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Vontoothskie

Guessing wing locations in epic?

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So i noticed a weird thing with wings in epic: you're suposed to move the wing and then, if a ship bumped, move the bumped ship back to its staring location and perform the wingleaders manuever from there. 

Since doing that means puting the whole wing back it seems super problematic, particularly with how bump prone dense tables can be. Sometimes this could be avoided by eyeballing, no big deal.  but this is gonna come up a fair bit if youre flying multiple wings or whatever.  I playtested this on my table while learning the new rules and it took me way too long to do and i wasnt satisfied I hadnt changed the positioning by accident.

So has anyone run into this in a real  game yet? if so could you describe your experience?

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I think what you're suppose to be doing is the following sequence of events...

1. move the wing leader, if the wing leader bumps move them back along the template until they fit

2. lay out the Wing Tool

3. move the first wingman ship in the Wing one at a time, marking their current position if you suspect they would be bumping.

4. If the wingman did would be bumping if placed in the wing, move them as if they had dialed in an identical maneuver to the Wing Leader, following all rules for bumping as normal

5. Repeat in sequence for each ship in the wing

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3 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

move the first wingman ship in the Wing one at a time, marking their current position if you suspect they would be bumping.

I suspect you should probably always get into the habit of marking 'in case' - especially for the last ship in the wing - as it's 'floating' and there's no easy way to recover its starting position if it bumps unexpectedly (especially if the wing leader didn't fully execute its manoeuvre!)

If there are any other ships in the wing who've not moved yet, then it looks like standard '1' speed templates can be used to recover the starting position if needed.

 

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out how to fly striker wings with adaptive ailerons. It is not going well - Duchess is proving crucial for her ability to turn the dratted things off!

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I suspect you should probably always get into the habit of marking 'in case' - especially for the last ship in the wing - as it's 'floating' and there's no easy way to recover its starting position if it bumps unexpectedly (especially if the wing leader didn't fully execute its manoeuvre!)

That's a good point. I don't have enough Rebel Alliance ships to form even a 3 man wing, yet. When I pick up Saw's Renegades I'll be able to form a Wing of T-65's. I could field a Wing of imperial ships featuring a Tie Advanced X1 and two tie fighters. But that would be the entire squadron :)

Edited by Faerie1979

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Did a game today and Im having to reset the wimg a lot.

I may just make a template  the shape of the whole wing to place ahead of the wing to check for bumps.

just seems like a big thing when blockers are so prevalent in X-wing. like flying a handfull of lone blockers to screw wings up renders wings kinda pointless

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Maybe Strategic Commander is low-key really good for helping wings maneuver. I haven't tried it yet, not it keeps presenting itself as an option. Like, "If only I had equipped Strategic Commander..." And the devs must think it's hot stuff because Captain Needa does the same thing but with an extra charge.

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

Did a game today and Im having to reset the wimg a lot.

I may just make a template  the shape of the whole wing to place ahead of the wing to check for bumps.

just seems like a big thing when blockers are so prevalent in X-wing. like flying a handfull of lone blockers to screw wings up renders wings kinda pointless

It would be easier to have an un-used small base to check to make sure the ships fit in the wing block before you move any of the ships after the wing leader moves.

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4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I may just make a template  the shape of the whole wing to place ahead of the wing to check for bumps.

I'm mildly surprised the kit doesn't come with an extra wing tool.

2 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

It would be easier to have an un-used small base to check to make sure the ships fit in the wing block before you move any of the ships after the wing leader moves.

But really this ^ is the most elegant solution. Keeping a blank base around is a pretty good idea even for standard games sometimes.

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3 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Keeping a blank base around is a pretty good idea even for standard games sometimes.

Agreed.

 

 

Wings are going to be interesting to fly. And even more so if you're prepared to split up a wing.

Remember:

  • Wing leader activates
  • Wingmen are moved into formation around the wing leader
    • They count as performing the same manoeuvre
    • They get their perform action step as normal

If you really want to prove a point, you can use a wing leader to 'slingshot' stuff up the board. Imagine, for the sake of an over-the-top example, an OS-1 missile boat wing:

  • Wing leader activates
    • Performs a speed 3 bank
    • Performs a speed 3 bank SLAM the other way
    • triggers Afterburners to perform a speed 1 bank boost back the first way
  • Wingman activates
    • Repositions to formation of the wing leader, counting as performing a speed 3 bank
    • Performs a speed 3 bank SLAM
    • Uses advanced SLAM to acquire a target lock and enable OS-1 Arsenal Loadout with advanced proton torpedoes on a target in the enemy deployment zone
Edited by Magnus Grendel

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4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Wingman activates

  • Repositions to formation of the wing leader, counting as performing a speed 3 bank
  • Performs a speed 3 bank SLAM
  • Uses advanced SLAM to acquire a target lock and enable OS-1 Arsenal Loadout with advanced proton torpedoes.

 

Problem, the that wouldn't likely work in the order you are thinking. Here is the order of events according to the rules reference.

Quote

 

Wing Leader Actions:

  •  After executing a maneuver, the wing leader performs an action as normal. However, certain actions a wing leader can perform have additional effects on the wing:After a wing leader performs a (SLAM) action, each of its wingmates without (SLAM) on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting), and each of its wingmates with (SLAM) on its action bar gains a disarm token
  •  After a wing leader performs a (cloak) action, each of its wingmates without (cloak) on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting).

 

It also says the following are the only actions a wingman still in formation can take:

Calculate

Evade

Focus

Reinforce

Lock

So the order of events would have to be Wing Leader activates and moves, then uses Afterburners triggered by the actual move on the dial, then wing leader activates SLAM. Remember that SLAM can only be done during the Preform Action step. At this point any wingmen with SLAM are moved into position based on their spot in the formation (ignoring the fact that they didn't have Boost), while anyone without SLAM splits from the squadron and preforms the originally dialed in movement. Anyone still in formation is probably considered to have used SLAM, so has no action left. Anyone who had to split from the Wing can preform any action on their action bar.

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1 hour ago, Faerie1979 said:

Anyone still in formation is probably considered to have used SLAM, so has no action left. Anyone who had to split from the Wing can preform any action on their action bar.

I don't think this is accurate because when the wing leader boosts, the wingmates aren't treated as having performed a boost action. The Star Wings in the example can still lock and fire ordnance. They don't even need the OS-1 title! They just can't SLAM or reload without splitting from the wing first.

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16 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

It also specifically states that those with SLAM get the disarm token when they are put into position. Thus implying they did have to use SLAM.

It doesn't say they skip their action step, only that they get a disarm token.

Same thing with leaders that boost - it doesn't cost the rest of the wing their action, but they do follow along.

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28 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I don't think this is accurate because when the wing leader boosts, the wingmates aren't treated as having performed a boost action. The Star Wings in the example can still lock and fire ordnance. They don't even need the OS-1 title! They just can't SLAM or reload without splitting from the wing first.

Actually, they need the title to fire their ordnance since they have a disarm token. Agreed that they do have their action and can use it to lock though, as the rules are written.

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2 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Aren't titles Unique, meaning only one ship in your squadron can use a given title?

Not all titles are unique(see: IG-2000). Though in this case it's actually a "configuration" not a title, and it's not unique or limited.

Os-1 Arsenal Loadout

While you have exactly 1 disarm token, you can still perform (torpedo) and (missile) attacks against targets you have locked. If you do, you cannot spend your lock during the attack.

Add (torpedo) and (missile) slots.

 

Edited by Cerebrawl

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Whether you can double SLAM the Wingmates or not is kinda irrelevant because the double disarm will stop them from firing since OS-1 only allows an attack if you have "exactly 1 disarm token" so you won't be slingshot-ing with SLAM and attacking in the same round. It could still be used as an ultra-blocking maneuver, but your slingshot slammers will be left out to dry 😕

...Unless the Wingmate is Lt. Karsabi. Since you can effectively Slingshot SLAM exactly one Gunboat, you better make that attack count.

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Here's a thought, if the wingman ships aren't counted as having used their action to preform a SLAM, then wouldn't that mean they can't get target lock via Advanced SLAM?

Also, Double SLAM wouldn't be an option to begin with. If the wingman had SLAM, they kept up with the wing leader. If not, they got left behind. But if they kept up with the wing leader, they can't use SLAM because that's not one of the allowed actions for wingmen.

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16 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Here's a thought, if the wingman ships aren't counted as having used their action to preform a SLAM, then wouldn't that mean they can't get target lock via Advanced SLAM?

They don't need Advanced SLAM, they can just use their regular action.

16 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Also, Double SLAM wouldn't be an option to begin with. If the wingman had SLAM, they kept up with the wing leader. If not, they got left behind. But if they kept up with the wing leader, they can't use SLAM because that's not one of the allowed actions for wingmen.

Correct.

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2 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

They don't need Advanced SLAM, they can just use their regular action.

I was referring to the following idea:

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Wingman activates

  • Repositions to formation of the wing leader, counting as performing a speed 3 bank
  • Performs a speed 3 bank SLAM
  • Uses advanced SLAM to acquire a target lock and enable OS-1 Arsenal Loadout with advanced proton torpedoes on a target in the enemy deployment zone

 

@Magnus Grendel was going on the idea of the wing leader does a complicated string of maneuvers, including using SLAM. Then the wingmates after being re-positioned into formation use SLAM them self to scoot forward in a speed 3 maneuver, gaining target lock via Advanced SLAM.

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1 minute ago, Faerie1979 said:

I was referring to the following idea:

@Magnus Grendel was going on the idea of the wing leader does a complicated string of maneuvers, including using SLAM. Then the wingmates after being re-positioned into formation use SLAM them self to scoot forward in a speed 3 maneuver, gaining target lock via Advanced SLAM.

Can't. Voluntary splitting is during the end phase only, and wingmates are not allowed to SLAM, any scenario where they'd be forcefully split cause them to lose their action.

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2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Can't. Voluntary splitting is during the end phase only, and wingmates are not allowed to SLAM, any scenario where they'd be forcefully split cause them to lose their action.

I'm aware of that. But I suspect that Magnus Grendel hadn't been aware of it at the time of posting.

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It’s even worse for the wingmates if you slam. The slamming rule Simply states you split. You don’t get to do the original dialled maneuver and you move at the end of the engagement phase. The dialled in maneuver is only allowed if you bump.

From Wing Leader Actions:

“After a wing leader performs a slam action, each of its wingmates without slam on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting), and each of its wingmates with slam on its action bar gains a disarm token.”

From Forced Splitting:

“Due to forced splitting that occurs after the Planning Phase and before the Engagement Phase, it is possible that a ship might not have a maneuver dial assigned to it for the Activation Phase. If a split ship does not have a dial assigned in the Activation Phase, it does not activate as normal. Instead, at the end of the Activation Phase, it must execute a [2 straight] maneuver, skip its Perform Action step, and gain one stress token.”

From Moving Wingmates:

“If a wingmate cannot be placed in formation because it would overlap another ship, or because it would leave the play area, the wingmate splits from the wing (see Forced Splitting). Then, it returns to its previous position and executes the wing leader's revealed maneuver (obeying normal overlap rules if necessary). Then that wingmate skips its Perform Action step. See Appendix: Wing Overlap Diagrams.”

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