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SpiderMana

Aspect Power Levels

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So, do you find that any one aspect outshines the others in play? Is there one that seems like it’s getting left in the dust?

Obviously it’s still a fairly small card pool and there’s room for things to change; that said, in my opinion Leadership currently has a leg up. Particularly thanks to one card, which is Make the Call. Keeping allies up just seems to be the best use of resources, since they’re generally flexible in use, and stick around for multiple rounds. The ability to pick a hero from your whole discard essentially ups your hand size—not to mention when you add other players’ discards.

 

All that said, I think Tac Team and Med Team might be my favorite non-character-specific cards in the game so far. And Interrogation room with Daredevil can be bonkers good with some teammates getting Minions down to one health. So it’s not that I find the other aspects to be bad so much as I didn’t lose a game until I played without Leadership :P

(I also found Black Panther more difficult to setup/payoff than Iron Man, so maybe I’ll start a thread to see if one of them is over- or under- powered 😂)

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The vast majority of my plays are solo, which I think does effect things, but I think the order is probably :

Leadership - flexible, strong - allies are definitely very strong in the core box scenarios and Leadership has a great range of them, plus recurring the beat ones.

Justice - best way to manage threat long enough to stabilise the game and build to doing ally your damage swiftly.

Protection - capable of dragging the game out via cancelling effects, but struggles to advance the win condition. Games run long and close to using in threat.

Aggression - really dicey solo. Needs to race the villain in damage. 
 

I think multiplayer is currently the only way to make Protection and aggression really viable, and I still think they’re currently lagging behind the other 2...

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25 minutes ago, FearLord said:

The vast majority of my plays are solo, which I think does effect things, but I think the order is probably :

Leadership - flexible, strong - allies are definitely very strong in the core box scenarios and Leadership has a great range of them, plus recurring the beat ones.

Justice - best way to manage threat long enough to stabilise the game and build to doing ally your damage swiftly.

Protection - capable of dragging the game out via cancelling effects, but struggles to advance the win condition. Games run long and close to using in threat.

Aggression - really dicey solo. Needs to race the villain in damage. 
 

I think multiplayer is currently the only way to make Protection and aggression really viable, and I still think they’re currently lagging behind the other 2...

Yeah, the additional threat management from Justice is really helpful. I’m probably going to try Leadership Iron Man with Protection Cap, though, when he comes out. When Stark gets his armor built he really pops off as generally effective at everything, and I think Protection Cap can give him a bit of room to build up to that armor.

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I don't think we can particularly look at the Aspects in a vacuum. What matters more is the combination of:

  • Chosen hero
  • Aspect
  • Player Count
  • Scenario
  • Team composition

In a vacuum, yes Leadership appears a bit ahead, but when I tried Black Panther Leadership in solo vs Rhino, half my Leadership cards were duds. But in multiplayer they can shine. Spider-Man Justice Solo is great and has all the answers...except when facing Klaw + Masters of Evil and your damage output is too low. Etc etc 

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For my opinion, not that I'm super qualified, but I have beaten each villain solo and on a team a few times with minimal losses, but it appears they did a very good job designing strategy. Each villain so far has different mechanics and favors different approaches. Taking on Expert Ultron likes Characters such as She-Hulk, Black Panther, and the Aggression aspect more than using these same tools against Basic Rhino. So there are not many identity/aspect pairings which are just universally good. This is promising for the future if villains are designed to be more vulnerable to specific strategies.

I'd say Iron Man / Leadership is way above the rest, though, from what we've seen. First, it hasn't lost a single game. Second, it just gets so much resource and action cheating. Last, it's beaten all villains on expert while in groups or solo and now gets eye rolls from other players like a Rex Murphy deck in Arkham Horror.

Edited by Iuchi Toshimo

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25 minutes ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I'd say Iron Man / Leadership is way above the rest, though, from what we've seen. First, it hasn't lost a single game. Second, it just gets so much resource and action cheating. Last, it's beaten all villains on expert while in groups or solo and now gets eye rolls from other players like a Rex Murphy deck in Arkham Horror.

Yeah, the first time I played Iron Man was with Leadership, and my immediate thought was “guess I’m never playing any other heroes again.”

Futurist is a stupid good ability, and once you get Stark Tower out there it starts to get broken. You can discard a piece of tech, pick a different card, Stark Tower the tech into hand, and use the tech as a resource if you want to, just to Stark Tower it again next turn.

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3 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

You can discard a piece of tech, pick a different card, Stark Tower the tech into hand, and use the tech as a resource if you want to, just to Stark Tower it again next turn.

When using Iron Man I usually mulligan all or most of  my tech since they stay in the discard pile. Then my starting hand is 6 + the tech in my discard pile + what I keep with Futurist. It has backfired on me once when Stark Tower got discarded from a game effect.

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@SpiderMana
"So, do you find that any one aspect outshines the others in play? Is there one that seems like it’s getting left in the dust? 

Obviously it’s still a fairly small card pool and there’s room for things to change; that said, in my opinion Leadership currently has a leg up. Particularly thanks to one card, which is Make the Call. Keeping allies up just seems to be the best use of resources, since they’re generally flexible in use, and stick around for multiple rounds. The ability to pick a hero from your whole discard essentially ups your hand size—not to mention when you add other players’ discards."


@FearLord
"The vast majority of my plays are solo, which I think does effect things, but I think the order is probably : 

Leadership - flexible, strong - allies are definitely very strong in the core box scenarios and Leadership has a great range of them, plus recurring the beat ones. 

Justice - best way to manage threat long enough to stabilise the game and build to doing ally your damage swiftly. 

Protection - capable of dragging the game out via cancelling effects, but struggles to advance the win condition. Games run long and close to using in threat. 

Aggression - really dicey solo. Needs to race the villain in damage. 
   

I think multiplayer is currently the only way to make Protection and aggression really viable, and I still think they’re currently lagging behind the other 2..."

 

I also tend to play solo, so my takeaways are generally limited to that arena.

Protection - Very strong for the ability to block encounter cards (Black Widow, Get Behind Me!). Indeed, Protection is the only aspect that can actually prevent the loss from double-scheme on Rhino. Protection's main flaw in solo is that, although it provides great denial/protection, it also means you rely on the hero's mix of cards for offense. 

The default pairing with Black Panther makes sense because of the Retaliate ability, but it does usually lead to a situation where you're deciding the block damage by using defend on Black Panther rather than thwarting away scheme. Widow does have 2 THW, but also only has 2 hp, and her ability provides an incentive not to burn her away just on thwarting.

This means games tend to run longer, even after the engine is setup, it's more of a slow confident grind to victory, since the cards make defeat from damage/surprise encounter cards exceedingly unlikely.

Indomitable is a cheaper more situational Tenacity. I don't love these effects, although they're good for building up your board and break in case of emergency situations.

Power of Protection only gets a benefit on 3/7cards, the fewest of any aspect: Med Team, Black Widow, and Luke Cage. (Leaves out Counterpunch, Armored Vest, Get Behind Me!, Indomitable).

 


Aggression - Combat Training is clutch for burning down the Villain once a deck has most of its permanent cards in play. The downside of Aggression is that several of its cards are fairly minion dependent on seeing value (yes, you can use Chase them Down when defeating the first villain stage...but that's a one off).

Also, the allies are a much less certain value in Aggression (Hulk is at risk of harming your board state, or simply disappearing immediately, making him a more expensive Haymaker. Tigra is fine, but might as well be a blank 1 THW, 2 ATK, 3 hp character without minions to drop.

Because many of the cards are additional attacks, they might come across as redundant, especially when drawn into a hand that has the far better (higher damage total, less expensive) hero attacks.

Power of Aggression has many targets though (6/7; every Aggression card in the core set except Chase them Down costs 2 or more), because the Aggression card set is more expensive than the others: Hulk, Tigra, Combat Training, Relentless Assault, Tac Team, Uppercut.

 


Justice - Mixed bag; Heroic Intuition is pretty critical for Spider-Man who has a low THW stat AND only one THW tool that's dependent on enemy minions being there at the right time (Spider Tracer). But a number of cards are stop gaps that require you to be in serious trouble already (For Justice!). Especially against Rhino, For Justice is going to be wasted compared to say, putting out an ally who can THW the gradual increases in threat that are more typical. 

Interrogation room is also potentially good, but dependent on minions for value. On the bright side, Interrogation Room is cheap and as a permanent helps to thin the deck. Great Responsibility is nearly useless in Solo (less valuable than Emergency even), although it does allow you to effectively cancel an Advance card when in hero form.

Jessica Jones is a lot of potential...that rarely pans out in solo when you're on top of things. Most side schemes, it's super critical to get that out of the game right away and not let them percolate. She's definitely one of those cards that's going to shine more in multiplayer where the odds of multiple side schemes getting into play are way up from drawing at least 4 encounter cards.

Surveillance Team is great, no notes, it essentially prevents the scheme advancing for 3 rounds which stops that threat from sneaking up on you.

Power of Justice works for 5/7: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, For Justice!, Surveillance Team, Heroic Intuition. (Leaves out Great Responsibility, Interrogation Room).

 

Leadership - Card utility depends 100% on draw order. If you don't get an ally right off the bat, you're going to find a lot of these cards are just hole cards, doing nothing but serving as a resource card. That being said, these cards add a ton of value to the allies, even (especially?) the basic ones like Fury. Get Ready basically serves as deal 2 damage or thwart 2 threat. (It gets even better if you have Vision powered up, then it's worth 4 damage).

Hawkeye like Tigra only thrives when there's a lot of minions incoming (See: Ultron), but because of the Triskelion, at least you know he won't be crimping the ally pool. Maria Hill's power is a mild bonus in solo play, and her two thwart is somewhat valuable, but Nick Fury is a better target for Make the Call in solo because he nets you +2 cards for only 2 additional resources, up to 4 thwart AND he'll intercept a block.

Although I like Get Ready and Make the Call well enough, I've yet to see Inspired/Lead from the Front make a truly significant impact (I figure the dream is an Inspired Vision that drops a card for +2 ATK, then gets lead from the front and gets ready twice for potentially 18 damage. At its most expensive (no double resource cards for Vision/Lead) that's a 13 card combo for only 18 damage. (Note: that doesn't include the buff to every other character that Lead from the Front provides, still, not great).

Power of Leadership targets 4/8: Maria Hill, Hawkeye, Vision, Lead from the Front. (That leaves out Get Ready, Make the Call, Inspired, Triskelion)

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I feel they are quite balanced and also very dependent on the Heros with some untapped Potential in the Future. For example, Great Responsibility from Justice seems to be an insane combination with Gamma Slam from She-Hulk, but I feel Aggression has more Synergies with her, meaning that the Villain doesn't even have Time to build up threat. I can also see Protection rivaling Leadership in Ally Management with a growing Card pool, because of beeing able to heal allies consistently.

Right now, I think they are all strong in different settings.

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1 hour ago, Incredibul said:

Right now, I think they are all strong in different settings.

That’s certainly true. I think the main thing I see in Leadership right now is just a flexibility of strength, so it stands out above the rest in that regard.

I’m certainly looking forward to getting a a cycle of expansions out, and being able to try running two decks of the same aspect at the same time without buying another core set.

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Aggression is fine, but it's basically just 'Does your hero need extra single target damage?' It's only got one real utility card with Chase Them Down, and Tigra is a solid minion killer. It'll probably get better as we get other heroes who have the other bases covered but want increased damage output. 

Justice is somewhat similar to Aggression in that it's a patch for handling threat, but handling threat is generally harder for most heroes than hitting things so it's comparatively better than Aggression. I think the Core Set Justice cards will probably actually drop off pretty hard except For Justice!,  once we get better ways to handle threat through other cards. 

Leadership is very solid. Get Ready and Make the Call will probably be staples for the length of the game. The allies are all solid, and can cover a little bit of everything. It's biggest weakness is that it seems like it's shaping up to be the 'expensive' Aspect, so will probably only be viable for heroes with better economy. 

Protection is garbage. Defending is an inherent disadvantage - It doesn't progress a win, limits your options in your turn, screws you on obligations, and REC being better than DEF often makes going Alter-Ego a potentially better option. So having a defensive Aspect is already at a disadvantage, but then they also got weak cards.

Black Widow has way too many negatives, Luke is 'fine' as a blocker but expensive just to soak attacks. Counter-Punch is 'fine' but just a bit of extra damage that requires you to defend. Get Behind Me! really should have been free if it's going to force you to take an extra attack that you likely won't be defending (because you presumably already defended). Med Team is okay due to how allies take damage for acting. The Vest and Indomitable are about the only cards that I'd consider decent at this stage.  The main advantage I guess is that you can skip Widow and it's the cheapest Aspect? 

 

So, I'd say:

Leadership is #1 overall, being good now and the cards likely continuing to be good in the future. .

Justice is #2, but it's due to the need for threat management more than the quality of the cards.

Aggression is #3, but it's due to most Core heroes already having enough direct damage in their kits. 

Protection is a solidly #4, and desperately needs the upcoming packs to get it up to speed.

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20 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Leadership is very solid. Get Ready and Make the Call will probably be staples for the length of the game. The allies are all solid, and can cover a little bit of everything. It's biggest weakness is that it seems like it's shaping up to be the 'expensive' Aspect, so will probably only be viable for heroes with better economy. 

This is a good overview.

I actually had Make the Call in my starting hand last night, along with Vision, so I just discarded Vision as a mulligan to get more resources/options without losing the ability to bring Vision into play if I decided I wanted to pay for him. There’s not really a way to make the card worse, either, because if we get crappy leadership Allies, we just leave them out of our deck, and if we keep getting solid ones, the card gets better.

Having primarily played it with Stark, I can see how it might get expensive for some characters eventually, but that will just balance out the number of Allies/other cards you bring.

 

I’m getting seriously pumped to actually have some deck-building options. I’m so happy that Leadership is first, because I enjoy it, and I’m looking forward to seeing Protection get a boost from Ms. Marvel hopefully.

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I'd counter that all pronouncements that say "this aspect is X" does not justice to this game. 30 games in, mostly in solo, and I haven't even played all the heroes yet, I tend to think that because situations can vary so much, no aspect is always good, nor any is always "garbage".

Take Leadership, for example. To me, with the cards we have so far, that aspect is only as good as Make the Call is in your hand. There was this game where I drew all of them early, before having allies in my discard. This was very suboptimal and I fell behind on the full potential of my deck for a longer time than with any other aspect. Leadership needs a certain order of things to happen, which is fine and when it works, it works **** well. But it's not a panacea. I think Leadership needs an efficient draw engine to shine. You don't have that with all heroes.

Protection "is" not garbage. I would take Luke Cage over Vision almost all the time. His Toughness will often save you. Protection clearly helps you toward your winning condition, because you dish out damage out of turn while yourself avoiding more than you would otherwise. It's easy to see why Black Panther's Retaliate synergizes well with that. The aspect's most efficient combo -- basic DEF + Counterpunch + Indomitable -- opens up your next turn in a way that no other aspect can. If you don't have Indomitable, a hero that can cause substantial damage while being exhausted will not care. Again, that's why Panther works well with that. I assume Iron Man in full suit would also have a good laugh (I haven't played him yet). Now, for sure, Protection means you play a longer game, because this aspect mostly relies on the hero cards to dish out most of your damage, Haymaker notwithstanding. That doesn't go well with all heroes, or players, or situations. But it can work. It does work.

That not all aspects are good in all situations means to me that this game is very well designed. I can't stop playing it! 😃

 

Edited by Ascarel

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2 hours ago, Ascarel said:

I'd counter that all pronouncements that say "this aspect is X" does not justice to this game. 30 games in, mostly in solo, and I haven't even played all the heroes yet, I tend to think that because situations can vary so much, no aspect is always good, nor any is always "garbage".

Take Leadership, for example. To me, with the cards we have so far, that aspect is only as good as Make the Call is in your hand. There was this game where I drew all of them early, before having allies in my discard. This was very suboptimal and I fell behind on the full potential of my deck for a longer time than with any other aspect. Leadership needs a certain order of things to happen, which is fine and when it works, it works **** well. But it's not a panacea. I think Leadership needs an efficient draw engine to shine. You don't have that with all heroes.

Protection "is" not garbage. I would take Luke Cage over Vision almost all the time. His Toughness will often save you. Protection clearly helps you toward your winning condition, because you dish out damage out of turn while yourself avoiding more than you would otherwise. It's easy to see why Black Panther's Retaliate synergizes well with that. The aspect's most efficient combo -- basic DEF + Counterpunch + Indomitable -- opens up your next turn in a way that no other aspect can. If you don't have Indomitable, a hero that can cause substantial damage while being exhausted will not care. Again, that's why Panther works well with that. I assume Iron Man in full suit would also have a good laugh (I haven't played him yet). Now, for sure, Protection means you play a longer game, because this aspect mostly relies on the hero cards to dish out most of your damage, Haymaker notwithstanding. That doesn't go well with all heroes, or players, or situations. But it can work. It does work.

That not all aspects are good in all situations means to me that this game is very well designed. I can't stop playing it! 😃

 

Agreed; one hero I wouldn’t pair with Aggression is Black Panther, but only because Hulk has a huge chance of discarding himself (many wilds).

I’m looking forward to trying Protection Cap and Ms Marvel. 

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I play 2/3-player only.  So far we have beaten Rhino and Klaw in Standard and Expert modes.  Although we keep forgetting allies and heroes can defend for other players.  We will be moving on to Ultron next.

 

I think Leadership is the best, but oddly enough it has the lowest count of solid cards (6)The only solid cards are the 3 Allies (Maria is strong in 3-player but weak in solo) and Make the Call.  I run this aspect with Iron Man who is only Thwarting.  The largest problem is how little use you can get out of the Power of Leadership.  The FAQ on Make the Call helps.

 

Aggression is in the two spot for multiplayer. Nearly every card is strong.  Our Black Panther player plays this aspect.  The worst cards are Hulk, Tigra, and Combat Training.  Our BP player heavily favors Hulk, but I think a Power of Aggression gets plenty of use.  Combat Training can be stronger in another deck that attacks more.  The BP players says he is primarily thwarting and defending in the middle of the game.

 

Justice is next.  We couldnt beat 3-player Expert Klaw until our Spidey Player switched to the Justice kit.  Solid Card count 8 (Heroic Intuition, For Justice, Daredevil, Jessica Jones).  I think Jessica is just barely above the curve and as with most cards wont be a staple as the aspect expands.  Remember to play Heroic Intuition on the Hero that will be thwarting.

 

Protection can be solid in 3-player.  Remember you can defend for other players freeing them up to do what they do best.  When you are playing multiplayer you want to get Combat Training (aggression aspect) on the Protection player to turn on counter-punch. Solid Card Count 10 (Armored Vest, Counter Punch, Indomitable, Luke Cage).  The large problem is how bad Power of Protection is as it only plays one solid card.

 

 

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10 hours ago, IceHot42 said:

The FAQ on Make the Call helps.

What was that? I don’t see anything in the Rules Reference FAQ.

Though I have been trying to figure out how exactly Pepper interacts with Make the Call. Does Make the Call go into the discard immediately as you play it, thus becoming the top resource that must be used if you want to tap Pepper? Right?

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35 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

What was that? I don’t see anything in the Rules Reference FAQ.

Though I have been trying to figure out how exactly Pepper interacts with Make the Call. Does Make the Call go into the discard immediately as you play it, thus becoming the top resource that must be used if you want to tap Pepper? Right?

No, I think the event is still resolving (And therefore not discarded until you’ve paid for the ally in your discard pile.

The thing with Make the Call is the interaction with Power if Leadership. If you play Power of Leadership it will count as 2 resources if you are using Make the Call on a Leadership Ally (but not a non Leadership ally).

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33 minutes ago, FearLord said:

No, I think the event is still resolving (And therefore not discarded until you’ve paid for the ally in your discard pile.

The thing with Make the Call is the interaction with Power if Leadership. If you play Power of Leadership it will count as 2 resources if you are using Make the Call on a Leadership Ally (but not a non Leadership ally).

Yeah, actually I did look up when Events are discarded after posting that. They are technically put into play, and only discarded once they have resolved.

As for the Power of Leadership... that’s how I’d been playing it with Make the Call? I don’t know if the wording ”pay the printed cost” changes things, though?

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20 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeah, actually I did look up when Events are discarded after posting that. They are technically put into play, and only discarded once they have resolved.

As for the Power of Leadership... that’s how I’d been playing it with Make the Call? I don’t know if the wording ”pay the printed cost” changes things, though?

To be clear, that’s the designers ruling on how the interaction works.

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We've only played two player, but here are my thoughts:

 

Leadership is by far the best of the four aspects. Hawkeye is a stupidly good card, even though it takes awhile for all of his damage to be placed. They've also got some solid events, and overall can do everything very well. This is the only aspect where I feel like some of the cards are on the same power curve as the hero cards. Leadership thwarts nearly as well as Justice, and with a lot more damage.

 

Justice is probably second best, namely because thwarting is rather difficult for many heroes. Justice serves as a nice patch to make some heroes more well-rounded. They've got some very decent cards overall as well. Ultimately, thwarting can't help you win, but it can keep the game going long enough to make a dent.

 

Aggression is next, but only barely. There's a lot of sub-optimal aggression cards right now, and they don't deal a ton of damage. Still, blitzing to victory works well in some heroes, and in two-player having that extra damage output can be huge. The biggest problem with Aggression is they have very poor allies in Hulk and Tigra. Tigra is good in Ultron obviously but not great elsewhere. And Hulk is a liability to be truly honest.

 

Protection is the weakest. By far. They just can't advance a win condition. Defending is inherently something you want to do as little of as possible because it doesn't deal damage or remove threat, it just keeps you alive. That said, Med Team is one of the best cards in the game. Think, if you use all of the charges on Luke Cage for example, that's 12 damage to the enemies from one three cost card. That's absolutely insane, even though it's a bit slow. So far the only hero I've found works well with protection is Iron Man. He can ready, making him easier to defend with. He has low health, meaning that protection is a boon to him. And Med Team is useful for firing off a lot of War Machine.

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39 minutes ago, Supertoe said:

Yes but that would involve me actually drawing it and thus remembering it 😂

Fair. I think I’m gonna try some more aggressive builds next, since Leadership Stark—while consistent—is a slow build that largely just holds things off until you’ve got the armor on.

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6 hours ago, Supertoe said:

We've only played two player, but here are my thoughts:

 

Leadership is by far the best of the four aspects. Hawkeye is a stupidly good card, even though it takes awhile for all of his damage to be placed. They've also got some solid events, and overall can do everything very well. This is the only aspect where I feel like some of the cards are on the same power curve as the hero cards. Leadership thwarts nearly as well as Justice, and with a lot more damage.

 

Justice is probably second best, namely because thwarting is rather difficult for many heroes. Justice serves as a nice patch to make some heroes more well-rounded. They've got some very decent cards overall as well. Ultimately, thwarting can't help you win, but it can keep the game going long enough to make a dent.

 

Aggression is next, but only barely. There's a lot of sub-optimal aggression cards right now, and they don't deal a ton of damage. Still, blitzing to victory works well in some heroes, and in two-player having that extra damage output can be huge. The biggest problem with Aggression is they have very poor allies in Hulk and Tigra. Tigra is good in Ultron obviously but not great elsewhere. And Hulk is a liability to be truly honest.

 

Protection is the weakest. By far. They just can't advance a win condition. Defending is inherently something you want to do as little of as possible because it doesn't deal damage or remove threat, it just keeps you alive. That said, Med Team is one of the best cards in the game. Think, if you use all of the charges on Luke Cage for example, that's 12 damage to the enemies from one three cost card. That's absolutely insane, even though it's a bit slow. So far the only hero I've found works well with protection is Iron Man. He can ready, making him easier to defend with. He has low health, meaning that protection is a boon to him. And Med Team is useful for firing off a lot of War Machine.

I think Protection has a lot of synergies that can be fairly helpful to Stark and Black Panther. Panther actually still benefits from defending thanks to Retaliate, as long as he’s able to keep the main scheme threat low from allies/other players. 

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Just now, Derrault said:

I think Protection has a lot of synergies that can be fairly helpful to Stark and Black Panther. Panther actually still benefits from defending thanks to Retaliate, as long as he’s able to keep the main scheme threat low from allies/other players. 

The problem I found with Protection Panther was that A) in general he's a fairly weak hero but B) he lacks much damage from his hero cards. With little damage from hero cards and little damage from protection, how are you winning?

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