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Mark V Helmet interaction with Crisis Icon

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Howdy!

Recieved my copy a few days ago and loving it so far! Can't wait for the Cap expansion to arrive.

Would just like to get some clarification on a rules interaction if anyone has the time!

 

Iron Man's Mark V Helmet card reads:

Quote

Hero Action (thwart): Exhaust Mark V Helmet => remove 1 threat from a scheme (from each scheme instead if you have the aerial trait).

 

Then the rules for a Crisis Icon on a Side Scheme reads:

Quote

Crisis Icon: While this scheme is in play, you cannot remove threat from the main scheme).

 

So if Iron Man has the aerial trait, how do these rules interact?

My gut is telling me that the Crisis Icon blocks the Mark V Helmet's ability to remove threat from the main scheme? Or does the card text on the Helmet override that via the Golden Rule RE: card text? Would just like to check, especially if there's a rule I've missed somewhere :)

Thanks Champions!

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While there is threat on the Crisis Scheme, you can’t remove threat from the main scheme. If Mark V Helmet removes the last threat from a Crisis Scheme while you have the aerial trait, you can take 1 from the main scheme as well, as you no longer have a crisis and nothing is dictating you have to remove from the main scheme first with the helmet.

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3 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

I'd say you'd try to remove threat from each scheme simultaneously, so the crisis icon would stop you from touching the main scheme.

This would be my instinct as well, although I'm not sure if there's anything explicit in the rulebook that covers this sort of "simultaneous" effect.

 

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Threat on the main scheme can’t be removed if threat is on a crisis scheme.

Also don’t forget that this lcg did the interesting “rule of grim,” where if you have a question and can’t find the answer you resolve it in the worst possible way for you as a player.

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7 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

Threat on the main scheme can’t be removed if threat is on a crisis scheme.

This isn't really at issue.

The question is how you resolve things timing-wise if you remove threat from multiple schemes at the same time.  Do you resolve them one at a time in the order of your choosing (so you can clear the Crisis first, then remove from the main) or is it all simultaneous (meaning the Crisis is still in play when the removal happens)?

Same could apply to other effects as well, such as Black Panther using Energy Daggers to kill a minion with Guard.

There are rules that cover how to resolve different abilities which trigger simultaneously, but nothing that covers a single ability that affects multiple targets.

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7 hours ago, Buhallin said:

There are rules that cover how to resolve different abilities which trigger simultaneously, but nothing that covers a single ability that affects multiple targets.

I think simultaneous resolution is sufficient for this question. If you want to rule of grim it I won't stop you. Or think of it this way, going back to the example of scheme with 2 threat and a crisis side scheme with 1 threat.

Exhausting the Mark V Helmet creates two effects to trigger simultaneously - Remove 1 threat off of main scheme and remove 1 threat off of crisis side scheme. You can choose the order to resolve them, and resolving the side scheme clears it, leaving you free to remove threat from the main scheme. Or you can resolve the main scheme first, which fails because the side scheme is still out. 

I mean feel free to submit a question via a rules submissions form if you disagree, I just don't see the point in making the game more complicated than it needs to be, it can get hard enough already as is. ;) 

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The crisis icon is on a card here, hence Golden Rule doesn't apply.

Reference book says that "Cannot" is an ultimate word, and it cannot be overridden by other stuff. I'd say that a card would have to explicitly say that it ignores such limitations.

Mark V Helmet says "remove 1 threat from each scheme", there's no basis for this to be two separate actions, as such, mechanically they disappear at the same time. And at that point, Crisis icon is still in play, and main scheme will be unaffected. 

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The basis is the rule of simultaneous resolution. Regardless of how you word it in this scenario two schemes have a threat to be removed. Unless you are quite literally using both your hands to remove the threat at the exact same moment you are choosing an order and just don’t want to admit it.

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1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

The basis is the rule of simultaneous resolution. Regardless of how you word it in this scenario two schemes have a threat to be removed. Unless you are quite literally using both your hands to remove the threat at the exact same moment you are choosing an order and just don’t want to admit it.

I think it's worth clarification from FFG. They have at least one other game (Destiny) where similar interactions are operate as Griautis outlined, so it certainly seems plausible it could be ruled as such in Champions.

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3 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

The basis is the rule of simultaneous resolution. Regardless of how you word it in this scenario two schemes have a threat to be removed. Unless you are quite literally using both your hands to remove the threat at the exact same moment you are choosing an order and just don’t want to admit it.

I offered up a similar comment as sarcasm on the simultaneous resource spending, never thought I'd see someone seriously make the statement.

14 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Exhausting the Mark V Helmet creates two effects to trigger simultaneously - Remove 1 threat off of main scheme and remove 1 threat off of crisis side scheme.

This directly contradicts the actual rules.  The simultaneous resolution rule applies to separate effects, which are basically the same as abilities.  You can speculate that a similar rule would extend to different elements of a single ability, but you're speculating at best, and outright inventing rules at worst.  Thanks to the aforementioned resource rule we know the game has at least some truly simultaneous events, which are far more disparate than resolving multiple removals due to a single ability.  Honestly there's more to support the idea that it would be simultaneous than there is to support treating it like different effects, but it isn't strongly defined either direction.

Definitely going to need FFG input, but until then the simultaneous removal (and hence blocked by the Crisis) seems like the most in line with the rules, although that doesn't always mean much where FFG is concerned.

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6 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I offered up a similar comment as sarcasm on the simultaneous resource spending, never thought I'd see someone seriously make the statement.

Clearly sarcasm doesn't translate well. :D 

Well, I will join in the quest for answers and submit a question via the Rules Submission Form. With any luck we will hear from FFG on the issue sometime in the next 6 months. In the meantime the most logical way to play the game and resolve the interaction is to use the Rule of Grim and play it the way you guys are advocating. Even if I disagree I will play this way as well, because if you are right and I spend 6 months playing it the way I think is right that will be a hard adjustment, whereas if I play it the harder way and turn out to be right that will be a nice feeling.

It would be nice if we get a direct answer for once too. I get tired of them answering questions on podcasts or live streams, then a portion of people have heard the right interaction but in a few months when the question comes up again we know the answer but the source is long forgotten and it just confuses people. Have seen that in Keyforge for over a year.

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From when does physical limitations (amount of hands you have), create mechanical interactions. Just because you physically remove them one by one, doesn't mean that mechanically they don't happen at the same time. Same thing with "everything get's 1 damage.". It's a singular moment as far as mechanics are concerned, even if you spend the next 15 minutes manipulating damage tokens to actually make it happen 

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11 hours ago, Griautis said:

From when does physical limitations (amount of hands you have), create mechanical interactions. Just because you physically remove them one by one, doesn't mean that mechanically they don't happen at the same time. Same thing with "everything get's 1 damage.". It's a singular moment as far as mechanics are concerned, even if you spend the next 15 minutes manipulating damage tokens to actually make it happen 

They don’t. The helmet can’t remove a Threat from the Main scheme if there was a crisis on play when the helmet was used. It doesn’t matter that the crisis goes away, it already blocked the thwarting of the main scheme. 

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On 11/5/2019 at 11:18 AM, the eigensheep said:

I think it's worth clarification from FFG. They have at least one other game (Destiny) where similar interactions are operate as Griautis outlined, so it certainly seems plausible it could be ruled as such in Champions.

Clarification received in record time! Usually when I have been wrong about a rules question in a game by FFG it has been because I took the answer that was more punishing to the player. So this time I went the other route because I know how brutal a solo/co-op LCG can be.

In this case, the harder way was correct. Per Caleb Grace and his response to my rules submission form The Mark V helmet removes threat simultaneously, so with the crisis side scheme in play the helmet will not remove threat from the main scheme even though this action is clearing the crisis scheme

That being said I’d still say @Buhallin is correct in that the rules don’t really cover this interaction. While I’m happy to have an official ruling I hope FFG will clarify this better in the next iteration of the rulebook.

 I can screenshot the E-Mail response if desired. 

I finally encountered this exact situation over the weekend. In fact I had the main scheme, a crisis side and a hazard scheme all at once. It was actually fairly easy to clear the crisis scheme so that I could use the helmet to work on both the main scheme and the hazard scheme. Protection Iron Man for the win. :) 

Happy thwarting gang!

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On a similar note, Crisis Interdiction for Captain Marvel removes 2 threat from one scheme, THEN 2 threat from another scheme. I presumed I could remove the last 2 from a Crisis side-scheme and then remove 2 from the main scheme, but I'm actually curious if discarding the side-scheme will interrupt the resolution of Crisis Interdiction. Anyone happen to know how immediately things happen in Champions?

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52 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

On a similar note, Crisis Interdiction for Captain Marvel removes 2 threat from one scheme, THEN 2 threat from another scheme. I presumed I could remove the last 2 from a Crisis side-scheme and then remove 2 from the main scheme, but I'm actually curious if discarding the side-scheme will interrupt the resolution of Crisis Interdiction. Anyone happen to know how immediately things happen in Champions?

Because of the word “then” I think you’d be safe here. To me that doesn’t imply simultaneous. 

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5 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Clarification received in record time! Usually when I have been wrong about a rules question in a game by FFG it has been because I took the answer that was more punishing to the player. So this time I went the other route because I know how brutal a solo/co-op LCG can be.

In this case, the harder way was correct. Per Caleb Grace and his response to my rules submission form The Mark V helmet removes threat simultaneously, so with the crisis side scheme in play the helmet will not remove threat from the main scheme even though this action is clearing the crisis scheme

That being said I’d still say @Buhallin is correct in that the rules don’t really cover this interaction. While I’m happy to have an official ruling I hope FFG will clarify this better in the next iteration of the rulebook.

 I can screenshot the E-Mail response if desired. 

I finally encountered this exact situation over the weekend. In fact I had the main scheme, a crisis side and a hazard scheme all at once. It was actually fairly easy to clear the crisis scheme so that I could use the helmet to work on both the main scheme and the hazard scheme. Protection Iron Man for the win. :) 

Happy thwarting gang!

Called it. 

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