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flatpackhamster

Can't see the value in Col. Jendon, can somebody help me out please?

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He allows to double attack with one heavy hitting unit, e.g. Maarek Steele or Darth Vader, thus doubling the value of one key unit, he doesn’t really benefit from non unique units. you ideally want a squadron which has some effect that triggers when it’s attacking and/or ideally costs 20 points or more (Vader or steele, as above).

Its also worth mentioning that he was stronger before the relay nerf, allowing a key unit to operate anywhere on the board and also attacking twice.

greetings

Edited by Captain_Nemo

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16 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

He's 20 points of slow weak firepower.  He doesn't have Strategic.  All he does is double-activate one unit.  If you've got 20 points to spend on a fighter, why not spend it on another fighter instead of double-activating one?

He gives you multiple things. 

The most obvious: Relay. Activating two squads from way farther away is great! 

On top of that he gives a lot of flexibility. You need extra anti ship firepower? He double taps your strongest anti ship squad. You need anti squad fire power? No problem, he will double tap your strongest anti squad squad. You want to activate a specific squad ability multiple times that triggers on attacks? You guessed it, he is the man!

16 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

why not spend it on another fighter instead of double-activating one?

He can let other squads attack twice that cost more than he himself cost. For 20 points you can not buy another Morna Kee, but for 20 points she can attack twice!

So for 20 points he is quite survivable with 6 HP and double brace, he can effectively attack from up to range 2 + range 1 far away, he gives you the flexibility to be maximumly strong against whatever target you want to attack, he has relay 2 and he can attack with the power of squads that cost way more than he himself cost.

Edited by LordCola

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To add even more to the comments above, in the mid game you generally don't need a squadron command to make good use of Jendon's activation, because once he is in position normally he doesn't need to move much with the range he has to make another squad attack. So it's almost like he has rogue.

He's one of the best squadrons in the game (as long as you combine him with at least one powerful squadron of course, like Maarek, Vader, Boba, Bossk or Morna for example).

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I see that there is some value, but better than, say, a VT49 which is a similar price?  They both have heavy, and yes, Jendon has Relay, but the VT49 outclasses Jendon in practically every way.  Higher health, similar survivability (Jendon's brace means he can survive up to 12 damage so typically 5 4D attacks compared to VT49 which will survive 3 or 4) but weedy pigeon firepower against squads and hopeless against ships.

 

He appears in the lists of all the winners of the tournaments, and they know much more than me, but I just find it hard to imagine him being THAT good.

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6 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

I see that there is some value, but better than, say, a VT49 which is a similar price?  They both have heavy, and yes, Jendon has Relay, but the VT49 outclasses Jendon in practically every way.  Higher health, similar survivability (Jendon's brace means he can survive up to 12 damage so typically 5 4D attacks compared to VT49 which will survive 3 or 4) but weedy pigeon firepower against squads and hopeless against ships.

 

He appears in the lists of all the winners of the tournaments, and they know much more than me, but I just find it hard to imagine him being THAT good.

Do you think Maarek is good?

Don't you think he would be even better 1 pt cheaper?

That's why he is so good.

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6 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

I see that there is some value, but better than, say, a VT49 which is a similar price?  They both have heavy, and yes, Jendon has Relay, but the VT49 outclasses Jendon in practically every way.  Higher health, similar survivability (Jendon's brace means he can survive up to 12 damage so typically 5 4D attacks compared to VT49 which will survive 3 or 4) but weedy pigeon firepower against squads and hopeless against ships.

Yes, but your comparison only works as long as you view them in isolation. If you only have one squad Jendon is terrible but if you have a strong squad presence you could argue that he is literally the very best squad in the game. Because now Jendons anti squad and his anti ship attacks are both way stronger than that of the Decimator while being 2 points cheaper and having relay 2.

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So long as he's got at least 2 good recipients for his ability, he's pretty great. Being able to bring Relay 2 and double-tapping your best squad for the situation is pretty great. The issue comes when the only decent buddy for Jendon is Maarek - once Maarek gets shot down, Jendon is looking around for buddies to tag in and not really finding a lot of good options. Good Jendon lists have got this figured out. Bad Jendon lists don't. He's not mandatory by any means but he's good.

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16 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Its a myth held by some of the best players that Jendon is good. Most often lists with him in over rely on Jendon and are flawed in this way.

Good topic. 

That is a position I have never heard before. Please elaborate.

How are lists "over relying" on him and in what way are such lists flawed?

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1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

So long as he's got at least 2 good recipients for his ability, he's pretty great. Being able to bring Relay 2 and double-tapping your best squad for the situation is pretty great. The issue comes when the only decent buddy for Jendon is Maarek - once Maarek gets shot down, Jendon is looking around for buddies to tag in and not really finding a lot of good options. Good Jendon lists have got this figured out. Bad Jendon lists don't. He's not mandatory by any means but he's good.

 

This is key. Yes the "Bromance" combo of Jendon + Maarek is amazing, or Morna + Jendon...but then the goal is clear, your opponent will kill Morna. or kill Mareek ASAP. Forget about Jendon. That's why MMJ (Mareek, Morna, Jendon) became popular, or Jendon with literally multiple decent squads. Have Maarek of course, because duh, but also what about killing Jan Ors or Dengar using a Saber Squadron double tap?

 

Quasar I with Flight Controllers activates: Howlrunner, fly's just far enough to get into a nice distance one of where you want Saber...you don't even need to attack with her. Saber Squadron now activates and tosses 6 blue die at Jan Ors. You'll average 3 damage before brace. Move up Jendon and perform the same attack. Another three damage average, = one dead Moldy Crow. And you still have one squad (Maybe 2 with a token!) to activate, toss up a TIE/a or start a bombing run on something. Something like that would put Luke or Ten Numb at 1 health, and then it's MAULER TIME. 

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2 hours ago, LordCola said:

That is a position I have never heard before. Please elaborate.

How are lists "over relying" on him and in what way are such lists flawed?

Gink being contrarian.  Although it is possible to be too reliant on relay, literally anything is bad if you build or play it badly.  Jendon can be flown forgivingly or unforgivingly.

 

Jendon’s printed attacks should almost always be ignored; if you’re using them something has gone wrong.  He’s a relay node and a second copy of your most useful squadron for 20 points; he lets you do things you otherwise can’t do (double snipe with Saber, pop scatter aces and flotillas with Bossk, shred generics twice as hard with Valen, etc.)  He’s often tankier than whoever you’re triggering, and speed 3 + ability range allows him to reach past distance 5 if you have someone to tap.  If your key attackers are alive, he’s arguably the best squadron in the game.

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53 minutes ago, eliteone said:

Quasar I with Flight Controllers activates: Howlrunner, fly's just far enough to get into a nice distance one of where you want Saber...you don't even need to attack with her. Saber Squadron now activates and tosses 6 blue die at Jan Ors. You'll average 3 damage before brace. Move up Jendon and perform the same attack. Another three damage average, = one dead Moldy Crow. And you still have one squad (Maybe 2 with a token!) to activate, toss up a TIE/a or start a bombing run on something. Something like that would put Luke or Ten Numb at 1 health, and then it's MAULER TIME. 

Do keep in mind that Saber Squadron in this example won't have the Flight Controllers buff when it's doing the Jendon attack, as it's not being activated by a squadron command at the time it's making the attack (Jendon is, and he doesn't pass it on). That said, I do enjoy some Saber double taps regardless.

That said, vanilla Sloane fleets tend to suffer from Maarek being the only decent source of anti-ship damage, so once Maarek gets shanked then Jendon has nobody to help him get decent damage into ships (flipping tokens only translates into damage when something else can exploit it, in my experience; I mean actual damage). Getting other quality attacks into squads can help but if Maarek is your only good source of anti-ship attacks then once it's time to go after ships, Jendon is really overpriced. That's one of the reasons MMJ is generally pretty good because both Maarek and Morna are decent against both ships and squads (Maarek a bit more against squads, Morna a bit more against ships) so it gives you that redundancy that helps keep Jendon relevant. It's also really expensive, though...

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23 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That said, vanilla Sloane fleets tend to suffer from Maarek being the only decent source of anti-ship damage, so once Maarek gets shanked then Jendon has nobody to help him get decent damage into ships (flipping tokens only translates into damage when something else can exploit it, in my experience; I mean actual damage).

I find you can treat Maarek like a lategame piece in these situations while using Jendon on Ciena or Valen to hit those anti squadron threats.  As a durable speed 5 squadron before Squall, keeping him alive is doable with 110 points of squad superiority to cover him.  It’s just a matter of how bold you want to be working on the edges.  And if it’s a serious dogfight, sometimes it’s even okay to sacrifice if the fire he draws wins you the fight.

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Jendon is worth every single point he costs. First of all, imperial squadrons tend to be very fast and can easily end up outside your activation range if you want to fully use their mobility. That's especially true if you're not using boosted comms. Some lists can't or won't - my list from last year's polish championships and from worlds had none due to lack of slots and my list from this year's euros only had one to save points. It' also true if you're using comms but plan to increase the distance from the opponent rather than closing in (Tokra's worlds/euros list is a good example). That makes relay very useful. You might use a generic lambda for that, but it's a slow 15 point squadron with a questionable combat value that you frequently won't be able to use anyway because in order to function as a relay it has to stay back. 

Or you might pay 5 points extra and make sure that not only will it be able to attack, but it will effectively have the attack of the strongest squadron you have at the moment. Yes, if you lose your strongest squadrons, Jendon's value drops somewhat but he'll always be at least decent and very often he'll be wrecking stuff by doubling Maarek's or Morna's firepower. I can only recall one game in my entire armada career when Jendon didn't earn his points back. That was when he was 1-shot by flak from an ISD early in the 2nd round. Yes, it IS possible... :P

Edited by Lightrock

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13 hours ago, Snipafist said:

That said, vanilla Sloane fleets tend to suffer from Maarek being the only decent source of anti-ship damage, so once Maarek gets shanked then Jendon has nobody to help him get decent damage into ships (flipping tokens only translates into damage when something else can exploit it, in my experience; I mean actual damage). Getting other quality attacks into squads can help but if Maarek is your only good source of anti-ship attacks then once it's time to go after ships, Jendon is really overpriced. That's one of the reasons MMJ is generally pretty good because both Maarek and Morna are decent against both ships and squads (Maarek a bit more against squads, Morna a bit more against ships) so it gives you that redundancy that helps keep Jendon relevant. It's also really expensive, though...

And this is one problem. Some think, and try, to take out Stele, and hope that is all they have to do. But in trying so, they loose all their squadrons just for this.

I have won so many games where my opponent was so focused on stele, taking him out no matter of the cost, that they lost their whole 120+ points in squadrons just to take out this single defender (losing 120 points is hurting more than killing 21 points 😉). And after this the rest of my squadrons, even if they have only a blue die, could take out ships without any risk.

Jendon, in a Slone list, is way better and more usefull than in a rogue list. if you have quite a lot of rogues, you can change Jendon way easier for a combat squadron. But for Sloane fleet the effect (and i mean the relay) is way to good and usefull.

 

I used jendon mostly because of the relay. A shuttle could do the same, but the bigger bonus from Jendon with his brace tokens and the double attack are (in my experience) better than the 5 less points and the strategic of the shuttle. it is the relay that i really need (and use) in a Sloane fleet.

But on the other hand, you have so many bonus and tricks that you can do with Jendon in a Sloane fleet:
Double attack with Saber or Cienna with 5/6 (6 direct, 5 with Jendon) dice and swarm. Double attack with Valen, without any chance for a counter. Double attack with Stele as insane squadron or ship killer (the ability to use Stele effect on both attacks is insane against ships, and you can kill Flotila, Raider or CR90 in two turns), forcing the opponent to attack a squadron of your choice, while still having enogh offensive power, ...
Even if one of the combat squadrons is being taken out, Jendon still have enough other squadrons that he can push.

However, the bonus from the relay even overweights the other bonus from Jendon. The increased range to activate squadrons is something that is more important, unless you have rogues that don't need this.

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14 hours ago, Snipafist said:

That said, vanilla Sloane fleets tend to suffer from Maarek being the only decent source of anti-ship damage, so once Maarek gets shanked then Jendon has nobody to help him get decent damage into ships (flipping tokens only translates into damage when something else can exploit it, in my experience; I mean actual damage).

BTA with Pryce does decent damage to ships...

17 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Its a myth held by some of the best players that Jendon is good. Most often lists with him in over rely on Jendon and are flawed in this way.

Good topic. 

Don't be impolite in such an important topic. FFG might read your post and actually think Jendon is fine the way it is ... (NERF IT).

Edited by RapidReload

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17 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

Are there any YouTube videos which you could recommend where I could watch Jendon in action?

I guess most videos, where Jendon could really shine, are Sloane lists. Jendon will be good in other lists as well. But as you said, other could do the job as well, and Jendon might not be seen in action this well. But in Sloane lists he might have his insane moments.

 

I know two videos, where Jendon made a big impact (from my view). It is hard to find some, because you cannot search for it directly.

 

Here is one, where you can see Jendon + Stele against a Bright Hope (starting at 1:00:00).
All other squadrons are busy, so Jendon and Stele were free to do their "ship stuff". Taking out the Flotilla, and after it going for the CR90 without any danger of being killed.
2 turns to take out a Bright Hope with Toryn Far was a good deal.

 

On this video, Jendon + Stele were able to take out a Demolither in two turns. With a little help of a few other squadron to strip the defense tokens (starting at 5:49:30).
Without Jendon it would have not been enough damage to take out the Demolisher. And because of Sloane, rogues would have been no option (MY OPINION! 😉😁).

 

I had as well another match (sadly no video), where Jendon and Saber were going in as last/first. 4 free attacks with snipe on insane ranges. This was nice risk free damage.
Also another nice games with Jendon, Valen, Cienna. 3 nice attacks from the two TIEs, and all the opponent could do were attacks on Cienna. For a nice 4 dice swarm counter. Jendon was in this case only a bonus for an extra attack with one of the two TIEs, but still a nice bonus, that no other squadron could offer.

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