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Aspect Power Levels

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9 minutes ago, Supertoe said:

The problem I found with Protection Panther was that A) in general he's a fairly weak hero but B) he lacks much damage from his hero cards. With little damage from hero cards and little damage from protection, how are you winning?

That’s the thing, you don’t need a lot; once his suit is built he’s doing 6 damage per Wakanda forever, and with 5 of those in the deck, that’s 30 damage per deck cycle. 

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1 minute ago, Derrault said:

That’s the thing, you don’t need a lot; once his suit is built he’s doing 6 damage per Wakanda forever, and with 5 of those in the deck, that’s 30 damage per deck cycle. 

True. 

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I need to play around with decks some more, but I find that Justice paired with She-Hulk seems to work pretty well. Maybe I need to give Leadership more of a chance, but when I've played with it with other characters, it hasn't been a very strong aspect (for solo). The thing I like about the She-Hulk/Justice pairing is that She-Hulk can blitz with damage while the Justice cards supplement the thwarting resources she already has in her hero cards.

I do think that Protection is solidly in the support category. There just isn't much about the current card pool that makes it a good solo option. Which isn't necessarily bad. I'm sure as the card pool increases there will be ways to make it viable for solo, but for now I think it's strictly a support aspect.

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On 11/17/2019 at 4:32 AM, Ascarel said:

Protection "is" not garbage. I would take Luke Cage over Vision almost all the time. His Toughness will often save you. Protection clearly helps you toward your winning condition, because you dish out damage out of turn while yourself avoiding more than you would otherwise. It's easy to see why Black Panther's Retaliate synergizes well with that. The aspect's most efficient combo -- basic DEF + Counterpunch + Indomitable -- opens up your next turn in a way that no other aspect can. If you don't have Indomitable, a hero that can cause substantial damage while being exhausted will not care. Again, that's why Panther works well with that. I assume Iron Man in full suit would also have a good laugh (I haven't played him yet). Now, for sure, Protection means you play a longer game, because this aspect mostly relies on the hero cards to dish out most of your damage, Haymaker notwithstanding. That doesn't go well with all heroes, or players, or situations. But it can work. It does work.

Luke is fine, but not being able to Attack/Thwart without using up his Toughness makes me like him a lot less. You're likely spending a significant amount of your turn (or all of it) solely for a blocker. And unless you get 3 blocks out out of Luke, Mockingbird likely has much the same effect for one resource cheaper.

I'd agree he's likely better than Vision because Vision is honestly pretty bad outside of his synergy with the Leadership package (i.e. Get Ready).  I feel like most of the higher cost allies are probably overall too expensive, and I think it's likely they'll get replaced pretty quickly unless they do something beyond their stats (e.g. Hawkeye).  

People seem to talk up Black Panther's Retaliation, and I'm not sure why. Is it a nice extra? Sure. But 1 damage pings when villains have 30+ HP pools per player? And you still get the Retaliate damage if you don't defend it, it just means you've got to spend a turn recovering in Alter-Ego mode instead which will net you more health recovery than defending blocks, and lets you trigger AE cards for two turns (though obviously, not always an option you can take, particularly in solo). 

Could you explain what you mean about the Counterpunch/Indomitable combo opening up your next turn? It seems that the advantages of it are being up 2-3 health, having dealt 1-3 points of damage, and being down a card in hand.  While that's nice, it doesn't seem to justify the use over any other aspect. 

 

Also, one thing I should point out - I'm not questioning the validity of Protection as an aspect - I think there's room to run heroes who focus on defending their team. But I think the *current* card pool for the Aspect is significantly underpowered. Thankfully the previewed cards for Cap/Ms. Marvel look like they'll improve the Aspect - Expert Defense and Cap with his shield straight away make it a more viable option.

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I love Cap, but I'd almost prefer that Ms.Marvel was going to release first just so Protection got a boost from new cards first. I like all the aspects and can and have won with all of them but most of the time generally I'm playing signature cards over aspect cards and playing the aspect cards "if I have the extra resources".

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13 minutes ago, HirumaShigure said:

I love Cap, but I'd almost prefer that Ms.Marvel was going to release first just so Protection got a boost from new cards first. I like all the aspects and can and have won with all of them but most of the time generally I'm playing signature cards over aspect cards and playing the aspect cards "if I have the extra resources".

Personally, I think that’s how it should be. If I’m playing Spider-Man, it’s because I’m excited to do whatever a spider can, not so I can play an interrogation room...

For me, the aspects are just some additional flavour you can add to the hero to focus them one way or the other - I want the signature cards to be the real stars of the show, because I want it to matter if I’m playing Iron Man or She Hulk.

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Personally, I think that’s how it should be. If I’m playing Spider-Man, it’s because I’m excited to do whatever a spider can, not so I can play an interrogation room...

For me, the aspects are just some additional flavour you can add to the hero to focus them one way or the other - I want the signature cards to be the real stars of the show, because I want it to matter if I’m playing Iron Man or She Hulk.

Yeah, I just mentioned in the Spider-Woman thread how much I love just Spidey being Spidey. That said, I find him asking Daredevil for help to be incredibly cool thematically, and likewise with Daredevil using the interrogation room to thwart while beating the **** out of somebody 😂

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5 hours ago, Abyss said:

Luke is fine, but not being able to Attack/Thwart without using up his Toughness makes me like him a lot less. You're likely spending a significant amount of your turn (or all of it) solely for a blocker. And unless you get 3 blocks out out of Luke, Mockingbird likely has much the same effect for one resource cheaper.

One would think the whole point of Luke would be to Block (remove tough), deal 8 damage over four turns, then block again? Why are we assuming he's going to block every time? Dude has 2 attack and a ton of health, use it.

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8 hours ago, Abyss said:

People seem to talk up Black Panther's Retaliation, and I'm not sure why. Is it a nice extra? Sure. But 1 damage pings when villains have 30+ HP pools per player? And you still get the Retaliate damage if you don't defend it, it just means you've got to spend a turn recovering in Alter-Ego mode instead which will net you more health recovery than defending blocks, and lets you trigger AE cards for two turns (though obviously, not always an option you can take, particularly in solo). 

Retaliate is hit point attrition. The longer the game, the more useful it becomes. It's true that it probably doesn't scale that well in team play, but I do believe that in all cases, doing 1 additional damage on every turn Panther doesn't scheme is always better than not doing it. MODOK terrifies me in solo play for that reason.

8 hours ago, Abyss said:

Could you explain what you mean about the Counterpunch/Indomitable combo opening up your next turn? It seems that the advantages of it are being up 2-3 health, having dealt 1-3 points of damage, and being down a card in hand.  While that's nice, it doesn't seem to justify the use over any other aspect. 

Because you potentially have eliminated a minion (such as one with Guard) out of turn, you have kept one of your allies ready and you yourself start your turn ready. This means you can fully press the offensive instead of catching up to what just happened. That's incomparable value to get out of the "bad things phase".

Edited by Ascarel

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6 hours ago, Abyss said:

Luke is fine, but not being able to Attack/Thwart without using up his Toughness makes me like him a lot less. You're likely spending a significant amount of your turn (or all of it) solely for a blocker. And unless you get 3 blocks out out of Luke, Mockingbird likely has much the same effect for one resource cheaper.

I'd agree he's likely better than Vision because Vision is honestly pretty bad outside of his synergy with the Leadership package (i.e. Get Ready).  I feel like most of the higher cost allies are probably overall too expensive, and I think it's likely they'll get replaced pretty quickly unless they do something beyond their stats (e.g. Hawkeye).  

People seem to talk up Black Panther's Retaliation, and I'm not sure why. Is it a nice extra? Sure. But 1 damage pings when villains have 30+ HP pools per player? And you still get the Retaliate damage if you don't defend it, it just means you've got to spend a turn recovering in Alter-Ego mode instead which will net you more health recovery than defending blocks, and lets you trigger AE cards for two turns (though obviously, not always an option you can take, particularly in solo). 

Could you explain what you mean about the Counterpunch/Indomitable combo opening up your next turn? It seems that the advantages of it are being up 2-3 health, having dealt 1-3 points of damage, and being down a card in hand.  While that's nice, it doesn't seem to justify the use over any other aspect. 

 

Also, one thing I should point out - I'm not questioning the validity of Protection as an aspect - I think there's room to run heroes who focus on defending their team. But I think the *current* card pool for the Aspect is significantly underpowered. Thankfully the previewed cards for Cap/Ms. Marvel look like they'll improve the Aspect - Expert Defense and Cap with his shield straight away make it a more viable option.

Counterpunch is akin to a 0 cost 1-2 punch, in that it allows you to take 2 actions at the cost of 1 card (whereas 1-2 punch requires 2). With Indomitable setup you effectively get 3 basic actions that turn for only 2 cards.

As to why defend, if it allows you to remain in Hero mode for an extra turn, you’re effectively thwarting for the villains base SCH+Boosts (+any minions) by staving it off a round. There can be a great deal of value in that, especially against enemies with very high SCH values (I’m looking at you nemesis Thomas Edison)

edit: In the case of Black Panther, if he has Prot added, that’s block for 3, hit for 3, then scheme/hit for +2, and include the base scheme (usually 1) plus boost (0-3) for 9-12 value, vs the 5 value you’d see from not blocking and instead just using Recover that turn. 

Edited by Derrault

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Protection Spiderman is good because he has a lot of synergy with the aspect but I think Protection is pretty meh with anyone else (Prot Black Panther is overrated because he has more resources than he can spend)

Protection also gets better when paired with Leadership since med teams are great at keeping allies on the table much longer.

Leadership is best but it is expensive so only certain heroes can use it to.its fullest potential. It also isn't the most consistent either.

Justice is the most consistently good aspect because losing by threat is the most common way to lose. Elite villians are much harder if you dont have a Justice hero.

Aggression is solid in 3+ players. In 2p, it needs the right partner, and its dicey in solo.

 

Edited by Deadwolf

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1 minute ago, Deadwolf said:

Protection Spiderman is good because he has a lot of synergy with the aspect but I think Protection is pretty meh with anyone else (Prot Black Panther is overrated because he has more resources than he can spend)

Protection also gets better when paired with Leadership since med teams can keep.

Leadership is best but it is expensive so only certain heroes can use it to.its fullest potential. It also isn't the most consistent either.

Justice is the most consistently good aspect because losing by threat is the most common way to lose. Elite villians are much harder if you dont have a Justice hero.

Aggression is solid in 3+ players. In 2p, it needs the right partner, and its dicey in solo.

 

I love how your take is slightly different from most others so far, but still manages to be completely on point. There’s seriously a lot to explore in even just the core set of this game.

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I would like to say that like someone said, we have to take the combined hero in consideration too. Justice+ IronMan does a pretty good job at giving Him the resources and support to have him building his armour while still playing a role as Tony Stark. My mistake somehow was to put Agression on She-Hulk. While she indeed gain a small extra damage, I felt she was no taking an active part in the game I had last night....Protection is nice but it's to be combined carefully with a hero that has a need for it...At first I had given Protection to She-Hulk...And surprisingly it wasn't so bad...alas I had given "Agression" to Ironman (following the recommendations of the rulebook) and it was a complete mess...

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Protection is also lowkey thwarting because you can hang in hero mode longer.  I don't think Protection is trash but it probably takes the most thought and is not great on the best all-around heroes like Iron Man and Captain Marvel.  I could see it on Black Panther, but as others have said he really lacks damage events, so I feel like uppercut and relentless assault are more important to have access to with him.

Aggression is pretty great.  To try something dumb, my friend and I took two aggression decks (Spiderman and Black Panther) against expert Klaw and only lost because we had to both had to go to alter ego mode and I decked out, drawing the scheme again card on that one.  We went from one threat to 16.  We were one turn away from taking him out, it was a great game.  I think you can make any aspect work, but some are more challenging than others and , in the current card pool, some heroes may not synergize as well with certain aspects.

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