*Minor Spoilers* Handcuffs vs Snakescourge rule query

[phoenixbadger 2]

We are playing The Forgotten Age and we're just up to the Depths of Yoth.  (Well... down to the Depths of Yoth anyway.)

I've got Leo Anderson, and part way through the scenario we managed to get some Handcuffs onto a humanoid enemy.

(For easy reference, handcuffs are an item that you play in to your play area, and when there you can use a -> action to evade an enemy using strength (which obviously exhausts the enemy) and you then attach the handcuffs to that enemy. They contain the phrase "If the attached enemy is non-elite, it cannot ready and doom cannot be placed on it"), so effectively they are out of the game, but no vengeance is added to the victory display.

Later on, Leo drew "Snakescourge" from the encounter deck.

Snakescourge says "Treat each of your non-weakness item assets as if its text box were blank.... Forced - at the end of the round: Discard Snakescourge"

We adjudicated rules as follows:

1) The Handcuffs item, even though not directly in my play area still belongs to me, so we decided that Snakescourge applied to that item. That meant that for the whole round, handcuffs remain attached (nothing said to remove them or discard them), but the effect that stops the enemy from readying is ineffective. 

2) So during the enemy phase, the enemy readied as would normally happen, but the handcuffs remain attached. (thematically, the humanoid enemy broke free from whatever it was handcuffed to, but the handcuffs remained attached to one of their wrists).

3) At the end of that round, Leo discarded Snakescourge due to the forced effect on that card. The text on handcuffs now becomes valid again, but the enemy is now already active and nothing says to exhaust the enemy or discard handcuffs. (thematically it is still running/slithering around with a handcuff tied to one wrist)

4) It then Hunted us for a number of rounds, with the handcuff still attached to it. 

5) Eventually Ursula Downs managed to evade it successfully, using her agility as normal for evade. The enemy was then exhausted, and would remain exhausted due to the text on the handcuff. (Thematically, Ursula used her nimble agile tricks to tumble around the humanoid and managed to tie it to some kind of ancient handle/stalagmite/iron bar/grating.)

I have a few questions:

i) The main one "Is that a sensible adjudication?", and if so... some follow on questions:

ii) While the enemy was running around with handcuffs on (part 4 above). As they were Leo's asset, while they are attached to an enemy at his location, could he have activated the -> ability on the handcuffs (and therefore use his own strength to evade again). (Thematically that makes sense too).

iii) Does that imply that Leo could use one set of handcuffs repetitively to evade multiple humanoid enemies in one location (using his strength of 4 instead of his agility of 1), attaching them to different enemies each time, but only the final one  ends with the handcuffs attached being unable to ready? (That feels a tiny bit clunky?)

iv) During section 4, while the enemy is running around with handcuffs still attached to one wrist, but snakescourge has been discarded. Technically the rules say that no doom can be attached to that enemy (thematically that doesn't feel quite right, so maybe a FAQ update changing the phrasing to something like "If the attached enemy is non-elite it cannot ready and while exhausted, doom cannot be placed on it.

 

Many thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by phoenixbadger
grammar

[awp832 447]

i)  I think it's the only sensible adjudication.

ii)  I think so.

iii)  I think so.

iv)  If the card says no doom can be placed, then no doom can be placed,   exhausted or no.

[Allonym 954]

For reference, the full text of Handcuffs is as follows:

"[Action]: If Handcuffs is not attached to an enemy: Evade. Use only on a Humanoid enemy. This evasion attempt uses [combat] instead of [agility]. If you succeed, attach Handcuffs to the just-evaded enemy.

If the attached enemy is non-Elite, it cannot ready and doom cannot be placed on it."

Therefore the answers are:

i) Yes, you ruled it correctly. Leo retains control of Handcuffs even though it is attached to an enemy (per the FAQ, 1.14 Control of Attachments), so it is affected by Snakescourge and its text was temporarily suppressed, but came back online when Snakescourge was no longer in play.

ii) No, you definitely cannot. See the text for Handcuffs - the Evade action has the restriction "If Handcuffs is not attached to an enemy". You can't use the ability once the card is attached to an enemy.

iii) No, you definitely cannot. See ii).

iv) Doesn't matter whether the enemy is ready or not - the "cannot ready" and "doom cannot be placed" are not contingent on one another. There's a few different ways for there to be ready (non-Elite) enemies with Handcuffs attached to them, and in all situations they will still not be able to get doom. I see no reason why this could be a problem or would need to be changed in FAQ.

[Assussanni 528]

3 hours ago, phoenixbadger said:

i) The main one "Is that a sensible adjudication?", and if so... some follow on questions:

ii) While the enemy was running around with handcuffs on (part 4 above). As they were Leo's asset, while they are attached to an enemy at his location, could he have activated the -> ability on the handcuffs (and therefore use his own strength to evade again). (Thematically that makes sense too).

iii) Does that imply that Leo could use one set of handcuffs repetitively to evade multiple humanoid enemies in one location (using his strength of 4 instead of his agility of 1), attaching them to different enemies each time, but only the final one  ends with the handcuffs attached being unable to ready? (That feels a tiny bit clunky?)

iv) During section 4, while the enemy is running around with handcuffs still attached to one wrist, but snakescourge has been discarded. Technically the rules say that no doom can be attached to that enemy (thematically that doesn't feel quite right, so maybe a FAQ update changing the phrasing to something like "If the attached enemy is non-elite it cannot ready and while exhausted, doom cannot be placed on it.

i) That all looks correct. "Once in play, an attachment remains attached until either the attachment or the game element to which it is attached leaves play (in which case the attachment is discarded), or unless a card ability explicitly detaches the card." (Rules Reference, Attach To).

ii) Handcuffs' ability begins with "If Handcuffs is not attached to an enemy...", so you cannot activate the ability on Handcuffs once they are attached.

iii) No, for the same reason as (ii).

iv) As you say, the "not placing doom on the enemy" effect does not require that the enemy is exhausted.

I don't think it came up in your game, but it is also worth remembering that enemies exhaust after they attack. So once Snakescourge has gone the enemy would get a single attack in the Enemy phase, exhaust, and then be unable to ready in the Upkeep phase.

[phoenixbadger 2]

1 hour ago, Assussanni said:

 

I don't think it came up in your game, but it is also worth remembering that enemies exhaust after they attack. So once Snakescourge has gone the enemy would get a single attack in the Enemy phase, exhaust, and then be unable to ready in the Upkeep phase.

Hi Everyone. 

Thanks for the replies. Very useful point on the enemy exhausting after an attack, which i definitely hadn't thought about when playing last night. I think its easy to get lazy and not exhaust enemies after an attack and just think of them each getting a single attack against the engaged player ... but it affects stuff like this!

hmmm...  a further flow of logic from that very useful point: So if the enemy moved to my location, engaged me, attacked me, exhausted itself... and remained exhausted due to handcuffs....  It would still remain engaged to me, but permanently exhausted?  It doesn't matter from an Attack of Opportunity perspective because only Ready enemies get an AOO, but if I have a Machete or a Springfield M1903 (and probably many other cards) then their effects change depending on whether you are engaged to the enemy (or also with the Machete, if you are engaged to more than one enemy). Oh and of course it would matter if there was another Snakescourge and the enemy had been following me around wearing handcuffs, ready to attack me straight away.

(I can't believe I didn't notice the "If handcuffs is not attached to an enemy" bit when writing the original post!  Poor research on my part! That additional use only really came to me as I was writing, wondering why I was waiting for Ursula to evade the enemy when there was a perfectly useful set of handcuffs for me to strongarm the enemy into!)

[Allonym 954]

55 minutes ago, phoenixbadger said:

hmmm...  a further flow of logic from that very useful point: So if the enemy moved to my location, engaged me, attacked me, exhausted itself... and remained exhausted due to handcuffs....  It would still remain engaged to me, but permanently exhausted?  It doesn't matter from an Attack of Opportunity perspective because only Ready enemies get an AOO, but if I have a Machete or a Springfield M1903 (and probably many other cards) then their effects change depending on whether you are engaged to the enemy (or also with the Machete, if you are engaged to more than one enemy). Oh and of course it would matter if there was another Snakescourge and the enemy had been following me around wearing handcuffs, ready to attack me straight away.

Yes, it would remain engaged with you unless and until you disengage from it in some way (via card effect or by Evading it). The same effect can occur if you Handcuff an enemy and then engage it manually (via the Engage action or card effect).

As you say, this can be disadvantageous, as with Machete, Springfield, Telescopic Sight, Moment of Respite, Sneak Attack, etc., but can also be highly beneficial - the enemy will move with you but can't attack you, so you will always have an enemy to get the boost from Scene of the Crime or use Interrogate. A very thematic (though rather dark) interaction that works particularly well for Roland Banks is to Handcuff an enemy, drag them to various locations so you can get clues with Scene of the Crime and Interrogate, then when they have outlived their usefulness, execute them (using Alice Luxley or just an attack) to trigger Evidence! and Roland Banks' ability for even more clues.

[phoenixbadger 2]

43 minutes ago, Allonym said:

Yes, it would remain engaged with you unless and until you disengage from it in some way (via card effect or by Evading it). The same effect can occur if you Handcuff an enemy and then engage it manually (via the Engage action or card effect).

As you say, this can be disadvantageous, as with Machete, Springfield, Telescopic Sight, Moment of Respite, Sneak Attack, etc., but can also be highly beneficial - the enemy will move with you but can't attack you, so you will always have an enemy to get the boost from Scene of the Crime or use Interrogate. A very thematic (though rather dark) interaction that works particularly well for Roland Banks is to Handcuff an enemy, drag them to various locations so you can get clues with Scene of the Crime and Interrogate, then when they have outlived their usefulness, execute them (using Alice Luxley or just an attack) to trigger Evidence! and Roland Banks' ability for even more clues.

I like it when the mechanics all work together to make a great thematic feel, and yes, dragging an O'Banion gang member from the Dunwich Legacy to squeal on his gang, using the clues he's given you to make him a scapegoat, and in a the final desperate coup, murdering him to cover-up his tracks! Nothing like a good character going slightly off the rails and becoming unhinged in Arkham 🙂

[awp832 447]

dang, i should have read the card before answering.  =p.