), and the increasing spiral of bidding wars- 

Let's mention Ric Ole while we are here- He's basically Jedi Jr. He costs 46 (he takes the R2 astro), shows up into fights with his passive double mods on defense, trades shots a little bit (until he takes 2-3 damage) and then he leaves to regenerate, never to be seen again (he also screams "Chase Me!" to try to bait people" 

What about the Empire? Surely, they must be different than the Jedi. (I mean, republic, it's almost like the faction is centered around a single chassis and config)  

Not really- The most popular ship in the Empire is Darth Vader, and I probably don't need to go into depth much about how he's eerily similar to a Jedi in playstyle. It's like he's a former jedi or something....

While not quite as slippery as the Jedi positioning-wise due to his lack of boost, his i6 at low cost and ability makes him harder to run from, and it also means he hits like a ******* truck(turns out Focus+Lock+ATC every turn on demand hits hard). With his third agility, he's also more defensive, although he cannot regen. He's effectively just a warped jedi. 

What about besides Vader? Let's go to his buddy, and apparent best friend (if the games were canon at least, since you always see them together...) Soontir ******* Fel. 

Soontir is what I would like to discribe as a "Great Brand Value Jedi" - All he needs to do to beome a Jedi with a Giant Force token is bullseye something each turn. This sounds hard, until you realize he has blue hard turns and the ability to double reposition and he almost always moves last. Combined with his newfound access to the Target Lock action, and the fact that he can bullseye anything (not just what he's shooting/defending against) he gets his double mods most turns when he wants them, and as an element that jedi lack, he can get a Focus+Evade every turn, rendering him highly resistant to damage. If you take one 3-die focus shot a turn against a 3 hull Soontir with focus Evade, it takes him 17 turns to die on average- A game does not have 17 turns.

Also, 'fun' fact- Soontir Fel is 93% of all TIE Interceptors! For every squad flown with a Saber Squadron Ace, there are ONE HUNDRED squads with Soontir Fel! This is worse than Boba's ratios in wave 1!

For all this, he costs a measly 53 points. That's less than Wedge. 

Speaking of, let's talk about Wedge. Wedge is is the second most popular ship after soontir, and the most popular rebel ship. Wedge only has one of the three things I mentioned in the title/the jedi section- Cheap initiative. ****, it's not even that cheap, as he pays 7 more than Thane (Another mediocre-at-best-ship) and 14 more than a Blue. He cannot double-modify his attack or defense dice, and he has consequences for his repositioning (no mods)

 Wedge is not good as a result- He's the only pilot in the top 12 most used pilots to have a less-than-50% winrate. However, he sees the most use of all the rebel ships due to this i6- He's easier to use as he has more perfect or near-perfect information. 

Let's talk about non-limited pilots. Non limited pilots, sans a few exceptions, are laughably bad. The top 10 has one non-limited pilot, and it's Trade Federation Drone. 

Trade federation Drone used to be not good. However, FFG gave the Vulture Drone swarm lists a massive point buff in the last update- A "Modern" 200 point vulture swarm would cost 235 in the last update. Combined with this heaping of new points to work with, the Vulture swarm also has the constant stream of friendly calculate tokens to resist focus fire, and increase their own offense via double modification. However, even with all of this, it still sometimes is helped out by "Definitely not Wedge with a Dorsal Turret, FTC, and the Quadjumper ship ability"- AKA Sun Fac. 

The only other generic ships that see use in the top 50 most used pilots either are either "TFD with 2 discount hull Upgrades"(Techo Union Bomber), dedicated blockers that are expected to die (Gold Torrents, Acads), a ******* Jedi generic (Inquisitor), Turrets (TIE/SF, and I'd like to note that the ones that take Gunners do drastically worse than those that do not- It's almost like they aren't going to get shots off at those Jedi with their front arc!) and the ARC (a blocker with a gun and a rear arc, who hang out with Jedi)

After all this, we get the Cartel Maruader, the best "Generic pilot who will shoot targets to do damage" At 38, it blows past the 41 point "Barrier" that the T-65 x-wing has, and it's still just "Kinda OK". This is mostly due to the fact that as well as the jedi and jedi-esque pilots on the top of the meta, the remaining top 50 is mostly named pilots with powerful and cheap pilot abilities. One of the best examples of this is Duchess. Costing just 4 points over the Black Squadron Scout, why would anyone ever take that ship? (The answer is "They do not"- Only one has been brought to a tournament) Another good example is Tavson. Tavson costs just 6 over the SKB. 

Also, speaking of the FO, Kylo is in 70+% of all First Order lists. Its almost like he's just another Jedi. 

It's time for the Jedi to end. 

For a good visual representation of all of this data, you can go to http://advancedtargeting.computer/, a great site made by Chris "Hi Chris" Allen. You may note that the order of ships as I mentioned them was in their played-order list. 

TL:DR- Orange and Purple number too big. Pilot abilities too cheap. 

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37 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'll start off by saying that this is a serious post and not a way so that I can trick someone into asking what Ligma is (A notable change in subject matter, compared to my recent posts) 

Right now, the X-wing competitive enviroment is incredibly distorted, more reasonably than it has any right to be. It's generally distorted by the same type of ship, over and over again, regardless of faction. The rest of this will be explaining the source of the problem and its severity. 

High-initiative ships with acess to Reposition and passive mods/easy double mods. 

These things are everywhere. They are everywhere because they are easier to use than other types of ship, and their traditional play style allows one to take advantage of the timed game enviroment. 

Let's start with the elephant in the room, the Jedi.

Jedi are everything that I describe in the start of this post. They are/have

- High initiative, and at low cost(Plo costs 44 base, just 6 over the Jedi Knight, and only 63 with 7b. Obi is similarly cheap.)

- Passive/easy double mods (Hey, look at all of these free totally-not-1.0-Advanced-Optics-Focus-Tokens that all these Jedi have!)

- Access to repositions with minimal consequences for doing so, including double repositioning. (****, with FTC, they can even fly over a rock, reposition, and then modify their dice) 

As a foul cherry on top, they regenerate. This regeneration means that instead of the first 2 damage being inconsequential to your passive-mods/double mods ship that can very easy opportunistially arc-dodge, the first 4 damage is incosequential. For reference, that means these ships can trade shots with an X/B wing 4 times on average before they begin to care- And they very easily can choose to not trade shots with their 5 forwards, 1 hards, and init 5+ double repositioning.   They also have powerful pilot abilities that would be chassis defining on many other ships, but for the chassis of this power level, they tend to fall by the wayside and be ignored. (Seriously, look at Plo- He can let anyone token stack on demand, or steal Disarm tokens for his buddies! If that **** was a TIE Fighter, The Plofighter would see serious use)

Jedi are mostrously popular, and it's because of this soup of powerful factors, all at low cost. They both contribute to the increased amount of games going to time (Turns out leaving fights and regenerating with your 70 point ship is both easy to do and a good strategy), and the increasing spiral of bidding wars- 

Let's mention Ric Ole while we are here- He's basically Jedi Jr. He costs 46 (he takes the R2 astro), shows up into fights with his passive double mods on defense, trades shots a little bit (until he takes 2-3 damage) and then he leaves to regenerate, never to be seen again (he also screams "Chase Me!" to try to bait people" 

What about the Empire? Surely, they must be different than the Jedi. (I mean, republic, it's almost like the faction is centered around a single chassis and config)  

Not really- The most popular ship in the Empire is Darth Vader, and I probably don't need to go into depth much about how he's eerily similar to a Jedi in playstyle. It's like he's a former jedi or something....

While not quite as slippery as the Jedi positioning-wise due to his lack of boost, his i6 at low cost and ability makes him harder to run from, and it also means he hits like a ******* truck(turns out Focus+Lock+ATC every turn on demand hits hard). With his third agility, he's also more defensive, although he cannot regen. He's effectively just a warped jedi. 

What about besides Vader? Let's go to his buddy, and apparent best friend (if the games were canon at least, since you always see them together...) Soontir ******* Fel. 

Soontir is what I would like to discribe as a "Great Brand Value Jedi" - All he needs to do to beome a Jedi with a Giant Force token is bullseye something each turn. This sounds hard, until you realize he has blue hard turns and the ability to double reposition and he almost always moves last. Combined with his newfound access to the Target Lock action, and the fact that he can bullseye anything (not just what he's shooting/defending against) he gets his double mods most turns when he wants them, and as an element that jedi lack, he can get a Focus+Evade every turn, rendering him highly resistant to damage. If you take one 3-die focus shot a turn against a 3 hull Soontir with focus Evade, it takes him 17 turns to die on average- A game does not have 17 turns.

Also, 'fun' fact- Soontir Fel is 93% of all TIE Interceptors! For every squad flown with a Saber Squadron Ace, there are ONE HUNDRED squads with Soontir Fel! This is worse than Boba's ratios in wave 1!

For all this, he costs a measly 53 points. That's less than Wedge. 

Speaking of, let's talk about Wedge. Wedge is is the second most popular ship after soontir, and the most popular rebel ship. Wedge only has one of the three things I mentioned in the title/the jedi section- Cheap initiative. ****, it's not even that cheap, as he pays 7 more than Thane (Another mediocre-at-best-ship) and 14 more than a Blue. He cannot double-modify his attack or defense dice, and he has consequences for his repositioning (no mods)

 Wedge is not good as a result- He's the only pilot in the top 12 most used pilots to have a less-than-50% winrate. However, he sees the most use of all the rebel ships due to this i6- He's easier to use as he has more perfect or near-perfect information. 

Let's talk about non-limited pilots. Non limited pilots, sans a few exceptions, are laughably bad. The top 10 has one non-limited pilot, and it's Trade Federation Drone. 

Trade federation Drone used to be not good. However, FFG gave the Vulture Drone swarm lists a massive point buff in the last update- A "Modern" 200 point vulture swarm would cost 235 in the last update. Combined with this heaping of new points to work with, the Vulture swarm also has the constant stream of friendly calculate tokens to resist focus fire, and increase their own offense via double modification. However, even with all of this, it still sometimes is helped out by "Definitely not Wedge with a Dorsal Turret, FTC, and the Quadjumper ship ability"- AKA Sun Fac. 

The only other generic ships that see use in the top 50 most used pilots either are either "TFD with 2 discount hull Upgrades"(Techo Union Bomber), dedicated blockers that are expected to die (Gold Torrents, Acads), a ******* Jedi generic (Inquisitor), Turrets (TIE/SF, and I'd like to note that the ones that take Gunners do drastically worse than those that do not- It's almost like they aren't going to get shots off at those Jedi with their front arc!) and the ARC (a blocker with a gun and a rear arc, who hang out with Jedi)

After all this, we get the Cartel Maruader, the best "Generic pilot who will shoot targets to do damage" At 38, it blows past the 41 point "Barrier" that the T-65 x-wing has, and it's still just "Kinda OK". This is mostly due to the fact that as well as the jedi and jedi-esque pilots on the top of the meta, the remaining top 50 is mostly named pilots with powerful and cheap pilot abilities. One of the best examples of this is Duchess. Costing just 4 points over the Black Squadron Scout, why would anyone ever take that ship? (The answer is "They do not"- Only one has been brought to a tournament) Another good example is Tavson. Tavson costs just 6 over the SKB. 

Also, speaking of the FO, Kylo is in 70+% of all First Order lists. Its almost like he's just another Jedi. 

It's time for the Jedi to end. 

For a good visual representation of all of this data, you can go to http://advancedtargeting.computer/, a great site made by Chris "Hi Chris" Allen. You may note that the order of ships as I mentioned them was in their played-order list. 

TL:DR- Orange and Purple number too big. Pilot abilities too cheap. 

this whole things feels like a roundabout attack on wedge

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46 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Speaking of, let's talk about Wedge. Wedge is is the second most popular ship after soontir, and the most popular rebel ship. Wedge only has one of the three things I mentioned in the title/the jedi section- Cheap initiative. ****, it's not even that cheap, as he pays 7 more than Thane (Another mediocre-at-best-ship) and 14 more than a Blue. He cannot double-modify his attack or defense dice, and he has consequences for his repositioning (no mods)

 Wedge is not good as a result- He's the only pilot in the top 12 most used pilots to have a less-than-50% winrate. However, he sees the most use of all the rebel ships due to this i6- He's easier to use as he has more perfect or near-perfect information. 

Wedge has a passive modifier by removing one of his opponents green dice, regardless of any factors like arcs or range. That is the reason he is so expensive- he has a no-limit Outmaneuver for an ability, which is powerful. Considering Outmaneuver is 6 points by itself, Wedge's price is pretty decent in my book.

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1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also, speaking of the FO, Kylo is in 70+% of all First Order lists. Its almost like he's just another Jedi  the FO doesn't have a lot of ships right now.

FTFY.

Quote

For a good visual representation of all of this data, you can go to http://advancedtargeting.computer/, a great site made by Chris "Hi Chris" Allen. You may note that the order of ships as I mentioned them was in their played-order list. 

Stop making lists.  You'll stop finding one ship at the top of it.

Last I heard, Worlds was pretty **** diverse.  Let's ride that wave for awhile.

Or, if you want to analyze the data another way, at least the first half of that list has a c. 50% win rate with any given ship.  A 50/50 win/loss rate with a majority of the options is a pretty balanced game.

Also, if you want generics to shine, play Epic.  Now that wings exist, that's exactly what generics are for.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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So theres alot of good points in here. I think over time I have started to believe alot less in point adjustments as a mechanism for the type of balance your looking for. I think rule changes and errata still need to be in FFGs active playbook. If they are not power creep becomes one of main things they can pair with pt adjustments over time. Limited format would work to but that doesnt exist anymore.
 

Players want to use their heroes. They always will, cost them correctly and the majority of players will be outraged. People, including myself, generally unapologetically want and ask for their favorite undercosted aces to fit in a high number of lists. And usually the pts end up allowing it. Its true even with so called “bad” aces that are actually still incredible compared to the majority of the card pool just not on the same level as the S tier. Fenn Rau and Fangs are a good example. Poe to. These are excellent ships. Just not Jedi/Vader/Whisper tier.
 

So big picture I dont think pt adjustments solve most of the core issues with jedi, force users, consequence free double repositions, blocks, or obstacle collision collecting.
 

I like cool character ships and low/mid init ships. Almost equally. They are interesting for many of their own reasons, part of why i typically fly lists with a mix of inits, generics, aces, and names. I like being able to bring all this stuff in higher ship count (4-6 ship) mixed lists
 

Mechanical constraints are the key. Make aces “bad” enough that they can be at reasonable costs so we can keep playing em. That in short requires that the devs not give the players all the tricks they want in one platform. Thats sorta not what people ask for though and pretty much not something I expect to happen. More likely that AOE and control along with pt cost increases is used for long term balance.

Edited by Boom Owl

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12 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

FTFY.

Stop making lists.  You'll stop finding one ship at the top of it.

Last I heard, Worlds was pretty **** diverse.  Let's ride that wave for awhile.

Or, if you want to analyze the data another way, at least the first half of that list has a c. 50% win rate with any given ship.  A 50/50 win/loss rate with a majority of the options is a pretty balanced game.

Also, if you want generics to shine, play Epic.  Now that wings exist, that's exactly what generics are for.

On the Kylo bit, if it wasn't the force that makes him relevant, we would see significant amounts of non-kylo silencer play, with similar levels of success. Kylo is over 4 times as popular as Blackout, and Blackout is over double as popular as all of the generics combined. Further, Kylo's Cut Rate is over 50% higher than Blackouts- In effect, for every 1 Blackout that made a cut at an event, 7 Kylos did.  

As to not reading the usage rates, that's the equivalent of "If you close your eyes, the problem goes away". 
For worlds, I'm not really sure where you heard it was diverse- Almost half of the lists were Empire or Republic (And let me tell you, most of those Empire lists were not TIE Swarms!) - It was a lot of force, and a lot of passive double mods at high initiative. 

For the Win rates, you can look at a conversion rate to get a more useful bit of information- it shows disrepancy better, as it is less obscured by people who go 2-4 and play out their games in the Salt Mines.

For Epic, that's actually a bit of a misconception- The best Wings that you can make are actually "Big Ball of Named Pilots" 

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1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Speaking of, let's talk about Wedge. Wedge is is the second most popular ship after soontir, and the most popular rebel ship. Wedge only has one of the three things I mentioned in the title/the jedi section- Cheap initiative. ****, it's not even that cheap, as he pays 7 more than Thane (Another mediocre-at-best-ship) and 14 more than a Blue. He cannot double-modify his attack or defense dice, and he has consequences for his repositioning (no mods)

To be fair, Wedge's pilot ability is about as strong, mathematically speaking, as having some passive mods.  Depends a lot more on circumstances, but Wedge does contribute something other than Orange 6.

  • Vs 3 Green with Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 0.638
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 0.988
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.074
  • Vs 3 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.217
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 1.701
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.531
  • Vs 3 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice without focus: 0.674
    • 3 dice with Lock: 1.217
    • Wedge without Focus: 0.896
  • Vs 2 Green with Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.074
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 1.567
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.635
  • Vs 1 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.881
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 2.438
    • Wedge with Focus: 2.250
Edited by theBitterFig

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

To be fair, Wedge's pilot ability is about as strong, mathematically speaking, as having some passive mods.  Depends a lot more on circumstances, but Wedge does contribute something other than Orange 6.

  • Vs 3 Green with Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 0.638
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 0.988
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.074
  • Vs 3 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.217
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 1.701
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.531
  • Vs 3 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice without focus: 0.674
    • 3 dice with Lock: 1.217
    • Wedge without Focus: 0.896
  • Vs 2 Green with Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.074
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 1.567
    • Wedge with Focus: 1.635
  • Vs 1 Green without Focus
    • 3 dice with Focus: 1.881
    • 3 dice with Focus/Lock: 2.438
    • Wedge with Focus: 2.250

However, on the other hand:

3 green dice with Focus and a reroll does more damage than basically all of these, and it doesn't have any of the following issues that are not visible from the one-shot (As you can attest, wedge does not simply teleport into an end-game 1v1) . 

When wedge shoots a focused target, they have additional odds of not spending a focus on defense on his shot, which will either decrease the effective damage from a teammate's shot, or cause wedge/his teammates to take more damage from - the return shot. Further, he is relatively frail. You would not pay 14 points for copy of 1.0 Predator on a Blue Squad Escort- Wedge's primary feature is his Big Orange 6. 

I'm not saying he's garbage, but he's certianly nowhere near game-defining. His ability is a nice cherry on top, but it doesn't make up for his otherwise deficient mobility and defense.  
unknown.png

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19 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

For Epic, that's actually a bit of a misconception- The best Wings that you can make are actually "Big Ball of Named Pilots" 

Good luck remembering to use all their abilities. 😁

Personally, I'm looking at wings as damage sponges to keep my aces alive.  Which means I want cheap red shirts. 

Lastly, I have no problem with a game state where Kylo Ren (and his heroic alternate faction equivalents) is the most popular choice.  It's exactly what people wanted to see happen at the end of 1.0.

If Obi wan is the most popular choice but dies half the time, and exists in the company of most of the other Aces of Lore, very little is wrong with the game save unimaginable listbuilding.

It sounds mostly like you hate how Force works.  Which, I suppose, is fair.

But The Force is what makes Star Wars Star Wars, and all 9 movies revolved around it, so space wizards need to be potent.  And they are.  But they also fly some of the most lightweight ships in the game. 

So as Vlad Taltos would say:

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

Edited by Darth Meanie

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44 minutes ago, Ikka said:

Wedge has a passive modifier by removing one of his opponents green dice, regardless of any factors like arcs or range. That is the reason he is so expensive- he has a no-limit Outmaneuver for an ability, which is powerful. Considering Outmaneuver is 6 points by itself, Wedge's price is pretty decent in my book.

Fun Fact! Outmaneuver wedge is atually the worst wedge that we know of with significant usage, at a less than 1/3 winrate, and a sub-10% cutrate!

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=wedgeantilles

But seriously, Wedge's cut and win rates being so low mean that he is not in the upper echelon of ships, competitively.

Sure wedge is probably much better than a Blue Rookie, or Kullbee Sperado- The point is that he's not nearly as good, point-for-point, as something like Plo Koon

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=plokoon

Also @Boom Owl the prophet, called this all before it happened. If only the highly-used-mediocre/sub-par pilot was Thane or someone without a fanclub. 
 

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45 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Make aces “bad” enough that they can be at reasonable costs so we can keep playing em. 

I think this is where trouble seeps in with what you are proposing. Someone sees “make them bad” and no amount of quotation marks can save the suggestion. I’ve heard these arguments before and the language usually used makes me question the suggesters intent more than the efficacy of the suggestion. Aces don’t need to be made “bad”, they need to be made balanced. There is a difference. I agree that erratas and rules changes are tools in FFGs tool box and shouldn’t be off limits. I’m just not convinced we’re there yet (if you are, I would love to hear your reasoning, if you are willing).

All archetypes need to be watched and rebalanced as the game evolves. I agree that Aces need to be watched closely, with Force Capable ones looking to need some more direct action. I think we have common ground, but there are linguistic choices and inaccuracies that make me question it.

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2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think this is where trouble seeps in with what you are proposing. Someone sees “make them bad” and no amount of quotation marks can save the suggestion. I’ve heard these arguments before and the language usually used makes me question the suggesters intent more than the efficacy of the suggestion. Aces don’t need to be made “bad”, they need to be made balanced. There is a difference. I agree that erratas and rules changes are tools in FFGs tool box and shouldn’t be off limits. I’m just not convinced we’re there yet (if you are, I would love to hear your reasoning, if you are willing).

All archetypes need to be watched and rebalanced as the game evolves. I agree that Aces need to be watched closely, with Force Capable ones looking to need some more direct action. I think we have common ground, but there are linguistic choices and inaccuracies that make me question it.

It's my understanding (And correct me if I'm wrong, Boom) that he's referring to a developer quote where they stated that Ion was intentionally 'bad' because "You don't want to live in the world where Ion is good"

'Bad' in this case referring to "Intentionally less efficeint than the top tier options".

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27 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think this is where trouble seeps in with what you are proposing. Someone sees “make them bad” and no amount of quotation marks can save the suggestion. I’ve heard these arguments before and the language usually used makes me question the suggesters intent more than the efficacy of the suggestion. Aces don’t need to be made “bad”, they need to be made balanced. There is a difference. I agree that erratas and rules changes are tools in FFGs tool box and shouldn’t be off limits. I’m just not convinced we’re there yet (if you are, I would love to hear your reasoning

More accurate term instead of “bad” would be “less is more, real flaws are good”. Hence bad in quotes. Just genuinely flawed in enough ways that the pt costs are able to stay down, cool characters fit in lists, and the power creep happens more slowly.

I have been pretty consistent for a very long time that Force Rules are poorly implemented. That I think is deserving of a direct and immediate change to prevent recharge or spend while blocked rocked or stressed. Doesnt have to happen, Power Creep is a legit strategy. Im accepting of it as a solution. I just like alot of force using characters and want to keep playing them at reasonable costs. I want them to be less good so I can play them more long term.

Outside of that I think FFG should broadly consider removing some ship abilities from cards via errata and adding them back via titles. Would free Aces up from being costed beyond reach. Would resolve problems with ships that are just direct copy paste repeat mistakes from 1.0. Defenders, Jedi, Phantoms, I think they all would benefit greatly from this in terms of fun factor despite inaccessibility/confusion in list building.

”Bad” basically means this...

"We ended up with a game that I didn't know how to win. I didn't know which were the best strategies or tactics, even though I designed all the game's systems. That is what makes a good strategy game."
—Julian Gollop, X-Com: UFO Defense

Edited by Boom Owl

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3 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

It's my understanding (And correct me if I'm wrong, Boom) that he's referring to a developer quote where they stated that Ion was intentionally 'bad' because "You don't want to live in the world where Ion is good"

'Bad' in this case referring to "Intentionally less efficeint than the top tier options".

Okay. I’m not wild about the use of “bad” for Ion (though agree with the underlying intent). I’m even less wild when it is applied to a broader subject. 

I also think that definition of bad is also something to avoid when applying it to broader subjects, such as pilot/ship types. That’s because I think Aces should be as efficient as any top tier options, just in different ways. An Ace shouldn’t be made worse than say a mid-I jouster of similar cost, it should be a different options with different strengths. I agree that quite a few aces break that idea with their mobility combined with mods, but the answer isn’t to make them “intentionally less efficient than the top tier options”. It is to bring them in line with other options, not below. Again, don’t make them bad. Make them balanced.

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18 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Fun Fact! Outmaneuver wedge is atually the worst wedge that we know of with significant usage, at a less than 1/3 winrate, and a sub-10% cutrate!

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=wedgeantilles

But seriously, Wedge's cut and win rates being so low mean that he is not in the upper echelon of ships, competitively.

Sure wedge is probably much better than a Blue Rookie, or Kullbee Sperado- The point is that he's not nearly as good, point-for-point, as something like Plo Koon

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=plokoon

Also @Boom Owl the prophet, called this all before it happened. If only the highly-used-mediocre/sub-par pilot was Thane or someone without a fanclub. 

I play Scum, Imperial, and CIS, I could care less about Wedge as a pilot. I think your assertion that Wedge is only used for I6 is fairly off though- his ability is a powerful draw as is his presence in the list; he forces the enemy to react to his presence more than someone like Plo Koon because Wedge is an offensive threat.

I do agree that Aces in general, and especially Force Aces, should be watched. However, I'm more of a person who likes to build up rather than tear down, and rather than using FAQs and errata to nerf Jedi I think that using though-out points adjustments (Force up, various others down) and more use of alternative configurations of the upgrade bar (think Hyena droids and their various upgrade bars) might prove to be a more beneficial to the game by giving more options.

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2 minutes ago, Ikka said:

I play Scum, Imperial, and CIS, I could care less about Wedge as a pilot. I think your assertion that Wedge is only used for I6 is fairly off though- his ability is a powerful draw as is his presence in the list; he forces the enemy to react to his presence more than someone like Plo Koon because Wedge is an offensive threat.

I do agree that Aces in general, and especially Force Aces, should be watched. However, I'm more of a person who likes to build up rather than tear down, and rather than using FAQs and errata to nerf Jedi I think that using though-out points adjustments (Force up, various others down) and more use of alternative configurations of the upgrade bar (think Hyena droids and their various upgrade bars) might prove to be a more beneficial to the game by giving more options.

The issue that exists with buffing the other pilots to match the good is that 

- It lessens the amount of pilots in the 'good' at any one time, as the 'good' will be "Those that have recieved recent developer attention" due to increased rates of powercreep. - Less dirt must be moved to destroy the top of a mountian than to build up the sides. 

- Say we're buffing the generic TIE Strikers to be able to compete with the current Triple Regen Maximum Tank Jedi squads- You're looking at something like 6 Black Squadron Scouts in a list. That's a lotta scouts, and games are already getting fewer and fewer numbers of turns in. 

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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

More accurate term instead of “bad” would be “less is more, real flaws are good”. Hence bad in quotes. Just genuinely flawed in enough ways that the pt costs are able to stay down, cool characters fit in lists, and the power creep happens more slowly.

I have been pretty consistent for a very long time that Force Rules are poorly implemented. That I think is deserving of a direct and immediate change to prevent recharge or spend while blocked rocked or stressed. Doesnt have to happen, Power Creep is a legit strategy. Im accepting of it as a solution.

Outside of that I think FFG should broadly consider removing some ship abilities from cards via errata and adding them back via titles. Would free Aces up from being costed beyond reach. Would resolve problems with ships that are just direct copy paste repeat mistakes from 1.0. Defenders, Jedi, Phantoms, I think they all would benefit greatly from this in terms of fun factor and accessibility/confusion in list building.

”Bad” basically means this...

"We ended up with a game that I didn't know how to win. I didn't know which were the best strategies or tactics, even though I designed all the game's systems. That is what makes a good strategy game."
—Julian Gollop, talking about his game X-Com: UFO Defense

I can agree with the “less is more” statement and believe you should use that instead of “bad”. I know I’m being very particular about language, but when you get right down to it, words are basically it when it comes this form of communication and can easily cause misunderstandings and confusion when used improperly. Same with hyperbole. You spoke out against “consequence free double repositioning”, which doesn’t exist. Double repositioning comes with opportunity costs and token costs. Now, there is definitely an argument for “insufficient consequence to double repositioning” and I believe should be discussed more. But the hyperbole of “no consequence” muddies the waters. Heh, and maybe this is just my time on this forum showing, but I’ve seen plenty of people use puffed up exaggerations as facts. Heck, I’ve been guilty of it too. And it rarely leads to productive conversations. 

I agree with the Gollop quote. I just think shoehorning it as the definition of an already defined word isn’t effective communication. And if you want change, effective communication is key.

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26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I can agree with the “less is more” statement and believe you should use that instead of “bad”. I know I’m being very particular about language, but when you get right down to it, words are basically it when it comes this form of communication and can easily cause misunderstandings and confusion when used improperly. Same with hyperbole. You spoke out against “consequence free double repositioning”, which doesn’t exist. Double repositioning comes with opportunity costs and token costs. Now, there is definitely an argument for “insufficient consequence to double repositioning” and I believe should be discussed more. But the hyperbole of “no consequence” muddies the waters. Heh, and maybe this is just my time on this forum showing, but I’ve seen plenty of people use puffed up exaggerations as facts. Heck, I’ve been guilty of it too. And it rarely leads to productive conversations. 

I agree with the Gollop quote. I just think shoehorning it as the definition of an already defined word isn’t effective communication. And if you want change, effective communication is key.

Fair. 

If we are defining the term “consequence free repositioning”. I mean double repositioning and ending with mods, or token linked single repositioning and ending without stress or dial constraint, or intentionally hitting a space obstacle and still being able to boost, or all the words on composure. That’s how I was using consequence free. 

Its possible that regardless of the words used to say this the vast majority of players will disagree. Thats ok.

Edited by Boom Owl

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Just now, Boom Owl said:

Fair. 

If we are defining the term “consequence free repositioning”. I mean double repositioning and ending with mods, or token linked single repositioning and ending without stress or dial constraint, or intentionally hitting a space obstacle and still being able to boost. That’s how i view consequence free. 
 

But none of that is actually consequence free.

Let’s take Fel for the first definition. He can very easily double reposition and get his focus. However, that comes at the cost of other actions, and will get him a stress. Now, again, that being viewed as insufficient consequences is totally valid and can agree with. 
And this continues. Jedi for the second. Spend a Force Token, which does have a rather hefty opportunity cost when considering what that token can do on its own or what ability it could fuel. Not trying to imply that cos is sufficient, just that it exists. 
Third goes to the Nantex, which I will admit is its own ball of trouble. But still costs other actions and requires a specific obstacle to not be in danger of other consequences. (I have views on Gas clouds, but that’s a different subject.)

Now, upon reflection, there is a case of the second definition having no consequences in Sabine. She repositions for free and can get a token. She can even do a reposition action and get two tokens, but that crosses back into having the consequence of a restricted dial. If you feel I’ve missed other examples, please share.

To reiterate, I don’t mean to imply that the consequences I’ve laid out are sufficient to justify the value given. What is and isn’t sufficient cost is an interesting discussion to have and I think is vital when considering how to balance a game. But the oversimplification (at least in my mind) of using the phrase “no consequences” closes off avenues for discussion and misses nuance. 

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1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The issue that exists with buffing the other pilots to match the good is that 

- It lessens the amount of pilots in the 'good' at any one time, as the 'good' will be "Those that have recieved recent developer attention" due to increased rates of powercreep. - Less dirt must be moved to destroy the top of a mountian than to build up the sides. 

- Say we're buffing the generic TIE Strikers to be able to compete with the current Triple Regen Maximum Tank Jedi squads- You're looking at something like 6 Black Squadron Scouts in a list. That's a lotta scouts, and games are already getting fewer and fewer numbers of turns in. 

I don't think matching will be possible- there are always going to be ships/pilots that are on top and trying to make everyone good devalues all as far as game balance goes. What I do believe is that with selective points adjustments such as increasing R2 astromech points and decreasing points on a variety of other ships it would allow new combinations to come out and take on the meta-dominant lists. The option of changing up current ships upgrade bars, including making the upgrade bars different among pilots of a ship, would also increase the options that people have to counter certain lists.

I come from 40k gaming, so I am extremely used to seeing both "newest-released-overpowered lists" and "nerfed-to-useless-overreaction lists". I prefer a middle ground rather than an extreme reaction either way.

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FFG: We have learned that certain design items negatively impact the game, and are taking that knowledge forward into second edition. We're learning from our mistakes.

Also FFG: Hey, let's make all those mistakes again. In fact, let's make a bunch of them on a single ship. *Releases Aethersprite*

LOL 😒😝

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Looking at Advanced Targeting Computer, the pilots that really stand out to me as performing drastically above average aren't the Jedi.  Both the Trade Federation Drone and Captain Sear have really good cut and win percentages - they've both got a cut rate of over 30%, and a win rate of over 60%.

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