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Mandalorian - Spoilers inside, don't read until watched

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@Daeglan Please edit your first paragraph, it doesn’t make sense.

I’m not making any assumptions I’m simply going by established lore, which canon writers still pull from; not guess work from the show, the only concrete information the show gives us is that the ingots are called Beskar, and are referred to as “steel”. The ingots appear to be light weight because they’re a prop and probably are light weight (Star Wars weapons are sometimes resin casts that doesn’t mean they are not supposed to weigh as much as the real world equivalents to the audience); besides warriors and blacksmiths are typically strong, a stack of ten ingots shouldn’t be a big deal for her.

Edited by Eoen

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47 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@Daeglan Please edit your first paragraph, it doesn’t make sense.

I’m not making any assumptions I’m simply going by established lore, which canon writers still pull from; not guess work from the show, the only concrete information the show gives us is that the ingots are called Beskar, and are referred to as “steel”. The ingots appear to be light weight because they’re a prop and probably are light weight (Star Wars weapons are sometimes resin casts that doesn’t mean they are not supposed to weigh as much as the real world equivalents to the audience); besides warriors and blacksmiths are typically strong, a stack of ten ingots shouldn’t be a big deal for her.

That statement right there is pure assumption. The writer of the show (Jon Favreau) as well as many of the directors associated with it have had dealing with "props" not being as heavy as their 'in universe' counterparts. If it was intended to be heavy, the actors would have probably been told to act as though it were.

As for the established lore, canon writers cherry pick and change what they want, so until they actually state something the "established lore" is really just "established rumor" and matters about as much.

Personally I like some things as they were in Legends and some things that they have changed as well, but for the purposes of discussion on what 'is or isn't' Beskar, we will have to wait and see what they choose. From the perception of the the show, it appears to be lighter than Legends has portrayed it. We do not know enough at the moment.

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@Jareth Valar I agree with almost everything you said. I just don’t see any evidence that it appears to be that light, she’s a blacksmith the weight of metal she works with should be nothing to her it can’t be more than 30 pounds and she only holds it momentarily.

The Mandalorian doesn’t do anything more strenuous than he does in episode 2 with his old armour.

Edited by Eoen

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7 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@Jareth Valar I agree with almost everything you said. I just don’t see any evidence that it appears to be that light, she’s a blacksmith the weight of metal she works with should be nothing to her.

That's my point though. There is also no evidence that it is all that heavy either. There just isn't enough fact to go on, just observation.

We see 4 people handling the Beskar in various ways and quantities: the Imperial, the Mando, the Blacksmith and the Guild fixer (Carl Weathers). None of which seem to be particularly put out by manipulating the ingots.

The guild leader even has 2 in a breast pocket, which does not look particularly out of place but should be if he has the equivalent of a sack of potatoes hanging from a pocket.

It may be an oversight, it may not. We'll just have to wait and see. 🤷‍♂️

edit:

As for the blacksmith, what if the weight of the metal she's used to working with is lighter than most...?🤨🤔😉

Edited by Jareth Valar

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11 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

That's my point though. There is also no evidence that it is all that heavy either. There just isn't enough fact to go on, just observation.

We see 4 people handling the Beskar in various ways and quantities: the Imperial, the Mando, the Blacksmith and the Guild fixer (Carl Weathers). None of which seem to be particularly put out by manipulating the ingots.

The guild leader even has 2 in a breast pocket, which does not look particularly out of place but should be if he has the equivalent of a sack of potatoes hanging from a pocket.

It may be an oversight, it may not. We'll just have to wait and see. 🤷‍♂️

The ingots are only about .5 tall tops there not bigger than a wallet and would fit snuggly in a shirt pocket, if they where steel they wouldn’t weigh more than a 2-3 pounds. If there tin they wouldn’t even be half that. Favreau hasn’t directed any of this season we can’t assume he’s micro-managing (he’s even stated he didn’t have time to do day to day stuff as he’s the writer/show runner/producer and working on marvel projects at the same time) the director of this episode so we can’t assume he gave any instructions to the actors. 

I also have deliberately used vague terms such as guestimate, approximately, and revised my weight estimate downward in this thread. I’ve sited the only lore available, which I am not firmly 100% behind, but I now that the Story group people pull from EU material often but not always. 

Edited by Eoen

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

The ingots are only about .5 tall tops there not bigger than a wallet and would fit snuggly in a shirt pocket, if they where steel they wouldn’t weigh more than a 2-3 pounds. If there tin they wouldn’t even be half that. Favreau hasn’t directed any of this season we can’t assume he’s micro-managing (he’s even stated he didn’t have time to do day to day stuff as he’s the writer/show runner/producer and working on marvel projects at the same time) the director of this episode so we can’t assume he gave any instructions to the actors. 

Precisely. We can't assume one way or the other.

As for the weight in the pocket, I was also including an earlier quote that someone posited they were 5 lb. ingots, 1-1.5 lb. ingots (or less) would seem to be inline with what we can see in the show so far.

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15 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

Precisely. We can't assume one way or the other.

As for the weight in the pocket, I was also including an earlier quote that someone posited they were 5 lb. ingots, 1-1.5 lb. ingots (or less) would seem to be inline with what we can see in the show so far.

I am not standing behind guesstimates, my first guess was while drinking coffee and eating breakfast and I was thinking of how much space and weight a dumbbell would take up, and I revised that when I found our they where only 5x2x.5 x 20. If it’s called iron and steel and the legends material says it’s iron and steel it’s only logical to proceed from there.  I don’t think 2-3 pounds is that heavy my phone is about the size of one of the ingots and it weighs .5 pounds, it not solid metal.

Edited by Eoen

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4 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I am not standing behind guesstimates, my first guess was while drinking coffee and eating breakfast and I was thinking of how much space and weight a dumbbell would take up, and I revised that when I found our they where only 5x2x.5 x 20. If it’s called iron and steel and the legends material says it’s iron and steel it’s only logical to proceed from there.  I don’t think 2-3 pounds is that heavy.

I is logical, however we have to remember the enormous amount of illogical 'logic' that is in Star Wars. 😁

My mention of 1-1.5 lb. ingots was reversed from your statement of 2-3 lbs. in his pocket. 2 ingots at 2-3 lbs. would net 1-1.5 lb. ingots.

I don't think 2-3 lbs is that heavy either. The sidearm I used to have to carry was @ 2lb. loaded. When put into a shirt pocket, the shirt and pocket protested much, lol.

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2 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

I is logical, however we have to remember the enormous amount of illogical 'logic' that is in Star Wars. 😁

My mention of 1-1.5 lb. ingots was reversed from your statement of 2-3 lbs. in his pocket. 2 ingots at 2-3 lbs. would net 1-1.5 lb. ingots.

I don't think 2-3 lbs is that heavy either. The sidearm I used to have to carry was @ 2lb. loaded. When put into a shirt pocket, the shirt and pocket protested much, lol.

All the clothes in Star Wars seem to be of better quality than most of us get in retail stores.  Shirt pockets aren’t usually good holsters.

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The third episode also establishes something else related to weight.

You can throw out something as advanced as the yodlings remote controlled egg/crib and it wont be stolen from the trash bin immediately despite being in plain sight in what does not seem to be an affluent neighborhood. Meaning that repulsors are damned cheap. A newborn baby is 5-10 pounds. A one year old about 20lbs. Meaning that the ice cream machine container could easily have repulsors to make it lighter to handle, as could the armorsmith's... uhm... melting-box on a stick. She is shown to use some kind of antigrav tech when forging the breastplate, so there's a precedent about it being used in tools.

Also, regarding Mandalorians and helmets, I read that scene pretty much as a setup for a subversion. I mean, how does a Mandalorian travel outside without being noticed? Perhaps taking off your helmet is akin to putting on a disguise. Kind of like what is implied with Rorschach in Watchmen; the mask is the face, the face is the disguise. 

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The IG's stats (CRB Adversary: Droids) have Brawn 4, so with a willing GM, fluff it as being strong enough.

That said, it is really built more as an NPC than as a PC because of the extraordinary capabilities that would take a very long time to reach organically.

You'd have to go Gunslinger to get the Spitfire talent to allow you to allocate hits to other targets.

In the episode of the Clone Wars when Asajj Ventress boards the ship to rescue Nute Gunray, we see a clone dual wielding DC-15a carbines.

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For dual-wielding?

The book says Ranged (Light) and one-handed Melee/Brawl weapons.

Other than that, carbines typically have shorter range, are lighter, are less expensive, and have fewer hard points.
But no, I don't think there are any particular rules as to what classifies a carbine.

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7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

For dual-wielding?

The book says Ranged (Light) and one-handed Melee/Brawl weapons.

Other than that, carbines typically have shorter range, are lighter, are less expensive, and have fewer hard points.
But no, I don't think there are any particular rules as to what classifies a carbine.

I meant generally one handed shooting but that should also apply to dual wield. I ran a game that had a lot of boarding actions, I aways tried to discourage my players from using long rifles (I mean Star Wars long not normal Rifle long) at short almost engaged range. Mostly because snipers make no sense to me in clone range combat in hallways.

I categorize carbines as hand and a half weapons, but not formally with any rules.

 

Edited by Eoen

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

I meant generally one handed shooting but that should also apply to dual wield. I ran a game that had a lot of boarding actions, I aways tried to discourage my players from using long rifles (I mean Star Wars long not normal Rifle long) at almost short almost engaged range. Mostly because snipers make no sense to me in clone range combat in hallways.

Yeah, I don't think that there are any rules regarding that, aside from the Engaged with Ranged weapons modifiers.

I'd just say add Setback as necessary for close quarters fighting (Short). However, if you are talking E-11s vs. DC-15a, there isn't much difference other than general beefiness. The DC-15a is about the same length and is just a little bit lighter and thinner. I'd definitely say that someone with a DC-15a has an advantage over someone with a DC-15 when it comes to house-to-house/corridor-to-corridor fighting.

As for sniper weaponry, there are a couple options. If something is designed as a sniper weapon, I'd either add the Slow-firing 1 quality (which seems to be the most common solution) or the Prepare 1 weapon quality (which I prefer). Either should amply discourage them from bringing along an IQA-11 or the like. Another option would be to remove the Accurate bonus from rifles (rifle and bigger. Not carbines) because in close quarters they aren't going to benefit as much from precision, whereas a pistol probably would still because it is a different sort of weapon.

Aside from the mechanics of the matter, the players should RP it as "I guess my DC-15 won't be so good in these close combat situations, I should probably break out the DC-17s." rather than just wanting to bring the biggest guns.

Another option is to have close-quarters situations where opponents try to grab the weapon and either wrench it out of their hands or simply turn it away and hold it away. That could encourage the PCs to take something that can't be grabbed as easily.

If the PCs were to add things like the forearm grip or bayonets, where they are building their stuff around close-quarters combat, I might waive or reduce some of those penalties as they are clearly recognizing a (mostly narrative) need and are compensating for it. If they have a forearm grip they will have more control of their weapon, and if they have a bayonet, opponents are less likely to try to grab onto their weapon.

 

Another, more general, point on CQC is that if they are shooting at someone down a tight hallway, you might add a Boost or remove a Difficulty to represent an easier target.

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Having seen westerns myself, e1 didn’t seem that unusual in its pacing. There’s usually a fair few scenes with not very much happening to build tension. 

 

The thing with IG is that it is very fundamentally playing by different rules then most organics, from its twisting head, the fact it doesn’t use cover very much and just it’s movement makes it kinda alien in both its behaviour and motion. That being said: there are armour mods that grant extra arms and just fluff it as extreme strength/counterweights.

 

that and the fight seemed to all take place in what I would consider short to medium range band. might’ve been another reason that the droid didn’t take cover; it was abusing gunslinger to its limit with its carbines and simply had the soak to withstand most attacks while remaining in short range. Just after taking that gun emplacement head on it was running low on wounds so a point blank shot sufficed.

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Or it was a narrative kill.

I think it's a pretty good reflection of the stat block.

One of the things I love about the IG-88-style droids is how they are so fundamentally different from humans. They have 360 degree vision and arms with full articulation allowing them to target everything at once. All too often, fictional robot designs don't take advantage of the advantages inherent in a computer brain.

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