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Noxragnarok

Hero abilities

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Hey guys

Have a question about hero abilities. 

Played a game where the person teaching us said hero abilities are always active irrespective of which side the hero is on. 

The example used was that Captain Marvel can use the card draw ability on her alter ego side without flipping to the Alter Ego. 

Is this correct?

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No. You get the ability on the side you are currently on. You can use both abilities in one turn however by flipping mid turn.

For example, Peter Parker can never use Scientist to pay for a hero action, because he doesn’t have it in hero form.

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Can someone please post the rules reference that says you have to be in the form that has the ability printed on it, to play an action ability that is NOT listed as "Hero" or "Alter-Ego"? There are several references that say "if Hero/Alter-Ego you have to be in that form", but I cannot find one that supports "if neither of those exist" you still have to be in that form.

Because p13 of the Learn to play and p13 of the Rules reference seem to suggest otherwise:

p13 LTP: "If an ability does not specify a form, that ability may be used while the player is in either form."

p13 Rules Ref: "If the action ability is preceded by "Hero" or "Alter-Ego", the player must be in the specified form in order to trigger the ability"

We had a near heated debate over the semantics of this in my game group. The ruling was, If NEITHER of those words (hero/alter-ego) exist, you don't have to be in the specified form to trigger the ability.

Edited by hendersondayton

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You can e-mail Fantasy Flight if your group insists they need a ruling, but it's a basic rule of all card games - you can't use card text that you can't read. While your identity card is (for example) hero side down, that side of the card is not in play and can't be referenced for in-game purposes. This can also be seen and heard in every single demo game from Fantasy Flight dating back to Gen Con.

19 minutes ago, hendersondayton said:

The ruling was, If NEITHER of those words (hero/alter-ego) exist, you don't have to be in the specified form to trigger the ability.


This is correct, but it refers to cards that are in play, which you can read the text on.

Remember the golden rule of games - rules don't tell you what you can't do, they tell you what you can. If the rules don't say you are freely able to pick up your identity card and use abilities from either side, you can't.

Edited by Turan

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3 minutes ago, Turan said:

....but it's a basic rule of all card games - you can't use card text that you can't read....

Good point. I appreciate this comment. But for someone who doesn't play card games often, its not a "basic rule". I read the rules document and take them literally. Based on your comment below, the rules don't say your Identity Card needs to be on the side with the text UNLESS the text specifies "Hero" or "Alter-Ego". As a matter of fact, it actually says you can be in EITHER form if neither of those keywords exist (p13 of the Learn to Play)

4 minutes ago, Turan said:

Remember the golden rule of games - rules don't tell you what you can't do, they tell you what you can. If the rules don't say you are freely able to pick up your identity card and use abilities from either side, you can't.

In my mind, even while in his suit Iron Man is Tony Stark. So, it would make thematic sense that "Tony Stark" could do "Tony Stark things" (like making executive decisions for Stark Industries) while flying around as Iron Man....

 

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4 minutes ago, hendersondayton said:

Good point. I appreciate this comment. But for someone who doesn't play card games often, its not a "basic rule". I read the rules document and take them literally. Based on your comment below, the rules don't say your Identity Card needs to be on the side with the text UNLESS the text specifies "Hero" or "Alter-Ego". As a matter of fact, it actually says you can be in EITHER form if neither of those keywords exist (p13 of the Learn to Play)

In my mind, even while in his suit Iron Man is Tony Stark. So, it would make thematic sense that "Tony Stark" could do "Tony Stark things" (like making executive decisions for Stark Industries) while flying around as Iron Man....

 

Yes, but the text on the facedown side isn’t visible (and therefore is not an option)

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6 minutes ago, hendersondayton said:

Is this the "unwritten rule" that everyone is supposed to know, or is this in the rule book somewhere?

Do you think you can use abilities that aren’t in play? Ie can you play the bottom card of your deck at will??

Edit:

RRG page 2

 Card abilities on hero, alter-ego, ally, upgrade, and support cards may only be used if the card is in play, unless the ability specifically refers to being used from an out-of-play state. Event cards implicitly interact with the game from an out-of-play area, as per the rules of the event card type.

Edited by Derrault

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10 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Do you think you can use abilities that aren’t in play? Ie can you play the bottom card of your deck at will??

Edit:

RRG page 2

 Card abilities on hero, alter-ego, ally, upgrade, and support cards may only be used if the card is in play, unless the ability specifically refers to being used from an out-of-play state. Event cards implicitly interact with the game from an out-of-play area, as per the rules of the event card type.

THIS. This is much more helpful to me. If "face down" = "out of play" then I have something written down to go off of for the correct ruling. 

Again, many people explain rules from a "this is just how it is" point of view or "this is just common sense"....when teaching someone who is NEW to a game (even the entire genre), you cannot use unwritten or common sense rules. It would be like a mechanic explaining something about a car engine that all other mechanics know already and assuming everyone else should too.

 

Edited by hendersondayton

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11 minutes ago, hendersondayton said:

Again, many people explain rules from a "this is just how it is" point of view or "this is just common sense"....when teaching someone who is NEW to a game (even the entire genre), you cannot use unwritten or common sense rules

You're not wrong, and you're also not wrong that the rules don't explicitly say that face down is out of play - this is, for now, an unwritten rule that FFG presumed is common sense to people who have played any card game before. I will point out for your benefit, as you go forward learning these rules:

29 minutes ago, hendersondayton said:

In my mind, even while in his suit Iron Man is Tony Stark. So, it would make thematic sense that "Tony Stark" could do "Tony Stark things" (like making executive decisions for Stark Industries) while flying around as Iron Man

This is a very shaky way to approach games rules. You should never try to figure out how to play a game based on thematic reasoning, go by what the rules say and what is physically possible. If Tony Stark's action text isn't visible to you, there's no rule allowing you to read the back side of your card to resolve its text. That's the really simple answer to the situation.

Edit: I don't mean this to sound like I'm ragging on you, but we're not treating you like someone who is new to the gaming genre because you have over 300 freaking posts on your account!

Edited by Turan

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@Turan I don't feel like your ragging me. You are right, I have plenty of experience with LCGs/TCGs etc. But, when trying to teach someone who has mild Aspergers (very black and white personality....no such thing as "unwritten rules"....if its not written, its not a rule), I need something a bit more concrete than, "this is just the way it is"

I was attempting to approach the question from that perspective, rather than my own.

I appreciate your comments!

Edited by hendersondayton

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