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TedW

Battle Meditation?

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Hello all,

I've been playing both the Republic and the CIS for some time and I have a question that's been bothering me for quite a long while.

Has anyone here used Battle Meditation successfully? As much as I like the idea of coordinating two ships at once, I'm hesitant to field it due to its point cost, Force cost, spending an action to activate it and, most notably, being limited to coordinating non-named pilots in the same type of ship. It also requires a Force-sensitive pilot, so its a point cost on their own and I'm not sure which ship would fit the coordinator role well. On the flip side, extra Action for two generics at once seems to have a lot of potential and a great deal of flexibility.

I'm not saying Battle Meditation is bad, far be it from me, I just can't wrap my mind around it and can't seem to come up with some decent squad idea. If you have some insight and/or experiences to share, I'd really appreciate that:)

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Battle meditation is bad.

It's priced high to prevent coordinating locks for low-init alpha strikes, but the points cost is painfully high even on the lower init ships. The upgrade is in a really awkward spot design-wise - either it adds a pile of efficiency to a squad or it is too inefficient to be worth taking. Right now it's in the latter category.

Even at a lower points cost, you really need to find a compelling use case for battle meditation to be worth using. In the majority of cases, you're moving two actions* from a jedi (a good ship) to generics (probably bad ships). Unless those generics are doing something special, this isn't something you want to do.

*Yes, two actions: a force token on an aethersprite is 90% as good as an action, since it can be a focus, boost or barrel roll.

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20 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Even at a lower points cost, you really need to find a compelling use case for battle meditation to be worth using. In the majority of cases, you're moving two actions* from a jedi (a good ship) to generics (probably bad ships). Unless those generics are doing something special, this isn't something you want to do.

Agreed, that's why I asked, I really can't seem to find use for that upgrade. ARCs seem too expensive, maybe Torrents with Missiles or N1s with Torpedoes? Or alternatively you could field 3 7b Jedi Knights with BM, but how good it is, I can't say, never tried it.

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I've found it can work well, but, with all the necessary things for the trick, it makes for an unbalanced squad. In practice, you could've paid considerably less for a similar effect and a more flexible squad.

I tried BM, CLT Ani with 2 7th Fleet Gunner ARCs in several games, when it 1st dropped. It could set up a surprisingly mobile and powerful alpha. Then Ani in the mid/late game, with half an ARC left to power his bullseye, could knock things fairly silly if everything fell nicely. 

It was all stupidly fragile though, keeping Anakin safe while still R2 from both ARCs, was a dicey business.

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I made an Obi list with Battle Meditation to try, but haven't flown it yet. My idea was to have Obi flying close enough to coordinate, but hopefully avoiding shots, while the two Jedi Knights get shots in and take out ships in the early game. Just a for-fun list, before anyone thinks to harsh on me.

Obi-Wan Kenobi
- Battle Meditation
- R2 Astromech
- Delta-7B

Jedi Knight x2
- Heightened Perception or Angled Deflectors (I was going to try both versions out)
- Delta-7B

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This is a force upgrade that is meant to push a jedi into the support roll. In the right hands it can be great! I want to try this on Ahsoka with three 104th Battalion pilots, but I don't have 3 Arcs.

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1 hour ago, dunhop said:

This is a force upgrade that is meant to push a jedi into the support roll. In the right hands it can be great! I want to try this on Ahsoka with three 104th Battalion pilots, but I don't have 3 Arcs.

Snips already has a Battle Meditation/co-ordinate of a sort as her ability. You just trade the ability for two ships getting an action for a stressed ship or herself getting an action. Battle Med is already kind of inefficient like all of the clone sharing actions stuff adding it to Snips seems even more so. 

10 hours ago, gadwag said:

Battle meditation is bad.

It's priced high to prevent coordinating locks for low-init alpha strikes, but the points cost is painfully high even on the lower init ships. The upgrade is in a really awkward spot design-wise - either it adds a pile of efficiency to a squad or it is too inefficient to be worth taking. Right now it's in the latter category.

Even at a lower points cost, you really need to find a compelling use case for battle meditation to be worth using. In the majority of cases, you're moving two actions* from a jedi (a good ship) to generics (probably bad ships). Unless those generics are doing something special, this isn't something you want to do.

*Yes, two actions: a force token on an aethersprite is 90% as good as an action, since it can be a focus, boost or barrel roll.

Agreed. And your Jedi becomes sort of underpowered and an even bigger target than usual. 

Tried it on a generic jedi knight in an all I3 list. Wasn't a disaster but neither was it a particular boost for the three ARCs. Got double mods a few times. 

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Dont forget, battle med also tethers you to range 2 of low init generics.

OBI: "Yes, lets fly straight for that CIS swarm over there. Wish I could flank, but Im stuck with you bumbling idiots."

 

Whats worse, is when one of your two generics dies, you are just gonna wish you just had synchronized console for 2pts instead.

Its a fun card that finds its way into casual games, and that is where it will remain. Nothing wrong with that. 

EDIT: If I were to give it a go:

Mace Windu (45)
Battle Meditation (8)
R4 Astromech (2)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (3)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (47)
Sense (5)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (4)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 199

Mace can get locks on droid swarms for cluster missiles, or evades + focus against jousty resistance/rebel lists. Obi lets the torrents have multiple focus tokens. I dunno. This would be what I would try and roll with.

Edited by wurms

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I have been using it quite well in the following list:

Obi-Wan Kenobi (47)
Battle Meditation (10)
Delta-7B (19)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Concussion Missiles (6)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

Obi-Wan is staying back to conserve health, while getting the Torrents the locks for the missiles.  The goal is to take out as much as possible with the Torrents before fully engaging with Obi-Wan.  The double modded missile shots at range three has been working well in games for me so far.

The only problem so far has been the amount of MoV bleed the list has.

I found Concussion Missiles to work a lot better than Cluster Missiles due to have range 3.

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4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Actually, Ahsoka handing out 3 actions is quite dope in Epic. Tried it the other day.

Jedi/aces are less valuable than a barrage of heavy fire in Epic (at least in the early game) so it makes sense that battle meditation would be more useful there.

5 hours ago, wurms said:

you are just gonna wish you just had synchronized console for 2pts instead

I never thought I'd see someone say this. You're not wrong, I'm just amused because synchronized console is also a terrible upgrade. I really wish it was workable for passing locks to missile torrents, but once you pay 4+ points for a pair of consoles and buy some missiles you may as well just bring another torrent in the first place. It's not like Targeting Synchroniser sees any play, and synched console is basically the same thing (except you spread the cost around onto multiple ships). Maybe if torrents had a torp slot it would be playable

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I've run two basic lists with BM.

The first was a CLT Jedi Ace and two ARCs with torpedoes, 7FG, and R2. Ram the ARCs in with a focus action, then Ani/Obi comes in a little behind to be safer but still coordinate locks. Jedi shoots with up to 4 dice from Gunners if in range then the Arcs hit with torps to hopefully finish off the target. 3x4 die attacks are decent but the arcs have to survive which I found to be a less than sure bet.

The other squad was CLT Anakin with BM, another CLT Jedi, and two Torrents with Proton Rockets. The idea here is a similar measured approach for Anakin and the Torrents, but now there's also a flanker coming from the other side to distract or harass the side/back of your main target. The Torrents move up and focus then Ani at I6 coordinates barrel rolls to either get bullseye for rockets or to arc dodge and survive. Two flavors of this were Mace as the second and Gold Torrents or Jedi Knight as the second and Blue Torrents with Debris Gambit for that sweet linked white evade :)

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Obi-Wan with battle meditation,  2 bravo's with torps, and Ric Olie fits in a list. Said bravos enter the fight with TL, focus+ evade and obi wan can spend force to re-up the focus.

Its predictable but fun to run.

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5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Same difference. 

Big difference :) Lando crew (rebel) gives a ship a free action if you preformed a blue maneuver. The only cost, preforming a blue maneuver, is something you were already going to be doing.

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23 hours ago, TedW said:

Or alternatively you could field 3 7b Jedi Knights with BM, but how good it is, I can't say, never tried it.

It takes a bit of practice  - you can give Jedi R4-P astromechs and Battle Meditation and take either three with Delta-7b or 4 with Calibrated Laser Targeting (in the latter case you might want to swap one for Sense to help ).

They need a bit of fancy flying - needing to be in range 2 of one another after they move means you can't use your full speed, but they become surprisingly effective heavy fighters, able to get focused/locked turn-on-turn without stress or the need to spend turns recovering force. The ability to 'load' focus/evade/reposition onto that one ship who desperately needs it is good, too.

I'm not convinced it's better than three named jedi with a bigger stock of force charges but fewer 'true' actions, but it's certainly different enough to justify giving a try.

The key trick is 'snowballing' co-ordinates - jedi (1) co-ordinates (2) and (3), who in turn pick co-ordinate for their 'free' action; (2) provides the other two with target locks, (3) provides the other two with focus, and then (2) and (3) generate whichever token they didn't get with their own action.

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15 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Actually, Ahsoka handing out 3 actions is quite dope in Epic. Tried it the other day.

You only get that once though and the one time extra action costs you nine points more over a generic Jedi Knight at the same initiative. I haven't played Epic but logic suggests that Gadwag is right and the big alpha at the outset is more important in Epic. And I think he hits it on the head with all of the Republic upgrades here:

On 11/12/2019 at 4:17 AM, gadwag said:

The upgrade is in a really awkward spot design-wise - either it adds a pile of efficiency to a squad or it is too inefficient to be worth taking. Right now it's in the latter category.

I like my Republic models but since I don't do the acey Jedi thing very well I am getting beat in list-building. I can't get any action economy. All the Republic upgrades are really awkward. I defended them initially but I don't think I can any longer.

Cody only gets you something if you miss on someone who shoots early. Your sync consoles only get you something if you don't need to use your locks. Dedicated is also in a sort of no clone's land. Palpatine is too much. Seventh Fleet Gunner is too much. Pro Torps are too much and missiles too and then you're stuck again on the actions. The ships with ordnance not being high enough initiative or the sync console issue or spending the jedi's force and actions on the expensive Battle Meditation.

I think generally the game wants you to play with the "stars" but Anakin is a third of your list before you've given him an upgrade and he doesn't play well with others or you go with the aces squad. 

I guess I need to try more of the I4 pilots together. I have thought there is some sort of combined arms things that needs to happen. Perhaps I haven't quite found it yet. 

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10 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I like my Republic models but since I don't do the acey Jedi thing very well I am getting beat in list-building. I can't get any action economy. All the Republic upgrades are really awkward. I defended them initially but I don't think I can any longer.

Cody only gets you something if you miss on someone who shoots early. Your sync consoles only get you something if you don't need to use your locks. Dedicated is also in a sort of no clone's land. Palpatine is too much. Seventh Fleet Gunner is too much. Pro Torps are too much and missiles too and then you're stuck again on the actions. The ships with ordnance not being high enough initiative or the sync console issue or spending the jedi's force and actions on the expensive Battle Meditation.

I think generally the game wants you to play with the "stars" but Anakin is a third of your list before you've given him an upgrade and he doesn't play well with others or you go with the aces squad. 

I guess I need to try more of the I4 pilots together. I have thought there is some sort of combined arms things that needs to happen. Perhaps I haven't quite found it yet. 

Jedi aces are one of the key strengths in republic right now, so you will have a hard time if you can't fly them effectively. That said, you can still build strong republic lists without them, such as the sinker swarm:

Sinker (clone commander cody) 57pts
Gold Squadron Trooper x4 100pts
Broadside (ion cannon turret, r4 astromech) 43pts

At 200pts, this is a strong list with excellent action economy and decent control to handle aces. It even gets use out of cody - since Sinker can't modify his own attacks, he's probably only plinking in 1 or 2 hits anyway. If the enemy dodges these, cody ensures that the hit goes through anyway on the next attack.

You mentioned dedicated is an awkward upgrade. Reading the text, it clearly seems designed to support jedi, but in practice a well flown jedi ought to be nowhere near their clone wingmen so it's not that useful. However, some players have seen success using it to support sinker for a more defensive variant on the sinker swarm (sinker and five blue squadron protectors with dedicated). By keeping the most important piece of the swarm on the table and straining the expendable torrents, dedicated encourages enemy players to split fire, making their attacks ineffective. Dedicated is actually quite powerful when used in this way, but the real reason it's hard to field is that upgrading to a talented generic is very expensive for the torrent. The talented Y-Wings are a bit closer in cost to the base ship, though.

Something else you might like to try is young Anakin. Yes, he looks bad on paper, but in practice he's actually quite good - he's certainly my favourite n1 pilot. I like to run him with proton torpedoes (or advanced proton torpedoes), passive sensors, and either crack shot or intimidation so he has something to do after the torps are gone. With his force token for double mods, he can hit pretty hard with the torpedoes. He's also fairly durable, can block well, and doesn't rely on going fast all the time like Ric does. R4 astromech is also a good shout for little ani.

As for me, at the moment I'm experimenting with lists using 3-4 jedi and chopper astromech. I don't love playing hit and run, but chopper lets me get in the mix and be aggressive. Once you have 4 jedi you're starting to move a little away from ace play and more towards playing blockers.

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 7:39 PM, gadwag said:

You mentioned dedicated is an awkward upgrade. Reading the text, it clearly seems designed to support jedi, but in practice a well flown jedi ought to be nowhere near their clone wingmen so it's not that useful. However, some players have seen success using it to support sinker for a more defensive variant on the sinker swarm (sinker and five blue squadron protectors with dedicated). By keeping the most important piece of the swarm on the table and straining the expendable torrents, dedicated encourages enemy players to split fire, making their attacks ineffective. Dedicated is actually quite powerful when used in this way, but the real reason it's hard to field is that upgrading to a talented generic is very expensive for the torrent.

So I put the 4x Dedicated BSP Torrent (I only have four) and Sinker in a squad-builder and it comes up 170 points. That is most certainly an awkward total. The only thing that fits is a fifth. I think it is also a bit of getting that fifth torrent that makes it hard to field. Tried upping two torrents to Swoop and Odd Ball but that still left a lot of points and filling them up with ordnance doesn't seem the way to go. 

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Blue Squadron Protector - 29
    Blue Squadron Protector - (28)
        Dedicated (1)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - Blue Squadron Protector - 29
    Blue Squadron Protector - (28)
        Dedicated (1)

ARC-170 Starfighter - •“Sinker” - 69
    •“Sinker” - Wolfpack Veteran (54)
        Proton Torpedoes (13)
        Synchronized Console (2)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - •“Odd Ball” - 42
    •“Odd Ball” - CC-2237 (35)
        Cluster Missiles (5)
        Synchronized Console (2)

V-19 Torrent Starfighter - •“Swoop” - 31
    •“Swoop” - Blue Six (31)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Seems much better going back to the GST versions. 

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